Who replaces Ten Hag?

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Chumpsbechumps said:
Chalk and cheese for me

You don’t see any Celtic managers managing super massive clubs in Europe. Brendan Rodger’s is probably the closest.

Doesn't mean Ange won’t break that record but it’s a theory that hasn’t been tested yet. I’d argue that managing Celtic, is a step or two below managing Ajax, particularly when it comes to the CL experience ETH got.
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I'm not saying being Celtic manager by itself qualifies Ange for the United job.
But what is comparable between the 2 jobs is the pressure and scrutiny a manager comes under.
 
Reiver said:
I'm not saying being Celtic manager by itself qualifies Ange for the United job.
But what is comparable between the 2 jobs is the pressure and scrutiny a manager comes under.
Click to expand...

There's more pressure domestically at Celtic and Rangers than there is at Ajax.

Ajax are the biggest club in The Netherlands, but there is a "Big Three" that make up the majority of Dutch league winners. Ajax, PSV and Feyenoord.

While Ajax want to win it every season, you do have more potential title winners. Outside of the those 3 clubs, AZ Alkmaar have an outside chance in recent times.

It's literally just Celtic and Rangers battling it out. The pressure is enormous on the mangers of both clubs. Especially at Celtic who gained an advantage over Rangers while they were recovering from a few years in the lower divisions. Rodgers will be feeling the heat every game with the lead so tight at the top.

Peter Bosz is the only Ajax manager to have taken them to a European final this century. ten Hag inherited a good squad to work with from him.
 
Reiver said:
I'm not saying being Celtic manager by itself qualifies Ange for the United job.
But what is comparable between the 2 jobs is the pressure and scrutiny a manager comes under.
Click to expand...
Fallon d'Floor said:
There's more pressure domestically at Celtic and Rangers than there is at Ajax.

Ajax are the biggest club in The Netherlands, but there is a "Big Three" that make up the majority of Dutch league winners. Ajax, PSV and Feyenoord.

While Ajax want to win it every season, you do have more potential title winners. Outside of the those 3 clubs, AZ Alkmaar have an outside chance in recent times.

It's literally just Celtic and Rangers battling it out. The pressure is enormous on the mangers of both clubs. Especially at Celtic who gained an advantage over Rangers while they were recovering from a few years in the lower divisions. Rodgers will be feeling the heat every game with the lead so tight at the top.

Peter Bosz is the only Ajax manager to have taken them to a European final this century. ten Hag inherited a good squad to work with from him.
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I think pressure and scrutiny is a difficult thing to quantify club to club in these sort of leagues. I’m curious as to how managing Ajax would be lessor pressure/scrutiny then Celtic. What are the variables you use when deducing this? Not trying to be smart BTW, I wouldn’t know enough about Scottish or Dutch league to debate your sentiments.

From a Player and usually club quality point of view Celtic is an inferior club. Prob have to go back to early 00s for there to be a strong European Celtic team. Even at the moment Ajax are ranked 23rd in uefa coefficients, Celtic are 53rd which is a massive difference, especially if you look at some of the clubs in between these values.

If we look at the range of quality managers chewed up at United, giving a manager who hasn’t had good experience in EPL and/or experience at a top European club , it’s not the same wisest. ETH has more pedigree in this regards even if people think he has failed.

That said , I believe Once our club has a proper infrastructure we will be able to take risks on these sort of managers. I feel the almost cultish hyper focus on managers we have had at United needs to stop. We should be easily able to replace managers without these squad rebuilds everytime. Our squads should be built to match the clubs strategy and managers chosen should fit into that strategy.

It was half arsed tried under ETH but we don’t have the proper transfer infrastructure. I don’t blame ETH for transfers , I blame the club. From summer this shouldn’t be a problem whether ETH is in charge or not. A manager should be part of recruitment, not the only voice on it.
 
Chumpsbechumps said:
I think pressure and scrutiny is a difficult thing to quantify club to club in these sort of leagues. I’m curious as to how managing Ajax would be lessor pressure/scrutiny then Celtic. What are the variables you use when deducing this? Not trying to be smart BTW, I wouldn’t know enough about Scottish or Dutch league to debate your sentiments.

