Who you rate the highest Pep, Klopp or Tuchel?

[adexkola]

This specifically pertains to the league, where, fatigue and injuries are huge factors for most teams and they will see a sizeable decline in output or performance without one or two key players. City is the only club this does not apply to - they can even lose their best player and still be challenging for the title - Pep's coaching is a fraction of the reason why they don't have single point failures, the remainder is obviously in the fact they have an absurd depth to their squad at league level.

Centering on this paragraph. I think it's a conscious decision by City to focus on depth instead of having a top loaded squad like PSG. That is a strategic choice that has proven wise, and more resilient to fixture pile ups and injury crises.

I know it's cliche to say City can field 2 world class XIs. Let's see whether this holds true.

XI1

Ederson

Walker - Dias - Laporte - Cancelo

Gundogan - Rodri - B. Silva

Mahrez - De Bruyne - Foden

XI2

Steffen

Stones - Fernandinho - Ake

Zinchenko - Palmer - Grealish - Mendy

Jesus - Sterling - Torres

XI2 is not a world class team. One of it's members is in jail. Fernandinho is at the cheerleader stage of his long career. There's a youth player in midfield. Sterling has struggled with form for over 2 years. Grealish hasn't made a significant impact yet so he doesn't really count. That leaves a group of solid players who provide good rotation depth or challenge XI1 players in bad form. But I think the depth in the City team is overstated in terms of actual depth and quality. And it says a lot that his team can go on long winning runs without a striker, or with Zinchenko at LB, or Gundogan at DM, or...

Any other top team can choose to have that depth. Instead they elect for stars in the first 11. Well the problem with that is if your few stars get injured, you're fecked. That shouldn't be a ding on Pep.

 

[KingCavani]

Centering on this paragraph. I think it's a conscious decision by City to focus on depth instead of having a top loaded squad like PSG. That is a strategic choice that has proven wise, and more resilient to fixture pile ups and injury crises.

I know it's cliche to say City can field 2 world class XIs. Let's see whether this holds true.

XI1

Ederson

Walker - Dias - Laporte - Cancelo

Gundogan - Rodri - B. Silva

Mahrez - De Bruyne - Foden

XI2

Steffen

Stones - Fernandinho - Ake

Zinchenko - Palmer - Grealish - Mendy

Jesus - Sterling - Torres

XI2 is not a world class team. One of it's members is in jail. Fernandinho is at the cheerleader stage of his long career. There's a youth player in midfield. Sterling has struggled with form for over 2 years. Grealish hasn't made a significant impact yet so he doesn't really count. That leaves a group of solid players who provide good rotation depth or challenge XI1 players in bad form. But I think the depth in the City team is overstated in terms of actual depth and quality. And it says a lot that his team can go on long winning runs without a striker, or with Zinchenko at LB, or Gundogan at DM, or...

Any other top team can choose to have that depth. Instead they elect for stars in the first 11. Well the problem with that is if your few stars get injured, you're fecked. That shouldn't be a ding on Pep.

You make it two world class XI's by mixing and matching. Not segregating the first eleven from the next eleven.

 

[adexkola]

You make it two world class XI's by mixing and matching. Not segregating the first eleven from the next eleven.

Try that approach, I think you'd struggle, for this reason: the only undisputed WC players in the squad based on form over the past year/18 months are: De Bruyne, B. Silva, Rodri, and Dias. There will be a huge drop off of performance from Rodri to Fernandinho, in any defense that doesn't contain Dias, any team without Ederson... plus I'm struggling to find 11 players for the XI2 as is!

 

[footballistic orgasm]

You make it two world class XI's by mixing and matching. Not segregating the first eleven from the next eleven.

That's been mostly Pep's first 11 this season except for the attack where he rotates more between Mahrez, Jesus, Foden, Grealish, Sterling & KDB who also occasionally plays in the middle 3.
So even by mixing the front 3, it wouldn't change anything he said about City's 2nd 11.

This idea that they somehow have 2 interchangeable teams is pure BS.

 

[Ixion]

Klopp unfortunately. Good thing he doesn't have Pep's resources.

 

[BlueHaze]

I just can't see any actual evidence that this is true, nor that there's any reason other than guesswork and a disliking of the guy to believe so.

