That was my point to be honest. Pep has produced arguably the best club side that ever existed so there is only one answer to the ops question.
Who you rate the highest Pep, Klopp or Tuchel?
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Alot of City's spending is on squad depth, which imo isn't even all that important in winning. If he coached pool he could still get alot of the same players that he has at City, just not in the volume he has them. At some point city look like they spend just cause they can, not cause they need to.
It might sound ridiculous but think of it like this, At Barca his squad was never this big and players would simply play more minutes, that's what would probably happen if he coached Pool.
At City quality players spend alot of time on the bench for pretty much no reason outside the fact that they can afford it. It doesn't really make them that much better either outside of helping them during injuries. All City's players are in Pools price range.
Its too soon from a legacy perspective but at the moment he's in the ring with them and coming out on top. He's just beat Pep in the CL final and he's leading the league against both of them. Him not being in the conversation is simply being stuck in the past. Ever since he's gotten first grade resources like they have he's proves he's in their class.
Pep and his City team just a month ago blanked Tuchel's Chelsea. And his team looked like a bunch of amateurs.
Klopp with an absolute mediocre Liverpool team put Tuchel's Dortmund out of Europa.
One off games are not a measure of a coach's greatness. Klopp will fall away from the trophy winners discussion soon because Liverpool's resources are far less than City or even Chelsea.
I mean Tuchel have a stacked squad, but still bought Lukaku. Whereas Klopp's back up striking option is Origi.
Tuchel got his tactics all types of wrong in that game, he had Werner and Lukaku on the field at the same time which I doubt we'll ever see again in a match of that magnitude.
Klopp with this great side couldn't beat a 10 men Chelsea and had to give us excuses about how a man less don't mean much.
One off games decide the biggest competitions in the sport so don't know where you're going with that one.
Since when is the Chelsea squad stacked, not so long ago alot of these players were being laughed at. Chelsea's back up striker is allergic to scoring goals and you think Origi is a problem.
Btw this isn't a one of game. Chelsea are clearly in the title race and it looks as though they'll be there for the long haul. Defensively they are amazing and find score plenty themselves.
I meant to say one-off games should not be taken to justify a Manager's greatness.
Also funny that you say Tuchel made mistakes in the City game, not giving Pep any credit. Same with Tuchel making a 10 man team hard to beat, but it's all Klopp's fault.
The people who were laughing at this Chelsea squad were the same people who thought Salah and Mane would not be that great a success. Good coaches bring the best out of a player.
I agree with you that Chelsea is firmly in the title race. Either they or City will win it. But I find this Tuchel love-in bit nauseating. Chelsea is good defensively, but their GA record is made to look great by Mendy. With any other keeper, Chelsea should have conceded 3 goals against Brentford alone. In fact Brentford has less shots on goal against Liverpool, but scored 3.
Let's wait till Chelsea has a dip in form. That will show how good Tuchel actually is.
Tuchel beat Pep 3 times in a row in a season, in 3 different competitions including the biggest match in the sport and somehow he isn't in his class? See that doesn't make sense. Instead you seem to care so much more with the lone Pep victory.
Chelsea arent stacked, not many of their players are seen as amongst the best in the world. In fact, the ones that are defensive players primarily. Who out of Chelsea's forward players or attackers from midfield are 100million quid players you'd love to have here?
Adapting to adversity actually proves how great someone is. Pep has done twice. Once after his debut PL season, the other last season. Klopp has done it once, when he sold Coutinho. Let Tuchel do that and we can talk about the same class. I have problems with over-the-top statements like "Defensively though, this Chelsea side is one of the greatest ever". He has barely been coaching Chelsea for one year.
A best team does not need best players in all positions. How many 100 million quid player do City or Liverpool have? Chelsea's midfield is the 2nd best in league in terms of quality, after City. And probably, first in terms of depth. Their forward line is not the best, but they are not too shabby either. Havertz is a very good player. Lukaku is a flat-track bully who will score against minnows. Werner is a good player as well, Liverpool tried to sign him.