From a Player and usually club quality point of view Celtic is an inferior club. Prob have to go back to early 00s for there to be a strong European Celtic team. Even at the moment Ajax are ranked 23rd in uefa coefficients, Celtic are 53rd which is a massive difference, especially if you look at some of the clubs in between these values.

If we look at the range of quality managers chewed up at United, giving a manager who hasn’t had good experience in EPL and/or experience at a top European club , it’s not the same wisest. ETH has more pedigree in this regards even if people think he has failed.

That said , I believe Once our club has a proper infrastructure we will be able to take risks on these sort of managers. I feel the almost cultish hyper focus on managers we have had at United needs to stop. We should be easily able to replace managers without these squad rebuilds everytime. Our squads should be built to match the clubs strategy and managers chosen should fit into that strategy.

It was half arsed tried under ETH but we don’t have the proper transfer infrastructure. I don’t blame ETH for transfers , I blame the club. From summer this shouldn’t be a problem whether ETH is in charge or not. A manager should be part of recruitment, not the only voice on it.
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I'd be willing to say that by whatever metric you measure being under pressure and scrutiny, the Celtic job would be right up there. Just my opinion of course. I'd also suggest there's more at Celtic than at Spurs too. Again, just my opinion.
I only initially commented because you seemed to suggest Ange hadn't been tested in this way. I think he has by being Celtic manager.
What I agree with is that he has not shown he can do it with a big team in a big league.
 
Reiver said:
I'm not saying being Celtic manager by itself qualifies Ange for the United job.
But what is comparable between the 2 jobs is the pressure and scrutiny a manager comes under.
Click to expand...

Takes more than that. Takes years of high-acheivement coaching at a championship contending European club (preferably in the Prem) to see first-hand the speed, strength, tactics, endurance, and game management required to succeed. Being a good coach in a lesser league means nothing.
 
Chumpsbechumps said:
I think pressure and scrutiny is a difficult thing to quantify club to club in these sort of leagues. I’m curious as to how managing Ajax would be lessor pressure/scrutiny then Celtic. What are the variables you use when deducing this? Not trying to be smart BTW, I wouldn’t know enough about Scottish or Dutch league to debate your sentiments.

From a Player and usually club quality point of view Celtic is an inferior club. Prob have to go back to early 00s for there to be a strong European Celtic team. Even at the moment Ajax are ranked 23rd in uefa coefficients, Celtic are 53rd which is a massive difference, especially if you look at some of the clubs in between these values.

If we look at the range of quality managers chewed up at United, giving a manager who hasn’t had good experience in EPL and/or experience at a top European club , it’s not the same wisest. ETH has more pedigree in this regards even if people think he has failed.
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Think about it like this...

Imagine The PL with only United and Liverpool battling it out for the title every season. But with an even bigger hatred. You share the same city and have a religious element to consider also. There's genuine hatred dating back decades. You're competing with your biggest rival and losing the title to them every season you don't win it. That's a huge level of pressure on the manager of both these clubs. As United fans, we've only had to see Liverpool lift a title once in The PL era.

Feyenoord would be the Atletico Madrid of Dutch football. While Barcelona and Real will win it more times than not, Atletico can win a title. Feyenoord are the same. There's more competition at the top of these leagues than there is in Scotland. While a 2nd place finish at Ajax obviously isn't good, it won't be faced with same scrutiny that finishing 2nd behind Rangers would. Ajax have gone a few seasons without winning a title. ten Hag was close to losing out on a title to AZ Alkmaar in 2020.

I'd say there is more of expected in Europe at Ajax than there is at Celtic. Because of Ajax's history. The 70's and 90's. Domestically, big pressure at Celtic.

ten Hag has actually consistently shit the bed in European knockout games.

18/19 - Lose in the last minute vs Spurs (Champions League)
19/20 - Knocked out by Getafe in the Round of 32 (Europa League)
20/21 - Knocked out by Roma in the QF (Europa League)
21/22 - Knocked out by Benfica in the Round of 16 (Champions League)
22/23 - Knocked out by Sevilla in the QF (Europa League)
 
jamesjimmybyrondean said:
Ironically if ETH was still at Ajax he’d be a top favorite for fans
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But then he got his chance and hasn't really lived up to expectations. I also wanted ten Hag as United manager.