Pep went to Barca who, for what it's worth, were definitely underperforming before he turned up. He was brilliant there, so he literally had his pick of several top teams. Great work gets you good job offers, nothing odd about that. Three years later he went to City because he was offered a great squad, huge budget, the chance to work with some friends who would give him more freedom than his previous jobs. Of course the best managers want to manage the best clubs... people who are at the top of their fields want to be employed by the best companies, This applies to any profession and in no way is an indicator that they don't have courage or aren't good enough.

Let's not forget that Klopp was sacked by Dortmund after a really bad spell. City wouldn't have touched him with a barge pole at the time, but Liverpool were a mid-table team back then so a recently fired Champions League manager was a perfect fit for them. When a big manager loses some reputation and gets sacked they have to take a slightly less desirable job so for you to paint it as Klopp going to Liverpool because he's brave is a bit strange, they were his best option at the time because he'd been fired and his stock was the lowest it had been in half a decade.

I'm sure Pep has the balls to go to a team like Liverpool. He would probably have the balls to go to a team like Leeds. The trouble with that idea is that there is absolutely no reason why he'd ever want to do that other than to prove people on the internet wrong (who have frankly made up their minds about him anyway).

That's the thing though, he never would and until he takes on a challenge like that I will admit I am wrong. I do not dislike him where did I say this? Literally the first sentence in my post was that he is a fantastic manager but I simply have the opinion that what Klopp did at BvB and Liverpool is far more impressive. So Pep has won league titles with the financially doped City. Even Pellegrini did that. And Mancini before him.

Even at City where he has had an insane amount of resources he has failed in the CL, as he did at Bayern. He had a chance last season and lost to Tuchel's Chelsea, whereas Klopp won a CL with Liverpool and utterly smashed Pep's City (5-1)
on the road to the final the season before.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Only Zidane if i'm not mistaken has won 3 CL as a coach, other coaches who have also coached great teams haven't won more than 2 just like Pep (who has reached more semi finals than any other coach), so i don't see how he's underperforming compared to anyone else.
I thought the PL was the best and most competitive league in the world, why shouldn't he be also judged by what he's achieving there.
Almost every manager (including Zidane who's won the CL 3x) have said it's more difficult to win the league than to win the CL because winning the league requires consistency, while the CL likes any other cup competition requires various parameters (goal difference and away goal rule, luck, etc). It definitely just isn't about tactics.

And concerning the fact that financial firepower is the biggest differentiator, why hasn't United been able to compete then? Why isn't Everton competing with the big 4 ?

You’re asking questions you know the answers to, United have spent a lot (not as much as City) but I’ve never said Pep isn’t a top coach, United have thrown money around with zero plan and random managerial appointments and even then, just to further reprove the financial firepower point, we’ve won some trophies under every manager whose had top experience.

PL is the best league in the world, the money is draining the talents out of other leagues and that’s evident in the managers who are now here as well. He is judged on his PL record and it’s obviously a good one but he wasn’t brought in to win what Mancini and Pellegrini had already won.

PL is about consistency, of course, so is the CL… but the PL has a lot of easy games for a club of City’s wealth and squad size. You can manage players better. CL knockouts I’d argue is weaker now than I can remember (outside of PL clubs Bayern are the only ones I think clubs really fear, I don’t think PSG are that great) but it’s still usually an elite manager with a squad that is more equal from the QF onwards. Even then City should have an advantage. Now, you can always have a bad game or there can be upsets but Pep has been knocked out by Monaco, Lyon, Spurs, Pool, Chelsea…3 of those I’d say were big upsets and also factor in the manner of the Pool defeat. He’s also had a torrid time in the FA cup (the single time he won it he didn’t play a single big team) so you can logically suggest that outside of Barcelona (where he has one of the GOATs and players all trained specifically in his style of football) he hasn’t had a great record in knock out football and it’s a prolonged trend.

 

[Manchester Dan]

It’s Pep isn’t it. It’s fine to hold the CL against him but if we REALLY believed that was the measure of greatness then there’d be an equivalent thread on here “Who is the best ever?.. Paisley, Zidane or Ancelotti?”. There isn’t because it’s only relevant when it suits the argument. The only 3 managers to win the CL more times than Pep.

