Who wins euro 2024?

The frustrating thing is that we have everything needed to win the thing but an utter plank in charge who can't put it all together.
 
KirkDuyt said:
The Dutch-German rivalry was a very hostile one until the early 90's. Don't think anyone disputes that.

We paint our historic 70s side as very good and playing a revolutionairy style of football, which they clearly did. They were also cnuts to some degree, again, hardly think anyone disputes that. Though South Americans (or Germans) can't really play the victim in that conversation. They made some atrocious fouls in '74 when we played them off the field. And in 78 it wasn't as much the on field stuff, but the intimidation by a murderous regime in the run-up to the final. Likewise the German definitely gave as good as they got. I also feel Argentina somehow care more about that last world cup match in 2022 than we do. We had a terrible team and were content to even get out of our group.

Bottom line the overwhelming consensus in The Netherlands is that we never win anything because we're really bad at penalties (especially '98 or 2000 could've been ours) and because we were to overconfident in '74 and Cruijff and Van Hanegem didn't feel like playing in '78. And our only real rival is Germany, no one really cares about Brazil and Argentina here. Maybe young people because Argentina beat us twice on penalties the last 10 years?
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You're right to be proud of the football your teams have played. The cuntishness and sly pragmatism those other teams are capable of is well documented, but it's something I never read or heard much about the old Netherlands teams. They're often romanticised as "purer" technical footballing team, so I was quite surprised when finally able to watch their games and find they were arguably even more guilty of that side of the game. No team were angels back then, tbf.
 
Demyanenko_square_jaw said:
You're right to be proud of the football your teams have played. The cuntishness and sly pragmatism those other teams are capable of is well documented, but it's something I never read or heard much about the old Netherlands teams. They're often romanticised as "purer" technical footballing team, so I was quite surprised when finally able to watch their games and find they were arguably even more guilty of that side of the game. No team were angels back then, tbf.
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Rijkaard spitting Völler in the neck is a classic. Especially that team had some absolute cnuts. Jan Wouters was one of the biggest elbow merchant in world football.
 
Grinner said:
The frustrating thing is that we have everything needed to win the thing but an utter plank in charge who can't put it all together.
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Then we don't have everything cause we're missing a manager. Also missing a lb and 2nd CM being honest.
 
LankyHoggie said:
What type of midfielder would you have instead of Rice to partner Kobbie?
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Kobbie is def my partner for Rice with 2. If I was playing 532 it'd be either Rice, Kobbie, Jude or Rice, Foden, Jude depending on how the game was going. But given England have a problem with ball progression. Something more direct (I sound like big Sam) with Toney holding up the ball for Kane, Foden, Bellingham I think is quite viable. I also think wing backs go a long way to fixing Walkers lack of support on the right and Walker at CB would cover Trents defensive weakness.

Mainoo is currently the best 2nd midfielder we have but he's hugely inexperienced and while like Guehi while he's been good so far, its good relative to his standing.
We just don't have the quality that say Germany can put in midfield. Mainoo does a lot of things well but I don't think he's elite at passing forward. He's very controlled, gets forward well and solid and crazy composed for his age. Very good all round with tons of potential. I kinda feel like we need someone who can play in there and break lines with their passing, the way say a Gundogan or Kimmich can, or a Pedri etc.. Like when Pep plays 4231 its either Bernardo or Kovacic with Rodri. I think that's exactly why Southgate tried TAA in there (and failed miserably).
That said its hard to break lines with Kane and Foden in a front 3 as they don't make those runs.

I think that's why we have to play to our strengths and that's probably more direct than we'd like to admit unless Southgate gets brave enough for a 433 with both Foden and Bellingham as 8's ala KDB and David Silva but I can't see that.
 
Demyanenko_square_jaw said:
You're right to be proud of the football your teams have played. The cuntishness and sly pragmatism those other teams are capable of is well documented, but it's something I never read or heard much about the old Netherlands teams. They're often romanticised as "purer" technical footballing team, so I was quite surprised when finally able to watch their games and find they were arguably even more guilty of that side of the game. No team were angels back then, tbf.
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Dutch teams were always rough, fantastically technically, yet rough like most teams in the 70's and the 80's.
In part also because they were one of the first teams that took more seriosuly defensive/pressing and double taks (off/def) by polivalent players.
In those periods when you arrived late you had some space to actually blew the rival up in the air with not much consequence from the refs.
The 78' Final as beautiful as it was in terms of the football played, there was lots of violence involved in the pitch too.

I actually always thought against the opinion of many that to romanticize such stuff it's bad, as "funny" as sometimes can be an over the top foul or brawl. It's a very good thing that the game still is full of fouls, but more tactical ones and we deal with less of those horrible tackles, elbows and such till the end of the 80's.
 
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KirkDuyt said:
The Dutch-German rivalry was a very hostile one until the early 90's. Don't think anyone disputes that.