If Amorim/De Zerbri/Tuchel came in and also didn't deliver, I'd also want them gone. There are no guarantees. You keep going until one day it clicks.

United fans have really attached themselves to managers since LvG left. Mourinho, Solskajer and ten Hag have all had fans who back them no matter what.
 
Matthew1972 said:
Takes more than that. Takes years of high-acheivement coaching at a championship contending European club (preferably in the Prem) to see first-hand the speed, strength, tactics, endurance, and game management required to succeed. Being a good coach in a lesser league means nothing.
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I'm not disagreeing.
My original point is that if anyone thinks Ange hasn't dealt with high pressure and scrutiny before, he definitely has.
 
Mr Smith said:
I'm sorry but I feel putting De Zerbi and Alonso in tier 1 over proven winners like Tuchel, Enrique, Flick, Conte, Emery, and Simeone has massive flavour of the month bias and won't age well. I get they have baggage and personally I wouldn't choose any of them (Enrique if I absolutely had to), but just that demonstrates how poor the options are currently. Which is why I'm ultimately still Ten Hag in as I don't believe any of those managers would do a significantly better job than Ten Hag with the state this club has been in. I'd rather hold fast and see if he can turn it around with a new structure and our best players back, and wait for an actual good candidate to become available in the meantime.
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Emery, Conte and Simeone would be horrible choices for us. Great managers. Do not suit Man United and building a dominant team. They suit underdogs team to play a more negative system.

Tuchel, Luis Enrique and Flick play a progressive style but also have clear examples of falling out with the structures in place (or Flick has a failure at national level). De Zerbi has the upside of the unknown, same with Alonso.
 
Fallon d'Floor said:
Think about it like this...

Imagine The PL with only United and Liverpool battling it out for the title every season. But with an even bigger hatred. You share the same city and have a religious element to consider also. There's genuine hatred dating back decades. You're competing with your biggest rival and losing the title to them every season you don't win it. That's a huge level of pressure on the manager of both these clubs. As United fans, we've only had to see Liverpool lift a title once in The PL era.

Feyenoord would be the Atletico Madrid of Dutch football. While Barcelona and Real will win it more times than not, Atletico can win a title. Feyenoord are the same. There's more competition at the top of these leagues than there is in Scotland. While a 2nd place finish at Ajax obviously isn't good, it won't be faced with same scrutiny that finishing 2nd behind Rangers would. Ajax have gone a few seasons without winning a title. ten Hag was close to losing out on a title to AZ Alkmaar in 2020.

I'd say there is more of expected in Europe at Ajax than there is at Celtic. Because of Ajax's history. The 70's and 90's. Domestically, big pressure at Celtic.

ten Hag has actually consistently shit the bed in European knockout games.

18/19 - Lose in the last minute vs Spurs (Champions League)
19/20 - Knocked out by Getafe in the Round of 32 (Europa League)
20/21 - Knocked out by Roma in the QF (Europa League)
21/22 - Knocked out by Benfica in the Round of 16 (Champions League)
22/23 - Knocked out by Sevilla in the QF (Europa League)
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Cheers for the response, I get what you’re saying, but the pressure you speak of is more in relation to the fans and rivalry. Would you say then that managing a Turkish super club (where they are nuts) would equally have that kind of pressure environment?

When I think of pressure , I’m thinking more of expectations at higher levels with higher quality players. I think managing Ajax is managing a bigger club and better players than one would at Scotland.

At Ajax, you are expected to win the league and put in a decent shift in Europe. At Celtic if you win the league , which you probably should , then anything in Europe is really a bonus. Celtic have won 11 of the last 12 leagues. That doesn’t really suggest there is a rivalry with Rangers, just that rangers are the closest to them.
 