Consistency is king and Pep dominates. It’s the same measure that puts Ferguson in the mix when discussing all-time greats, but nobody wants to mention Zidane, because his domestic achievements aren’t good enough.

 

[Bearded One]

I genuinely didn't know about that for some reason, very interesting. Didn't Fergie also confirm he enquired about his availability but was knocked back?

If this theory is actually true I wonder where his next destination will be, maybe Milan if they're (like Liverpool in 2015) still struggling compared to their size?

Yes you’re correct and the other one that surprised me was his potential move to Madrid. Perez wanted him at the Bernabau but he refused swiftly. Klopp is a special manager, he knows what he wants and goes for it. Also he has a clear vision of what his team should look like and goes for it all the time. I will pay anything to bring him here.

 

[Bearded One]

You’re asking questions you know the answers to, United have spent a lot (not as much as City) but I’ve never said Pep isn’t a top coach, United have thrown money around with zero plan and random managerial appointments and even then, just to further reprove the financial firepower point, we’ve won some trophies under every manager whose had top experience.

PL is the best league in the world, the money is draining the talents out of other leagues and that’s evident in the managers who are now here as well. He is judged on his PL record and it’s obviously a good one but he wasn’t brought in to win what Mancini and Pellegrini had already won.

PL is about consistency, of course, so is the CL… but the PL has a lot of easy games for a club of City’s wealth and squad size. You can manage players better. CL knockouts I’d argue is weaker now than I can remember (outside of PL clubs Bayern are the only ones I think clubs really fear, I don’t think PSG are that great) but it’s still usually an elite manager with a squad that is more equal from the QF onwards. Even then City should have an advantage. Now, you can always have a bad game or there can be upsets but Pep has been knocked out by Monaco, Lyon, Spurs, Pool, Chelsea…3 of those I’d say were big upsets and also factor in the manner of the Pool defeat. He’s also had a torrid time in the FA cup (the single time he won it he didn’t play a single big team) so you can logically suggest that outside of Barcelona (where he has one of the GOATs and players all trained specifically in his style of football) he hasn’t had a great record in knock out football and it’s a prolonged trend.

Other managers of City won the league with the skin of their teeth and just once but Pep is dominating. If Klopp doesn’t upset him (which he is well able to do) Pep will have his fourth league title in five years. This is not just winning but dominating.

There is not one perfect manager and indeed has been battered in Europe time and again. But when you also consider what he’s already done in Europe without the aid of hindsight, then you cannot possibly argue against what he has delivered.

When you have managers like Pep and Klopp, clubs will practically come begging to have them so they can have their pick of clubs. This allows them choose the project that aligns to their preferences as much as possible so they cannot be criticized for doing so well in their “comfort zone” reason being many other managers were afforded these opportunities but never made a success of the opportunities the way Pep and Klopp have done.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Other managers of City won the league with the skin of their teeth and just once but Pep is dominating. If Klopp doesn’t upset him (which he is well able to do) Pep will have his fourth league title in five years. This is not just winning but dominating.

There is not one perfect manager and indeed has been battered in Europe time and again. But when you also consider what he’s already done in Europe without the aid of hindsight, then you cannot possibly argue against what he has delivered.

When you have managers like Pep and Klopp, clubs will practically come begging to have them so they can have their pick of clubs. This allows them choose the project that aligns to their preferences as much as possible so they cannot be criticized for doing so well in their “comfort zone” reason being many other managers were afforded these opportunities but never made a success of the opportunities the way Pep and Klopp have done.

Im not arguing against him ‘delivering’ whatever that means, he’s literally one of the best managers out there. I’m just saying I personally rate Klopp higher.

 

[Bearded One]

Im not arguing against him ‘delivering’ whatever that means, he’s literally one of the best managers out there. I’m just saying I personally rate Klopp higher.

That’s fair enough and personally I think there’s not much between both but at this moment, Pep would be my pick.