Anyway, I feel that I am not taking this discussion anywhere. Let's wait for the season to end, and then we can talk about Thomas Tuchel, the greatest thing since sliced bread.
I was going to put this list for the same reasons. Pep and Klopp were winning titles a decade ago (roughly). Tuchel's relatively new and, before 4 years ago, had just won a cup with Dortmund.
That's right! Wreck it Ralf is the name. You heard it here first!Yeah. Daddy is coming to crash the party his disciples have
There is no adversity worse than when tuchel took over though. Down to 9th in table winning just three in last 8 league games. Looking forward the elimination from cl facing a.madrid. What pep s adversity in his first pl season you talked about.
These sort of discussions are always difficult as it is hard to tell how each individual would do in the circumstances they inherited. One thing that can be agreed is that they're all very good to great managers.
One thing however I would say about Tuchel, and probably the thing that is most concerning, is that he has so far been very good at taking players that most people thought were average and turned them into very handy players that can either act as good squad options or first team players for a team fighting for the title/win the CL. That isn't something that can be said for Pep, who needs to build his squad in his image. Klopp has also done this to an extent but Tuchel has done it without really buying.
I know Chelsea had a strong team/squad but you also have people like Chabolah who was playing Champo football/battling relegation in France and integrated him straight into Chelsea's side.
One thing however I would say about Tuchel, and probably the thing that is most concerning, is that he has so far been very good at taking players that most people thought were average and turned them into very handy players that can either act as good squad options or first team players for a team fighting for the title/win the CL. That isn't something that can be said for Pep, who needs to build his squad in his image. Klopp has also done this to an extent but Tuchel has done it without really buying.
I know Chelsea had a strong team/squad but you also have people like Chabolah who was playing Champo football/battling relegation in France and integrated him straight into Chelsea's side.
Klopp beats Pep by a mile, peps spending is on another level than Klopp and he took over one of the best Barcelona sides ever, a good Bayern side and a already great City side with lots of money to buy 2-3 good players for each position.
Understatement of the year so far. He took over the triple winners who still hold the record for most points in the Bundesliga. Heynckes' Bayern side of 12/13 are amongst the best ever.
No doubt Pep is a great coach who has a defined style that he wants his team to play but it’s very difficult to judge just how good he is exactly because he has never been in a situation that he has had to actually manage through. For example; lack of funding, joining a declining club, lack of decent playing staff etc.
Klopp has shown he can build and develop a elite starting 11 from a pretty average squad when he joined Liverpool. His teams play fast attacking football (which for me is more entertaining than peps possession football) and he has actually had to work within limits, like I said before Pep has never had to do that.
Tuchel has a little less pedigree than the other 2 but so far he has shown that he can make a squad that’s practically not his, not only feasible but entertaining too. Out of the 3, he has built the most fluid attack whilst having the strongest defense. Anyone claiming his Chelsea side to be defensive (looking at you Poch, you ****) hasn’t watched them.
Overall at this moment in time, based not just on personal achievement but also shown the willingness to go to teams that aren’t at the top of the food chain and demonstrate their ability to manage the club as a whole- Klopp is undoubtedly the best.
We all recognize Pep is a fantastic coach but he has not been in or shown his ability to run a club that’s not the best in their country. Who knows, if his Club was bankrupt orat the 5th best team in the league and having to work within certain constraints he might just have a breakdown, we just don’t know what he is capable of, good or bad.
Klopp has shown he can build and develop a elite starting 11 from a pretty average squad when he joined Liverpool. His teams play fast attacking football (which for me is more entertaining than peps possession football) and he has actually had to work within limits, like I said before Pep has never had to do that.
Tuchel has a little less pedigree than the other 2 but so far he has shown that he can make a squad that’s practically not his, not only feasible but entertaining too. Out of the 3, he has built the most fluid attack whilst having the strongest defense. Anyone claiming his Chelsea side to be defensive (looking at you Poch, you ****) hasn’t watched them.
