Pep,
Who you rate the highest Pep, Klopp or Tuchel?
- Thread starter 432JuanMata
- Start date
A few comments about the quality of the Barca side at the time.
Strange because all we hear these days is that they were already a great team and Shannon from Scunthorpe could have done what he did.
No mate. You are talking sense and truth and nobody want to hear that. I am sure they didn't have answer either. They tried to downplay pep hence talking this Klopp has no money.
.Only deference between Klopp and pep was Klopp bought some very good players at average cost but became superstars for their team(salah and mane) then also leaking goals for fun then brought in defender goal keeper for world record fee at that time then only they started to challenge and win things.
And also the famous meltdown of Klopp s Dortmund in his final year. The trend was repeating for Liverpool last season too. Nobody wanted to talk about it too.
People yet dismissed pep s Barcelona record as given. At least give that man some respect for what he did with barca.
Also I think wherever pep managed leagues the country he represented in league tend to do well international tournaments on those times.
Spain,Germany and England have core players in the teams also coached by pep. It's just only my personal view though. For Spain barca players for Germany Bayern players even for England city players. So he do some thing right with players he rated.
Pep if you have enough money and want to dominate the league.
Klopp if you are an underdog and want to punch above your weight (and do well in Cup Competitions).
Tuchel below these two with a mix of qualities.
All of the players they have signed are good value for money Jota, Fabinho, Thiago etc.
Have we done any of that? (Now we actually do with Sancho, Bruno etc.)
We have been crying about our midfield since... instead we sign Alexis.
Klopp if you are an underdog and want to punch above your weight (and do well in Cup Competitions).
Tuchel below these two with a mix of qualities.
Well, but it takes great vision to identify key needs, come up with the right players to sign and also not be afraid to pay for the exact right players.
All of the players they have signed are good value for money Jota, Fabinho, Thiago etc.
Have we done any of that? (Now we actually do with Sancho, Bruno etc.)
We have been crying about our midfield since... instead we sign Alexis.
Ofcourse it does but this narrative that he's been penny pinching against the tide couldn't be further from the truth.
He hit a ceiling with the pre VVD team and needed heavy investment (in the defensive side) to take it further, if that's was Pep it would have been the "final piece of evidence required that he's a chequebook manager".
It has to be Pep, Klopp and Tuchel.
Don't think any manager/club is going to be able to replicate the football Pep's Barca played. The combination of finding the right manager at a time the academy produced first team worthy players, many of who were world class in their positions, add to that they were comfortable playing a brand of football many teams didn't have an answer to on their best days, then to top it off they had the best best player to ever kick a football.
That's not a team that can be assembled.
Don't think any manager/club is going to be able to replicate the football Pep's Barca played. The combination of finding the right manager at a time the academy produced first team worthy players, many of who were world class in their positions, add to that they were comfortable playing a brand of football many teams didn't have an answer to on their best days, then to top it off they had the best best player to ever kick a football.
That's not a team that can be assembled.
If you look at the net spend and the salaries, Liverpool is more comparable to Tottenham than City (or United).
Also he didnt invest heavily. He got one CB and one goalie. Both very good and expensive ones, but thats it. He hit a ceiling and bought exactly what he needed.
There are men who go for a nice Patek and a classic Benz in the garage and there are men who own 10 designer suits, 20 watches, designer perfumes and a collection of 20 cars.
He won a CL and a PL. Competing against the likes of Bayern, Madrid, City etc. Compared to these giants Liverpools net spend and wages are laughably low.
Exactly.
Tuchel set you up successfully against City before, but that was without doubling down on the bus-parking, and without fielding Lukaku.
I honestly believe that it would have been better to leave Lukaku out for that game and add someone creative on the ball. And, as a hot take, I'll say that generally the addition of Lukaku will prove not solely beneficial for you (not denying the qualities he adds..), but also in certain aspects detrimental to your play.
It might also have been the moment when James had to go off, when Tuchel decided to go even more defensive, with the addition of Thiago Silva and Acpilicueta moving to wing back, that might have tilted the balance and choked your play.
On the other hand, City's pressing was on another level this time around, maybe it was too impressive for your players so they didn't dare to play out anymore. I seem to remember the best chance for you, in the first half, came after you for once took your time, and had the nerve, playing out the back in a very, very risky manner and suddenly had space to attack.
They have a massive wage bill, don't they? Also, the net spend isn't really the point here, they hit gold with Coutinho but yeah overall the past years have spent a lot of money. Not comparable to Tottenham in that regard.