 

[Noot]

That's the thing though, he never would and until he takes on a challenge like that I will admit I am wrong. I do not dislike him where did I say this? Literally the first sentence in my post was that he is a fantastic manager but I simply have the opinion that what Klopp did at BvB and Liverpool is far more impressive. So Pep has won league titles with the financially doped City. Even Pellegrini did that. And Mancini before him.

Even at City where he has had an insane amount of resources he has failed in the CL, as he did at Bayern. He had a chance last season and lost to Tuchel's Chelsea, whereas Klopp won a CL with Liverpool and utterly smashed Pep's City (5-1)
on the road to the final the season before.

1. I'll reiterate that you have no good reason to believe he never would.
2. Pellegrini and Mancini won one title each, that's hardly comparable to the complete domination of Pep's City in terms of both tactical style and trophies
3. Losing to Tuchel's Chelsea is hardly a point against him- great teams lose 1-0 to other great teams all the time.
4. Klopp initially won the majority of matches against City, yeah, but Pep figured them out a long time ago and City have only lost to them once in three and a half years.

 

[ExecutionerWasp001]

As a Utd fan it's probably best that Klopp & Pep are both at their respective clubs rather than Vice Versa.

City definitely missed a trick in totally disregarding Klopp as an option. All clubs need a plan, but in their myopic pursuit of Pep they were oblivious to what was going on around them.

The £1 Billion that's been spent since 2016 was always going to lead to League Titles in the hands of a competent manager. If they'd signed Klopp they would have had a free run at the league & at least couple of CL titles to boot. Pep would'nt have come to the PL to join Liverpool, Utd or Chelsea as he wouldn't have had the financial backing & autonomy he does at City.

Klopp has delivered a PL title to Liverpool which is something i hoped i'd never see. Pep's vast spending power has largely kept him in check though. It would have been alot worse seeing city win 3/4 PL's on the bounce & the CL too.

 

[RUCK4444]

As a Utd fan it's probably best that Klopp & Pep are both at their respective clubs rather than Vice Versa.

City definitely missed a trick in totally disregarding Klopp as an option. All clubs need a plan, but in their myopic pursuit of Pep they were oblivious to what was going on around them.

The £1 Billion that's been spent since 2016 was always going to lead to League Titles in the hands of a competent manager. If they'd signed Klopp they would have had a free run at the league & at least couple of CL titles to boot. Pep would'nt have come to the PL to join Liverpool, Utd or Chelsea as he wouldn't have had the financial backing & autonomy he does at City.

Klopp has delivered a PL title to Liverpool which is something i hoped i'd never see. Pep's vast spending power has largely kept him in check though. It would have been alot worse seeing city win 3/4 PL's on the bounce & the CL too.

Pep would have had almost exactly the same amount of backing here at United (I believe our spend is close isn’t it?) and no manager gets more control over a club than here during that time, much to our detriment.

 

[ExecutionerWasp001]

Pep would have had almost exactly the same amount of backing here at United (I believe our spend is close isn’t it?) and no manager gets more control over a club than here during that time, much to our detriment.

You have to factor in the starting base as well though. There was already the core of a title winning squad when he arrived at City. He spent £300 Mill in his second season which enabled him to quickly rectify identified deficiencies. The Glazers would never sanction this big a spend in 1 window. I don't think we've even spent £200 Mill in 1 window during the Glazers tenure. It would have took Pep too long at Utd to build a title winning squad with the Glazers drip feed spending.

 

[simplyared]

Pep is on a level of his own. He revolutionised Barca. Now he's done the same at City.

 

[adexkola]

City definitely missed a trick in totally disregarding Klopp as an option. All clubs need a plan, but in their myopic pursuit of Pep they were oblivious to what was going on around them.

Massive hindsight, seeing that

1. His last season with Dortmund wasn't exactly awe inspiring
2. There were serious doubts on here as to his ability to manage United (silly even at the time, but still)
3. He never got going at Liverpool (trophy wise) until he made several significant purchases

But we are supposed to believe it's a given Klopp would have outperformed Pep at City? Yeah, ok.

 

[afrocentricity]

I know the German managers are good but isn't Guardiola out in front by a mile?