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Mr Smith said:
Do you really blame Potter for what happened at Chelsea? I've never seen a manager so badly undermined by irresponsible transfer dealings. I'm not convinced he has what it takes to succeed here but I personally don't hold the Chelsea job against him at all. I think he will end up Englabd manager one day.
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Seariously? Utimately he failed to get results and admitted in a presser he couldn't deal with the presser. He came after Tuchel and ended up as the manager with the least points to games ratio in their history. You're saying this is a future England manager? This is delusion of the highest order.
 
bosnian_red said:
Emery, Conte and Simeone would be horrible choices for us. Great managers. Do not suit Man United and building a dominant team. They suit underdogs team to play a more negative system.

Tuchel, Luis Enrique and Flick play a progressive style but also have clear examples of falling out with the structures in place (or Flick has a failure at national level). De Zerbi has the upside of the unknown, same with Alonso.
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Conte is not an underdog manager, are you mad? His best times as manager were with Juventus and Inter where he had the resources to build title winning sides, which he did. Chelsea was an exception, but did win the league in his first season. Tottenham was an underdog team and he failed there.

All those other managers are proven winners, some have asterixes like Tuchel, but how are de Zerbi and Alonso above them as unproven managers?
 
hobbers said:
So would AVB if he'd never left Porto, or Potter had he never left Brighton
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The nature of being a big fish in a small pond masks the deficiencies of these managers. Also the fact that the average United fan doesn't watch many games outside of the PL.
 
Fallon d'Floor said:
Think about it like this...

Imagine The PL with only United and Liverpool battling it out for the title every season. But with an even bigger hatred. You share the same city and have a religious element to consider also. There's genuine hatred dating back decades. You're competing with your biggest rival and losing the title to them every season you don't win it. That's a huge level of pressure on the manager of both these clubs. As United fans, we've only had to see Liverpool lift a title once in The PL era.

Feyenoord would be the Atletico Madrid of Dutch football. While Barcelona and Real will win it more times than not, Atletico can win a title. Feyenoord are the same. There's more competition at the top of these leagues than there is in Scotland. While a 2nd place finish at Ajax obviously isn't good, it won't be faced with same scrutiny that finishing 2nd behind Rangers would. Ajax have gone a few seasons without winning a title. ten Hag was close to losing out on a title to AZ Alkmaar in 2020.

I'd say there is more of expected in Europe at Ajax than there is at Celtic. Because of Ajax's history. The 70's and 90's. Domestically, big pressure at Celtic.

ten Hag has actually consistently shit the bed in European knockout games.

18/19 - Lose in the last minute vs Spurs (Champions League)
19/20 - Knocked out by Getafe in the Round of 32 (Europa League)
20/21 - Knocked out by Roma in the QF (Europa League)
21/22 - Knocked out by Benfica in the Round of 16 (Champions League)
22/23 - Knocked out by Sevilla in the QF (Europa League)
Click to expand...

But but but .. that Madrid game
 
De Zerbi especially when considering what the manager brings to the table by way of coaching and philosophy. It should be what the CEO and sporting director envision for the team, so there's not a current situation being witnessed where the manager (Eth) abandoning what made him successful elsewhere because of different conditions and circumstances.
 
The Mitcher said:
Conte is not an underdog manager, are you mad? His best times as manager were with Juventus and Inter where he had the resources to build title winning sides, which he did. Chelsea was an exception, but did win the league in his first season. Tottenham was an underdog team and he failed there.

All those other managers are proven winners, some have asterixes like Tuchel, but how are de Zerbi and Alonso above them as unproven managers?
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Proven winner is a nonsense statement, to be a top team in the Prem in 2024 you need to build a team that can dominate games. By underdog teams, I mean going a more negative or defensive style of play. What worked at Juve won't work in the Prem in this day. Or at least not for a sustained period. Having a 1 off great season is not building successfully, it's more a fluke than anything.

De Zerbi and Alonso are above because while yes, we know Tuchel and the others are very good managers... We also know that they had a limit that wasn't good enough at other big clubs with good structures. United needs a manager to implement a dominant system, which limits our selection of course. But we also have to build. So de Zerbi and Alonso go top for me, as they've both really impressed at smaller clubs and have shown they can implement a very good system. They don't have the downside yet of knowing they were at Bayern or Chelsea or PSG, and not ultimately succeeding and needing to be replaced within a few years.
 