Overall at this moment in time, based not just on personal achievement but also shown the willingness to go to teams that aren’t at the top of the food chain and demonstrate their ability to manage the club as a whole- Klopp is undoubtedly the best.
We all recognize Pep is a fantastic coach but he has not been in or shown his ability to run a club that’s not the best in their country. Who knows, if his Club was bankrupt orat the 5th best team in the league and having to work within certain constraints he might just have a breakdown, we just don’t know what he is capable of, good or bad.
Klopp is the best coach in the world and its really not that close unfortunately.
It's not like we scored 5 goals past you, it was a close tie. That Barcelona team was still a beast when they decided to turn up, let's not pretend otherwise. It's not like Guardiola had to rebuild you anything, the core of the squad under Rijkaard and Guardiola was all the same, with the exception of Deco and Ronaldinho.
Nobody said it was not a great job, you're the one putting words in my mouth. All I said was that he had a complete team capable of winning, it just needed a good manager. Am I wrong? Were Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, Puyol, Abida, Eto'o, Henry and Pique somehow shit players that Guardiola turned into world class?
Has anyone said otherwise? I said you gave us a good go.
Because they had a bad season? But it's absolutely foolish to discount that almost the same squad had won the CL and a league title. They also finished third, not 6th or something. Let's compare this to our situation at the moment. Our team is horribly underperforming, but it certainly isn't as bad as the position and results suggest. If Guardiola, or Klopp, or Tuchel or even a decent manager in Rangnick come, they'll all vastly improve it without buying new players or anything, just by virtue of having a good tactical brain, man management skills and the idea of how the team should play and be drilled. Same stuff happened at Barcelona. Rijkaard is obviously no Ole, but he is certainly a vastly inferior manager to Guardiola. But we're not comparing Rijkaard and Guardiola here, we're comparing Guardiola and Klopp and at the moment - Klopp has simply proven more with less resources than Guardiola has.
There's also a certain bad trait Guardiola has in that he hates rebuilds. At Barca he bailed out when the going got tough and the invincible Barca team started feeling mortal. At Bayern he did much of the same thing. Now at City he is already putting out fliers that he is leaving. That's not a good trait for a manager when he either doesn't have faith in his capabilities to rebuild a team or he just can't be assed.
This is a bit of a joke. Liverpool's net spend during Klopp's tenure is 100 million, City is 600 million. Klopp, more or less, works within the confines of a very rigid budget. For example, they sold Coutinho for 200 million and brought VVD and Allison with that money. In comparison, Pep can buy VVD and Allison, bench them if they don't work out, and buy 2 players for the same price and nobody would care because money is not an issue for him. The magnitude of the jobs is not even remotely comparable. Klopp has to content himself with signings of Origi, AOC and Thiago while Pep can buy every wonderkid from the market and still don't care because the sheikh will always provide him with a free flow of money.
Obviously, another poster blamed me for talking in hypotheticals, but we're all talking in hypotheticals here. We can't be sure of absolutely nothing. But there is a high chance Guardiola would have failed miserably at Liverpool and I see very little chance of Klopp failing at City. Let's not forget that before spending an insane amount of money, City under Guardiola were fairly unimpressive and many people back then argued they played better under Pellegrini. Money, which he would not have had, if he was at Liverpool.
Best is Pep, and then Klopp then Tuchel. Although Klopp and Tuchel are on a similar level.
The thing with Klopp is there's an assumption that he works on a shoestring, and with better resources he would do better. But that doesn't take into account the fact that that's the environment he's comfortable in. In fact, Liverpool is arguably the highest profile club he can operate in the way he likes. So in the same way Pep is in his ideal environment, I'd say the same for Klopp.
In their ideal environments, I'd back Pep over the both of them, and Tuchel wouldn't be that far off from Klopp. But as it stands currently, it's Pep then Klopp then Tuchel.
The thing with Klopp is there's an assumption that he works on a shoestring, and with better resources he would do better. But that doesn't take into account the fact that that's the environment he's comfortable in. In fact, Liverpool is arguably the highest profile club he can operate in the way he likes. So in the same way Pep is in his ideal environment, I'd say the same for Klopp.