You have included a quote which kind of implies it was a great team, just not really gelling (which I think is accurate) really at that time you'd be hard pressed to say they didn't have the best or second best squad in the league:
I personally don't think anyone has much criticism of him for his time at Barca - certainly everyone would say that is still his best ever team though. I think what I find most weird is there's a certain section of fans who seem to think he essentially created tiki-taka and ignore how clever Pep was with his timing (which is a constant so far throughout his career) when you think he didn't just take over a team and then impose his style, he'd already been working with many of them in the youth team and even playing with some of them. Cruyff, LVG, LVG again and then Rikjaard essentially meant that from Cruyff in '88 to Guardiola coming in during 08, that 17 of 20 seasons had been under total football disciples of varying extremes. Lo and behold, you then have a raft of highly technical players all coming through over that period: Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol, Valdes all debuted under LVG, Marques (I think, might have been Antic stint)& Messi under Rikjaard and Busquets under Pep. That isn't to take away from what he did but it shows the importance of tactical continuity and planning and is part of how Enrique's team then went on to beat a number of Pep's records (but not his overall trophy haul). If you were to score Pep at Barca he'd be a 9/10 purely because there is no such thing as a 10
, however at Bayern and City would that score be so high?Why does it have to be black and white? Pool obviously spent big on VVD and Alisson, they got a hugely inflated sum for Coutinho and overpaid (back then) for both of those players, too. If City wanted him, I am 100% sure they'd have gotten VVD instead but they (as most other top clubs) didn't want to pay 75m from some unproven Southampton defender. Pretty sure you'd have gotten Alisson over Pool too but decided to pay even more for Kepa instead...
They spent a lot of money, but that's still absolutely nothing compared to what both Manchester clubs were spending in the same period. Chelsea was also working on a budget comparably until last year. Credit where it's due.
Genuine question, no WUM. In the last five years how many people honestly think City would have won LESS league titles if Klopp and Pep were at opposite clubs? (Klopp at City and Pep at Liverpool)
Klopp won would have literally won them all. Imagine his first XI with City's depth. Disgusting to even imagine it.
That's not how the word literally works.
I'm going to bite, and say "me".
Excluding all ifs and buts, simply due to the fact that Pep, in 12 years of coaching (I exclude his sabbatical year) has won his league 9 times. As a league-winning coach he's simply unrivalled.
I have to assume that he would have managed to express this quality also with Liverpool.
The wage budge is not comparable to Spurs but the actual spend is.
But he might not have won a league at all given the budget Klopp has had at Liverpool.
Just checked. Pools wage bill is lower than Citys and ours but higher than Arsenals. Comparable to Chelsea really. I wrongly assumed their wage bill was lower. But still their bill is a step down from Uniteds and Citys.
Well they lost their best player (and Suarez before that) and conducted shrewd business.
But they had to sell to invest.
City or PSG dont have to care, they can buy and buy and buy, they can afford some misses and keep buying. That for me is a cheque book club.
Same how Dortmund can sell Sancho for 100m but need to be very careful to reinvest properly.
I think Pep at Pool would have it harder than Klopp at City.
I dont think Klopp's City would be as dominant as Pep's in the league. On the other hand i suppose Klopp might have won a CL at City.
Pep at Pool we really dont know, because we never saw him manage an underdog. (Doesnt take away from his achievement to create domestic juggernauts that are close to perfect).
That assumption is not more realistic than assuming that he'd have performed in the league even better than Klopp, which he has done in all but one season, and not just in the PL.
I hate to admit it but Klopp,
His team will run through brick walls for him and has a good personality too, annoying as feck as a rival fan but you can imagine if that was your coach you'd be behind him every single step of the way,
They will never replace him with a better manager in the next decade, that Liverpool team isn't really that good with the exception of a few players but Klopp can get them playing like a machine, we really dropped a ball not making this guy our manager.
His team will run through brick walls for him and has a good personality too, annoying as feck as a rival fan but you can imagine if that was your coach you'd be behind him every single step of the way,
They will never replace him with a better manager in the next decade, that Liverpool team isn't really that good with the exception of a few players but Klopp can get them playing like a machine, we really dropped a ball not making this guy our manager.
That's fair enough, I think Klopp with KdB, Silva, Sane, Sterling, Aguero, Kompany, etc, at his disposal, and of course a further billion to buy VvD, etc, later would quite literally have win it all too.
Pep would have had a three year rebuild before he could even attempt to overhaul the 90+ points Klopp would have been achieving every season.
I know it's hypothetical but not a million miles from reality. So I hope this helps other people on here with their evaluations.