 

[Schmeichel=God]

Pep
Klopp
Tuchel

 

[He'sRaldo]

To defend Pep a little (and put a bit of a damper on Klopp), remember that Pep has been around for longer than Klopp. His methods have been studied and copied, and in fact he has even had to face some of his admirers who have become world class managers, like Tuchel. That's bound to have an effect on his effectiveness over time.

In addition, Pep's opponents in his CL final wins have been Sir Alex's Man Utd twice, which he accomplished without huge spending. By comparison, Klopp won his only CL against Pochettino's Spurs, after spending large sums on key players. Before that he was considered more of a finals bottler than anything.

Of course there are a lot more things that go into it, but in general I fail to see how Klopp is ahead of Pep, much less miles ahead like some people say.

 

[Gehrman]

Massive hindsight, seeing that

1. His last season with Dortmund wasn't exactly awe inspiring
2. There were serious doubts on here as to his ability to manage United (silly even at the time, but still)
3. He never got going at Liverpool (trophy wise) until he made several significant purchases

But we are supposed to believe it's a given Klopp would have outperformed Pep at City? Yeah, ok.

Klopp had his best players poached by bayern and other big clubs

 

[gajender]

To defend Pep a little (and put a bit of a damper on Klopp), remember that Pep has been around for longer than Klopp. His methods have been studied and copied, and in fact he has even had to face some of his admirers who have become world class managers, like Tuchel. That's bound to have an effect on his effectiveness over time.

In addition, Pep's opponents in his CL final wins have been Sir Alex's Man Utd twice, which he accomplished without huge spending. By comparison, Klopp won his only CL against Pochettino's Spurs, after spending large sums on key players. Before that he was considered more of a finals bottler than anything.

Of course there are a lot more things that go into it, but in general I fail to see how Klopp is ahead of Pep, much less miles ahead like some people say.

It's all about fine margins had Guardiola won Champions league last season against Chelsea I doubt we would even be having this conversation .

 

[Gehrman]

To defend Pep a little (and put a bit of a damper on Klopp), remember that Pep has been around for longer than Klopp. His methods have been studied and copied, and in fact he has even had to face some of his admirers who have become world class managers, like Tuchel. That's bound to have an effect on his effectiveness over time.

In addition, Pep's opponents in his CL final wins have been Sir Alex's Man Utd twice, which he accomplished without huge spending. By comparison, Klopp won his only CL against Pochettino's Spurs, after spending large sums on key players. Before that he was considered more of a finals bottler than anything.

Of course there are a lot more things that go into it, but in general I fail to see how Klopp is ahead of Pep, much less miles ahead like some people say.

Fair fecks to pep especially for improving players, but he had wc players in most positions plus Messi hitting his prime. Klopp had a decent chance in his first Liverpool cl final but karious fecked it up. On his first cl win he overturned the advangte with several key players injuref.

 

[He'sRaldo]

It's all about fine margins had Guardiola won Champions league last season against Chelsea I doubt we would even be having this conversation .

Agreed. Based on their careers thus far Pep is clearly an all-time great, while I'm not so sure about Klopp yet.

To further emphasize the point, Pep holds the points record in both Bundesliga (91) and Premier League (100), and he previously held the record in La Liga (99) which was eventually beaten by one point. That's best manager of all time stuff right there.

I'm not sure Klopp is quite at that level, though he is obviously extremely good himself.

 

[adexkola]

Klopp had his best players poached by bayern and other big clubs

Kudos to you for including "other big clubs", some would have you believe Bayern is the only club picking on Dortmund.

And fair point, but it still doesn't explain how it's a foregone conclusion Klopp would have outperformed Pep at City.

 

[gajender]

Agreed. Based on their careers thus far Pep is clearly an all-time great, while I'm not so sure about Klopp yet.

To further emphasize the point, Pep holds the points record in both Bundesliga (91) and Premier League (100), and he previously held the record in La Liga (99) which was eventually beaten by one point. That's best manager of all time stuff right there. I'm not sure Klopp is quite at that level, though he is obviously extremely good himself.

Agreed Klopp while being a great manager won't be in conversation for best manager of all time based on his career so far but Guardiola even if he doesn't win a thing going forward would always be there or there about .

 

[gajender]

Kudos to you for including "other big clubs", some would have you believe Bayern is the only club picking on Dortmund.