We paint our historic 70s side as very good and playing a revolutionairy style of football, which they clearly did. They were also cnuts to some degree, again, hardly think anyone disputes that. Though South Americans (or Germans) can't really play the victim in that conversation. They made some atrocious fouls in '74 when we played them off the field. And in 78 it wasn't as much the on field stuff, but the intimidation by a murderous regime in the run-up to the final. Likewise the German definitely gave as good as they got. I also feel Argentina somehow care more about that last world cup match in 2022 than we do. We had a terrible team and were content to even get out of our group.

Bottom line the overwhelming consensus in The Netherlands is that we never win anything because we're really bad at penalties (especially '98 or 2000 could've been ours) and because we were to overconfident in '74 and Cruijff and Van Hanegem didn't feel like playing in '78. And our only real rival is Germany, no one really cares about Brazil and Argentina here. Maybe young people because Argentina beat us twice on penalties the last 10 years?
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How the Dutch feel about Belgium? a real rival? or them most of the times underperforming takes the "spice" out of it? Or Belgium it's more of a rival for the French?

Those Germany vs Holland games were most of the times fantastic on every sense, so many extraordinary players and lots of shithousery and passion involved.
 
padr81 said:
I think that's why we have to play to our strengths and that's probably more direct than we'd like to admit unless Southgate gets brave enough for a 433 with both Foden and Bellingham as 8's ala KDB and David Silva but I can't see that.
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Why would you do that. KDB and Silva had Fernandinho and one of Zinchenko/Delph behind them getting them the ball + Guardiola's pressing and fitness. They are also very different players than either Bellingham or Foden. The latter 2 are forwards for all intents and purposes. The sooner england accepts that the better. They are just nowhere near - really I can't emphasize this enough - as good as the former outside the final third
 
Fobal said:
Dutch teams were always rough, fantastically technically, yet rough like most teams in the 70's and the 80's.
In part also because they were one of the first teams that took more seriosuly defensive/pressing and double taks (off/def) by polivalent players.
In those periods when you arrived late you had some space to actually blew the rival up in the air with not much consequence from the refs.
The 78' Final as beautiful as it was in terms of the football played, there was lots of violence involved in the pitch too.

I actually always thought against the opnion of many to romanticize such stuff it's bad, as "funny" as sometimes can be an over the top foul or brawl. It's a very good thing that the game still is full of fouls, but more tactical ones and we deal with less of those horrible tackles, elbows and such till the end of the 80's.
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Bolded is perhaps the only thing I don't miss from football of yesteryear. Genuine thugs were still around even as late as the early noughties.
 
Kopral Jono said:
Bolded is perhaps the only thing I don't miss from football of yesteryear. Genuine thugs were still around even as late as the early noughties.
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In fact yes there were more thugs, but even awesome and very technical and mostly fair players used more their studs. For instance because of arriving late, or cutting a dangerous counter or break, while knowing that they could get away with it or as much receive just a yellow.
Also the tactical foul that today is very very present because there is a lot of tight marking in numbers, in those days you could do a Gentile or Reyna and you don't receive a yellow till your 5 or 6 foul. At least in those days, teams didn't pass the line of the ball as fast when going back, or marked as tight as nowadays, every period compensates one thing with another. Anyway the constant fouling without cards and the elbows or studs every time in some periods was beyond stupid.
 
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giorno said:
Why would you do that. KDB and Silva had Fernandinho and one of Zinchenko/Delph behind them getting them the ball + Guardiola's pressing and fitness. They are also very different players than either Bellingham or Foden. The latter 2 are forwards for all intents and purposes. The sooner england accepts that the better. They are just nowhere near - really I can't emphasize this enough - as good as the former outside the final third
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Bellingham has only become a 10 recently and while the jury is out on Foden. Literally the entire world said Pep was mental and both kdb and Silva were forwards or 10s.

Very similar actually a wide player who isn't a natural wide player and a no.10. the rodri vs rice point is valid though.

They don't have to be as good as the former, they just have to be good enough to beat the average international teams.
No one is suggesting that vs France or Spain but it should absolutely be possible against Slovenia's of the world.
 
padr81 said:
Bellingham has only become a 10 recently and while the jury is out on Foden. Literally the entire world said Pep was mental and both kdb and Silva were forwards or 10s.
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Bellingham is awesome at carrying the ball in transition, dribbling in tight spaces to create space for a shot/pass, ghosting into the box, scoring and assisting, with exceptional decision making on and off the ball in the final third. He's otherwise a decent passer, with decent vision, and decent decision making, on and off the ball. Awesome motor and mobility

Foden is awesome at...well, pretty much the same thing, except his motor and mobility aren't quite as awesome

KDB and David Silva were awesome passers with awesome vision and awesome decision making in the middle third

Both were always team players, their game was built on directing their teams play, simplify the game for their teammates. Played with a teammate first mentality. Bellingham and Foden are individualists. Their game is about them, not their teammates. Could they *eventually* learn to be team first players? Maybe. But they are not that *right now* and they aren't going to change in one game

They don't have to be as good as the former, they just have to be good enough to beat the average international teams.
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I agree. The counterpoint is that the best use of them to beat average international sides is to just play them as forwards and ask them to just focus on making the decisive plays in the final third. Use them for what they are, not what they may be capable of against this opponent. You don't sacrifice your game winners for the sake of your lesser players, you sacrifice your lesser players for the sake of your game winners.

if you want to do the former you need the time to build and coach a settled team, which at international level isn't even always possible
 
Fobal said:
How the Dutch feel about Belgium? a real rival? or them most of the times underperforming takes the "spice" out of it? Or Belgium it's more of a rival for the French?