The Mitcher said:
The nature of being a big fish in a small pond masks the deficiencies of these managers. Also the fact that the average United fan doesn't watch many games outside of the PL.
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It's the unknown of potential. They impress at their level, and then get their chance. Every manager needs to adapt at the biggest clubs, but it doesn't mean it's flawed to go for them. It just means you keep trying until it clicks.
 
Fallon d'Floor said:
There's more pressure domestically at Celtic and Rangers than there is at Ajax.

Ajax are the biggest club in The Netherlands, but there is a "Big Three" that make up the majority of Dutch league winners. Ajax, PSV and Feyenoord.

While Ajax want to win it every season, you do have more potential title winners. Outside of the those 3 clubs, AZ Alkmaar have an outside chance in recent times.

It's literally just Celtic and Rangers battling it out. The pressure is enormous on the mangers of both clubs. Especially at Celtic who gained an advantage over Rangers while they were recovering from a few years in the lower divisions. Rodgers will be feeling the heat every game with the lead so tight at the top.

Peter Bosz is the only Ajax manager to have taken them to a European final this century. ten Hag inherited a good squad to work with from him.
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Strachan and Lennon both won the league with Celtic. Most managers could win the league with Celtic. Ole and Moyes would as well I reckon.
 
bosnian_red said:
It's the unknown of potential. They impress at their level, and then get their chance. Every manager needs to adapt at the biggest clubs, but it doesn't mean it's flawed to go for them. It just means you keep trying until it clicks.
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You're not wrong, but there is a truth that these big teams in smaller leagues do not give us a clear picture of these managers.
 
Can we speak on Xavi?

Leaving Barcelona at the end of the season, has won La Liga, has progressed beyond the group phase in the CL, encourages youth, is still a young manager, speaks English and from memory he has some affection for Man Utd.

I haven’t read up on his decision to leave too much but from what I’ve gathered it’s due to the high levels of pressure managing at the club, the same complaint Pep had when he announced he was leaving in 2012. Maybe a more supportive environment here would be attractive to him.
 
Emery?

Would probably be abit complicated as Villa have done well to lock him up. But would make sense?

Managed several big clubs at a young age. Highest point per game of any coach at PSG. Messed up at Arsenal, but probably learned from it. Have PL-experience. Won alot. Only 52 or so. Very impressive at Villa.
 
Fallon d'Floor said:
Think about it like this...

Imagine The PL with only United and Liverpool battling it out for the title every season. But with an even bigger hatred. You share the same city and have a religious element to consider also. There's genuine hatred dating back decades. You're competing with your biggest rival and losing the title to them every season you don't win it. That's a huge level of pressure on the manager of both these clubs. As United fans, we've only had to see Liverpool lift a title once in The PL era.

Feyenoord would be the Atletico Madrid of Dutch football. While Barcelona and Real will win it more times than not, Atletico can win a title. Feyenoord are the same. There's more competition at the top of these leagues than there is in Scotland. While a 2nd place finish at Ajax obviously isn't good, it won't be faced with same scrutiny that finishing 2nd behind Rangers would. Ajax have gone a few seasons without winning a title. ten Hag was close to losing out on a title to AZ Alkmaar in 2020.

I'd say there is more of expected in Europe at Ajax than there is at Celtic. Because of Ajax's history. The 70's and 90's. Domestically, big pressure at Celtic.

ten Hag has actually consistently shit the bed in European knockout games.

18/19 - Lose in the last minute vs Spurs (Champions League)
19/20 - Knocked out by Getafe in the Round of 32 (Europa League)
20/21 - Knocked out by Roma in the QF (Europa League)
21/22 - Knocked out by Benfica in the Round of 16 (Champions League)
22/23 - Knocked out by Sevilla in the QF (Europa League)
Click to expand...