And fair point, but it still doesn't explain how it's a foregone conclusion Klopp would have outperformed Pep at City.

He may or may not have but I am confident Guardiola at Liverpool would have been success you simply can't find a better manager than him for the league, unlike many I don't think Guardiola needs the best players or isn't adaptable he is far more pragmatic than given credit for and he is more than capable of extracting performances out so called lesser players as well like Klopp .

 

[Gehrman]

Kudos to you for including "other big clubs", some would have you believe Bayern is the only club picking on Dortmund.

And fair point, but it still doesn't explain how it's a foregone conclusion Klopp would have outperformed Pep at City.

He went toe to toe with City with some of the highest point records ever and managed to win a CL in his 2nd consecutive final with liverpool. Considering the money spent and players available that's really impressive. Most of the players who have been the key players in Liverpool's succes were hardly world beaters. Not poor, but no one had imagined Salah to become the player he is or Van Dijk to become the best CB in the world. Personally I don't believe that Klopp shunned "easy" jobs, but was geniunely romantic about making Liverpool one of the biggest in the world again.

 

[Gehrman]

He may or may not have but I am confident Guardiola at Liverpool would have been success you simply can't find a better manager than him for the league, unlike many I don't think Guardiola needs the best players or isn't adaptable he is far more pragmatic than given credit for and he is more than capable of extracting performances out so called lesser players as well like Klopp .

With the squad Klopp inherited and the budget avaible?

 

[Cassidy]

With the squad Klopp inherited and the budget avaible?

Yes I think so

 

[Gehrman]

Yes I think so

Hard to say, Pep has only ever inherited stellar squads and he deserves kudos at what he did at Barca who's squad had lost the league twice to Real Madrid before he came.

 

[gajender]

With the squad Klopp inherited and the budget avaible?

Why not it might have been slow process but yes .

 

[redIndianDevil]

Klopp.

 

[Gehrman]

Why not it might have been slow process but yes .

I personally doubt it. But it's a an unknown. For me Klopp is more like Fergie while Pep demands a specialist in every position and is quite rigid in his tactical flexibilty which ends up hurting him. For me no one other than Fergie could do what Klopp has done at Liverpool.

 

[WeePat]

Pep is in Fergie's territory in terms the absolute greats of my lifetime. Not much in it.

 

[Wolf1992]

Pep is in Fergie's territory in terms the absolute greats of my lifetime. Not much in it.

Isn't the PL more competitive now than in the 90s?
I mean i think SAF is one of the greatest, but what Pep is doing seems a bit more impressive cause back in the 90s-until Abramovich bought Chelsea ,PL was far from being the best league, it was clearly behind Serie A and La Liga in terms of quality.

Pep is dominating a PL that is considered by most the best league on the world by a big margin.
Even though Pep needed to outspend his rivals to achieve that.

 

[ExecutionerWasp001]

We are supposed to believe it's a given Klopp would have outperformed Pep at City? Yeah, ok.

I'd say he's already outperformed Pep. Winning a PL title & qualifying for 2 CL finals (winning 1) on the budget he's had compared to Pep is outstanding. Pep has vastly outperformed him in the minor cups but this is down to the squad depth he has. Klopp has nowhere near the depth to compete on 4 fronts so has to bin the minor cups.

I am confident Guardiola at Liverpool would have been success you simply can't find a better manager than him for the league, unlike many I don't think Guardiola needs the best players or isn't adaptable he is far more pragmatic than given credit for and he is more than capable of extracting performances out so called lesser players as well like Klopp .

Guardiola has himself said he needs high quality players to make his system work. He would have never made it work at Liverpool as he wouldn't have been given the budget that he required. It took Klopp a long time (in todays standards) to win a title. Even then it was only possible due to selling Coutinho so he could spend money on the different areas he needed to improve. Guardiola would throw his toys out of the pram if he was told he would have to sell to buy.

Isn't the PL more competitive now than in the 90s?
I mean i think SAF is one of the greatest, but what Pep is doing seems a bit more impressive cause back in the 90s-until Abramovich bought Chelsea ,PL was far from being the best league, it was clearly behind Serie A and La Liga in terms of quality.