Those Germany vs Holland games were most of the times fantastic on every sense, so many extraordinary players and lots of shithousery and passion involved.
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Not really a rival, at least to me. None of our good generations really overlap. Dunno how the Belgians feel about it though.
 
KirkDuyt said:
Not really a rival, at least to me. None of our good generations really overlap. Dunno how the Belgians feel about it though.
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Ya I’m the same ( from a Belgian perspective). I wouldn’t mind seeing Holland win this win now we’re out. France however….
 
KirkDuyt said:
Not really a rival, at least to me. None of our good generations really overlap. Dunno how the Belgians feel about it though.
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Who are Holland's rivals anyway?
 
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giorno said:
Bellingham is awesome at carrying the ball in transition, dribbling in tight spaces to create space for a shot/pass, ghosting into the box, scoring and assisting, with exceptional decision making on and off the ball in the final third. He's otherwise a decent passer, with decent vision, and decent decision making, on and off the ball. Awesome motor and mobility

Foden is awesome at...well, pretty much the same thing, except his motor and mobility aren't quite as awesome

KDB and David Silva were awesome passers with awesome vision and awesome decision making in the middle third

Both were always team players, their game was built on directing their teams play, simplify the game for their teammates. Played with a teammate first mentality. Bellingham and Foden are individualists. Their game is about them, not their teammates. Could they *eventually* learn to be team first players? Maybe. But they are not that *right now* and they aren't going to change in one game


I agree. The counterpoint is that the best use of them to beat average international sides is to just play them as forwards and ask them to just focus on making the decisive plays in the final third. Use them for what they are, not what they may be capable of against this opponent. You don't sacrifice your game winners for the sake of your lesser players, you sacrifice your lesser players for the sake of your game winners.

if you want to do the former you need the time to build and coach a settled team, which at international level isn't even always possible
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Thats fair but I think the issue is Foden in particular has been terrible for England as a wide forward. It just hasn't happened for him. Will that change without GS maybe but he looks to really struggle.
 
Such a shame Spain and Germany met at this early stage. Winner should go all the way unless France or England get a lot better (or stay very lucky).
 
padr81 said:
Thats fair but I think the issue is Foden in particular has been terrible for England as a wide forward. It just hasn't happened for him. Will that change without GS maybe but he looks to really struggle.
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Giving him clear instructions would help. This is where being coaching by Guardiola his whole career and not being the player Guardiola bends over backwards for might have hurt his development. He never really had to improve his football IQ, his decision making when he has to figure things out for himself doesn't look great

England also isn't really setup to play the kind of quick combinative football he needs to be at his best
 
I backed France to win but at this stage, it's a crime if Spain doesn't win it (or maybe the Dutch if they keep improving). Been a really crap football tournament in proportion to the amount of attacking talent out there. Germany and Austria were probably the most entertaining teams and were a bit unlucky.
 
Afraid it's gonna be England with their piss easy way to the final. They'll probably peak at the right time.
 
At this point, whoever wins will be the best of a bad bunch. I’ve not been impressed by any of them at all.
 
TheReligion said:
I’m not sure the team that wins will care all that much if I’m honest.
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It is a bit sad though because football should be about joy. If France, England, or Portugal win this tournament they wont care but the losing teams/fans will have every reason to be frustrated about the quality shown in proportion to the talent they have.
 
Irwin99 said:
It is a bit sad though because football should be about joy. If France, England, or Portugal win this tournament they wont care but the losing teams/fans will have every reason to be frustrated about the quality shown in proportion to the talent they have.
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I blame the terrible German pitches personally. An absolute disgrace.
 
You would think now the winner of France vs Spain will win the tournament. I'd like to see the best attacking team win it, and Spain's wingers and midfield have been great to watch. France have been dreadful and yet somehow keep doing enough.
 
Irwin99 said:
You would think now the winner of France vs Spain will win the tournament. I'd like to see the best attacking team win it, and Spain's wingers and midfield have been great to watch. France have been dreadful and yet somehow keep doing enough.
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Spain will miss half of its team in the semi, thanks to De la Fuente royally screwing up his subs and taking its team to ET. If France get past them, and I think they will, they'll definitely win it.
 
Well, hopefully not French or England, speaking as a neutral, i just want a somewhat enjoyable game, and i for sure knows that a France - England final will be absolutely dross.
 
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