That is what is actually negative about Ten Haag's hiring. People, even club executives, did not thoroughly evaluate what they were getting. He has obvious flaws in his method, which supporters should not have been expected to recognize given their restricted access to the Eredivisie. He was popular, his club played a modern-looking brand of football, and he had a good UCL run in 2019. However, the inadequate defensive framework that we see now has always existed. I don't believe we investigated him thoroughly enough, which is why many are so surprised by his performance this season.

For me, it's the reason fans keep talking about our players' mental fragility, but under Ole, there would have been passionate debate about his ability to establish a good defensive system and handle counterattacks. In 2021, I recall us playing against Istanbul Basakshir and conceding a goal from our own corner due to a counterattack. Following that game, many questioned Ole's coaching abilities. However, I've seen similar incidents occur on a weekly basis under Ten Haag, with people doubting our players' intellect rather than looking to the manager, as they did with Ole.This is not to imply Ole was good; rather, Ten Haag is not the manager that many fans believe he is. We suffer in games because we lack the systems to maintain possession, slow down the game, and defend in a tight structure. Even under Ole, we were able to accomplish this very frequently, which is why we had some of the runs we did. Under Ole, we struggled to break down low blocks. Something that remains an issue under Ten Haag, with the added vulnerability of defensive frailty.

Having said that, I believe the club is best served today to actually screen possible individuals, given we have some football minds in place/coming shortly. The challenge we face as a club is how much trust we should place in managers from lower-quality leagues. I am aware that many pundits who appear to be pro-British often express ignorance while discussing this subject. Still, there's some truth to this when considering the kind of manager a major team ought to be looking for. A manager who has a side performing well in one of these top leagues—the Premier League, La Liga, Serie A, or even the Bundesliga—should be more likely to do good job at a top team, as the league has verifiable quality. For a top club, this carries less risk. However, we can then miss out on the opportunity to hire managers like Mourinho in 2005, Postecoglu, Pep in 2008 etc.

My belief is that, as a club of our calibre, managers may need to prove themselves and the football their teams play in a top league where strong competition is frequently seen before coming to us. It enables us to fully examine their football and determine whether it can function at the top level. We may miss out on young, up-and-coming managers with novel football philosophies, but we will be more certain of the style of football we can expect. Ideally, this would take the form of recruiting managers who have already shown themselves at the top level; nevertheless, as seen with Mourinho and LVG, we risk choosing managers with large egos, stale ideas, and who have not kept up with the times. Managers that lack the patience and ability to manage young players/players from another era. As a result, I believe that selecting managers with working systems who have recently performed well in a top league is the best option. This is not to argue that misses are impossible. Potter, Moyes, Pochettino, and Sarri, among others, came from the top divisions. However, for the most part, it provides the club with fewer questions and more information about what may reasonably be expected.
 
andersj said:
Emery?

Would probably be abit complicated as Villa have done well to lock him up. But would make sense?

Managed several big clubs at a young age. Highest point per game of any coach at PSG. Messed up at Arsenal, but probably learned from it. Have PL-experience. Won alot. Only 52 or so. Very impressive at Villa.
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I can’t really remember his time at Arsenal other that some of his interviews.
Was it really bad?
Arsenal didn’t really spend alot of money until they let Arteta free with a blank cheque book.
 
andersj said:
Emery?

Would probably be abit complicated as Villa have done well to lock him up. But would make sense?

Managed several big clubs at a young age. Highest point per game of any coach at PSG. Messed up at Arsenal, but probably learned from it. Have PL-experience. Won alot. Only 52 or so. Very impressive at Villa.
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His high line approach would get slated here. When teams score tons past us
 
EtH going now where in my view, reckon he's got another season in him before there's a change personally. Far bigger thing to fix within the club and the footballing hierarchy before EtH role is considered.
 
DJ_21 said:
His high line approach would get slated here. When teams score tons past us
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Maybe. I think quite a few would love it. He is good at setting up a defence. Remember the low block he set up at Villarreal against us in the EL?
 
andersj said:
Maybe. I think quite a few would love it. He is good at setting up a defence. Remember the low block he set up at Villarreal against us in the EL?
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Our fans don’t appreciate certain styles though and will always find something to moan about.
 
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