The PL is less competitive than it has ever been. It was actually more competitive during our period of dominance. We had SAF on one hand but on the other we were outspent by other clubs most seasons. We really shouldn't have won as much as we did when we were so consistently outmuscled financially. The managers in the PL during our dominant period were also so much better. You had the likes of Allardyce & Pulis at the smaller clubs & then peak Wenger Mourino et al at the bigger clubs.

The PL has become the top league due to the demise of Milan, Barca & Real due to their financial issues. The City & Liverpool of today would struggle against the Milan, Barca & Real of the 90's/2000's.

 

[Bearded One]

He may or may not have but I am confident Guardiola at Liverpool would have been success you simply can't find a better manager than him for the league, unlike many I don't think Guardiola needs the best players or isn't adaptable he is far more pragmatic than given credit for and he is more than capable of extracting performances out so called lesser players as well like Klopp .

There is no proof that Pep cannot pack a bus, he just doesn’t do it because he doesn’t like that approach. Pep doesn’t really need world class players but technically gifted players. It’s why he will sacrifice a great poacher for a forward that can “play football” or a great shop stopper for a keeper that can play ball or even play a midfielder up top. Every world class manager has his preferred profile of players. Even Klopp would usually Favour heavy metal footballers on certain areas of the pitch with a touch of finesse. It’s a matter of choice. Every attempt to downplay what rookie manager Pep did at Barca is laughable.

 

[Bearded One]

I'd say he's already outperformed Pep. Winning a PL title & qualifying for 2 CL finals (winning 1) on the budget he's had compared to Pep is outstanding. Pep has vastly outperformed him in the minor cups but this is down to the squad depth he has. Klopp has nowhere near the depth to compete on 4 fronts so has to bin the minor cups.



Guardiola has himself said he needs high quality players to make his system work. He would have never made it work at Liverpool as he wouldn't have been given the budget that he required. It took Klopp a long time (in todays standards) to win a title. Even then it was only possible due to selling Coutinho so he could spend money on the different areas he needed to improve. Guardiola would throw his toys out of the pram if he was told he would have to sell to buy.







The PL is less competitive than it has ever been. It was actually more competitive during our period of dominance. We had SAF on one hand but on the other we were outspent by other clubs most seasons. We really shouldn't have won as much as we did when we were so consistently outmuscled financially. The managers in the PL during our dominant period were also so much better. You had the likes of Allardyce & Pulis at the smaller clubs & then peak Wenger Mourino et al at the bigger clubs.

The PL has become the top league due to the demise of Milan, Barca & Real due to their financial issues. The City & Liverpool of today would struggle against the Milan, Barca & Real of the 90's/2000's.

Every attempt to place Klopp’s record ahead of Pep’s is reliant on downplaying what Pep did at Barca, making them the most dominant team in a generation. That is not what a rookie manager would usually be associated with doing. There have been so many “new Messi’s” who never achieved their potential. The man guided Messi to become arguably the GOAT the way Fergie guided CR7 to become another GOAT. Stopped the influence of people that could derail him, made sure Messi overcame his recurring injuries and sent packing the more talented players he met. It all worked perfectly and it’s only with hindsight that we can say he took a generational team and conquered with them.

What Klopp has done with Liverpool is very impressive, mind but to place it over and above the best of Pep will take dishonesty on my part for me to concur to. City have got the money - Arab wealth - yes but even when you look at monies spent, because everyone knows City can afford most players, there is a sort of differentiated price system that works against them. I’d argue that if it was City that went for Diogo Jotta, they’d spend considerably more than Liverpool spent and if it was Liverpool that went for a Mendy for example, the price would be closer

The difference in quality of their teams is not considerably much but money spent tends to make it appear like this is the case. Klopp won the CL yes, but Di Matteo did as well. The deciding factor for me goes beyond who won what but if one person dominates the game for a considerable period, then that one deserves the acknowledgment. Pep has not just won, he has dominated wherever he’s been.

Conte won the league in his first season where Pep failed and Klopp didn’t exactly inspire but fast forward to few years Klopp has overtaken Conte. It’s not just a one off event but when you put consider all the events, not explaining some away, then the answer would not be far fetched imo.