Well it is, Klopp took a Liverpool team to Cl final in his second season and was a couple Karius blunders from having a good chance of winning it.
At city Karius would have already been replaced with a top class keeper, anytime Klopp has had to spend money he has spent well and most big signings have been a success, Guardiola has never had to work on a budget he’s spent 200m on fullbacks alone, he hasn’t proved he can operate outside the realm of his team being the best highest spending team in the league ever since Barca.
You give Klopp more money and it’s hardly going to be a negative.
The question was not about the CL or cups, but about the league.
And in terms of league football, the football Pep has his teams play is simply a superior strategy. He never relies as much on willpower as Klopp does, he never needs back to the wall heroics in big games. His football maximizes the probability to win the most points in a large number of games against various, mostly weaker opponents. The record is pretty clear, isn't it? 100 points in the PL? That's not a matter of squad quality as much as of a superior winning strategy.
Now, high profile CL away games, that's an entirely different matter
That 100 is literally a single point above pools maximum so far under Klopp. That really isn't saying much.The question was not about the CL or cups, but about the league.
And in terms of league football, the football Pep has his teams play is simply a superior strategy. He never relies as much on willpower as Klopp does, he never needs back to the wall heroics in big games. His football maximizes the probability to win the most points in a large number of games against various, mostly weaker opponents. The record is pretty clear, isn't it? 100 points in the PL? That's not a matter of squad quality as much as of a superior winning strategy.
Now, high profile CL away games, that's an entirely different matter
I think you'll find a hypothetical world works any which way we please.
It's still the league's historical record. The point is not to say that Klopp isn't a great league manager in his own right, the point is to counter this notion of Pep's league dominance being mainly due to his squad superiority (which is implied in the hypothetical of Klopp winning so much more titles with City, as if Klopp was the only one of the two who brings something extra to his team).
If that were the case, other managers with a similar squad superiority would have reached those point tallies too.
It all feeds back into the trope of Barry from Sheffield being able to manage City successfully (which is why Ole is doing so well at United with similar spending)
Yep.
Ultimately, the fact is that Pep keeps winning the league again and again (La Liga, Bundesliga, Premier League), while others like Klopp (or, say, Mourinho), win them once in a while.
(Conte could be a contender in terms of league consistency but he never stays around, does he? So there goes the consistency.)
People can conjure up all kinds of fantasy scenarios, but in the real world Klopp and Pep have spent 7 seasons competing alongside in the same leagues, and Pep won the league in 5 of those, Klopp in 1.
That's why I say it is an entirely plausible scenario that Pep might have won more league titles with Liverpool than Klopp did.
Then let's simplify it for your sake.
Would Pep have ever reached 99 points with Liverpool in my hypothetical five year scenario?
Would Klopp have reached 100 points (or more) with City in the same five years?
You should be called Mr Context. Just for the irony. But if you're trolling us all, then bravo.
Possibly, who's to say?
It's funny how you set it up, you're clearly insinuating it's a foregone conclusion that Klopp gets more out of his teams than Pep. It isn't. The record doesn't support it.
You're trying to devise the hypothetical that your manager somehow comes out of this more glorious, but I'm not falling for it.
I don't see why either scenario is impossible. They are both excellent managers and coaches.
Let's say you have a similar setup where Pep is forced to stay at Liverpool for 5 years. He is restricted to the similar spending constraints Klopp had. Would he be able to hit 98/99 points with Liverpool in consecutive season? I don't see any reason why it's an impossibility. He did win 2 trophies and made it to the CL final without a striker.
You should be called Mr Context. Just for the irony. But if you're trolling us all, then bravo.
And if I claim that Klopp's underdog approach, play the same team every week, heavy metal football might have completely failed to stick at City with this City squad, what would you say?
You're the one posing hypothetical questions, but if they're answered with reference to what reality offers, you're offended..
Still no though
That doesn't really make sense, but ok.
I think Klopp is the best coach around at this time when you look at context, if you disagree no worries.
They are all good coaches and resources available to them are not the same. The comparsion is pretty meaningless to be honest.
Lets assume genuinely Poch given what he did with low budget Spurs making top 4 consistently in the toughest league sometimes top 2 and making a CL final was to take over PSG with Neymar Mbappe imagine how he would win the Ligue1 and CL without even trying. right?
There is a reason Klopp avoid those type of high pressure jobs where he has to win and high profile players. Imagine having Aguero gegenpressing like Firmino
Tell that to the Ronaldo vs Messi thread
Needs a poll
Poch is a good example actually and kind of lends itself to what Hansi is saying I suppose. Though I'm sure Klopp will secretly be insulted being compared to Poch.