In their ideal environments, I'd back Pep over the both of them, and Tuchel wouldn't be that far off from Klopp. But as it stands currently, it's Pep then Klopp then Tuchel.
Klopp, hands down. Klopp has always managed teams that are underdogs and turn them to favorites over time. The fact that Klopp has awaken a sleeping giant in Liverpool to the very top without spending fortunes says it all.
He buys smart and if his signings don’t work out, he doesn’t throw them away the next season and ask for new signings. He gives them chances till they improve.
He buys smart and if his signings don’t work out, he doesn’t throw them away the next season and ask for new signings. He gives them chances till they improve.
What are you looking for?
Perfect football? Pep is the answer
Most exciting football? Klopp is your man
The thing in between, nobody really can explain, but it always works, wherever he goes? That's Tuchel
Perfect football? Pep is the answer
Most exciting football? Klopp is your man
The thing in between, nobody really can explain, but it always works, wherever he goes? That's Tuchel
Pep has never done a job like Klopp.
| Played | W | D | L | GF | GA | GD | Points | |
| Tuchel | 50 | 35 | 8 | 7 | 81 | 24 | +57 | 113 |
| Pep | 50 | 29 | 11 | 10 | 105 | 56 | +49 | 98 |
| Klopp | 50 | 23 | 16 | 11 | 86 | 57 | +29 | 86 |
First 50 games compared. Observations:
- Klopp takes a longer time to instill his style of play and doesn't clubhop as a consequence of the difficulty of implementing his Gegenpressing tactics. Doesn't need the best players but needs time.
- Pep buys the creme de la creme for his Tiki taka but still hasn't won the CL at Bayern or City, still it's a matter of time.
- Even as a rare BVB fan who liked Tuchel, he's overachieving by a mile. The dip will come, needs to win a PL or two to prove himself.
Yeah it's always assumed managers who work well on smaller budgets would instantly rule the world if they got a big warchest (although Klopp's isn't as small as people try to make out, for example when we went to Anfield VVD alone cost more than our entire back 3, wingbacks and the two defenders that came off the bench combined).
If there's going to be question marks on whether Pep could do it on a relative shoestring then the same has to be put on whether Klopp would handle it at a "win or you're out" job. As you've somewhat alluded too Klopp himself ìs quite possibly deliberately avoiding them.
People rate Klopp higher because there is traditionally a greater tolerance of limited resources and sporadic trophies. It's only with United's dominance of the Premier League, and latterly the oil clubs, that there is an expectation of constant success. That's not the experience of most fans and most clubs. Constant contention within normal resources is the most that most fans expect from their clubs.
If he make rlc into what we all once hope one day he will become like yaya type player then I will simply say tuchel will have no parallels.
Klopp in general. Tuchel atm.
Never thought I could actually like a Liverpool manager
Regarding the overachieving (numbers from the PL this season) :
| № | Team | M | W | D | L | G | GA | PTS | xG | NPxG | xGA | xPTS |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Manchester City | 17 | 13 | 2 | 2 | 40 | 9 | 41 | 40.86+0.86 | 40.10 | 9.88+0.88 | 40.88-0.12 |
| 2 | Liverpool | 16 | 11 | 4 | 1 | 45 | 12 | 37 | 42.49-2.51 | 40.96 | 14.28+2.28 | 37.36+0.36 |
| 3 | Chelsea | 16 | 11 | 3 | 2 | 38 | 11 | 36 | 31.67-6.33 | 27.86 | 16.66+5.66 | 30.84-5.16 |
6 goals ahead of created chances
6 goals less conceded than created chances against
5 points won more than expected from chances created and chances conceded.
The table doesn't reflect the true balance between the 3 teams and how they play.
My guess is that Chelsea will finish third and that he will be gone at the end of the season. At least, he will have gotten a CL trophy for them.
Are you saying that xG, xGA, and xPTs have a variance of zero?
Why would he leave if he finishes 3rd?
My memory might be failing me but I can't remember a Chelsea manager getting sacked after finishing higher in the league than the previous season.
Guardiola can put teams into hypnotic state by his techniques and style of play which was something very rare to see.
Klopp can make you feel the excitement and turn players into beasts.
Both are great and unfortunately they are managing our direct rivals and I wonder when both will be leaving ? heard Pep will leave soon though!
Klopp can make you feel the excitement and turn players into beasts.
Both are great and unfortunately they are managing our direct rivals and I wonder when both will be leaving ? heard Pep will leave soon though!
Of course it is Guardiola. Have won everywhere he was manager. Sure, some would say that he got best teams and unlimited money but still. Am I fan of football he is playing? Not really. But it works and have always worked under him. His knowledge and pedagogy are just top class. Pure football teacher.
I don’t take anything from Klopp and Tuchel and between them, Klopp is better. He seems to be more hard working class-sort of a man and is passionate about his job. Those people, if they are at your club, are adored. I would also say something that would be unpopular and that is despite of all great work he has done for Liverpool the amount of titels doesn’t reflect the reputation he got.
I don’t take anything from Klopp and Tuchel and between them, Klopp is better. He seems to be more hard working class-sort of a man and is passionate about his job. Those people, if they are at your club, are adored. I would also say something that would be unpopular and that is despite of all great work he has done for Liverpool the amount of titels doesn’t reflect the reputation he got.
Pep obviously has the greatest trophy cabinet, but he had Dortmund going toe to toe with Bayern and made a CL final. Made Liverpool into one of the best in the world. Pep is great for sure, but give Klopp an unlimited budget as well and I think he'd dominate everyone.
That's a lazy assumption, doing well on a tight budget (Klopp's budget isn't THAT tight but you know what I mean) doesn't mean you'll rule the world with bigger funds. Some people thought Sarri building a 90 point plus team at Napoli meant he was destined for big things once he got a bigger budget but it didn't work out that way.
Klopp may or may not be suited to the higher pressure such a budget will bring, for all we know that could be why he's been dodging those type of jobs all this time. If question marks are going to be put on Pep's head over how he will cope with smaller budgets then the same questions have to be asked on whether Klopp will handle the win at all costs pressure.
Pep > Klopp >> Tuchel
Can't compare first 50 games. Klopp inherited a team which doesn't believe in themselves being ever possible to winning the premier league or champ league.
Mate just stop seriously stop you are ruining the thread with common sense not cool .
As much as this sounds ridiculous in one sense, football is not just about winning trophies. What I mean is the vast majority of football fans will watch their team only ever lifting a trophy once or twice if ever in their lifetime. In that regard, surely the simple pleasure of watching good football and quality attacking - consistently - is a huge factor, for let’s say the neutral who might follow a mid table team or from lower divisions . They don’t care if city or Liverpool or whoever win, they just want to see good football.
on that measure, I would say Pep wins this contest hands down. His teams have never failed to play intricate and expansive football with movement, team focus and individuality all roled into one. Klopp has had muddy phases trying to get wheels in motion and I don’t find Tuchels football that exciting or compelling. Over their careers, Pep is as close as you get to guaranteed top quality football on a consistent basis.
on that measure, I would say Pep wins this contest hands down. His teams have never failed to play intricate and expansive football with movement, team focus and individuality all roled into one. Klopp has had muddy phases trying to get wheels in motion and I don’t find Tuchels football that exciting or compelling. Over their careers, Pep is as close as you get to guaranteed top quality football on a consistent basis.
Have to say that’s a bad analogy, what did Sarri win at Napoli? Entire reason people rate the achievements of Klopp at Dortmund is he broke the Bayern monopoly & the CL achievements were brilliant on top of that. Sarri was coveted for playing brilliant football at Napoli not for being a winner and that’s played out on his post Napoli career, one EL with a strong Chelsea and one Serie A with a good Juve.