Almsot impossible to get the ball off at times.
And your dissapointed?
Who is the better 'Striker'?
- Thread starter Varun
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Almsot impossible to get the ball off at times.
And your dissapointed?
Well a few decades from now its Rooney that everyone will remember because it is he that will be United's all time ever top scorer and a United legend.RVP will probably be remembered more as an Arsenal player.
Maybe, but he will never be remembered as a better striker then Van Persie.
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I saw it, but seeing that you're repeating yourself in this and Rooney's thread about how great Wayne Rooney is and how wrong we all are about him, I couldn't help myself but to reply on your post.
Age, contract and personality aside i'd still have Rooney.
What he does is something that works well under my ideas of how football should be played.
Put him as a striker and he will score as much as Van Persie, and do more defensive work as well, and the defensive work of a striker is also a part of his total play.
It feels like people think that strikers only (!) Job is to go forward when we have the ball or hold the ball when we need to move up.
What he does is something that works well under my ideas of how football should be played.
Put him as a striker and he will score as much as Van Persie, and do more defensive work as well, and the defensive work of a striker is also a part of his total play.
It feels like people think that strikers only (!) Job is to go forward when we have the ball or hold the ball when we need to move up.
I agree with that part "Put him as a striker and he will score as much as Van Persie, and do more defensive work as well,"
If Moyes decided the solution to his conundrum in how to fit all his best players together was to let RVP go, move Rooney up top and let Mata play behind him, Id support that. If that change transformed Kagawa's fortunes and we saw Rooney, Mata, Kagawa and Januzaj become the new striking quartet Id be absolutely delighted.
I'd agree with this and I think this is what we need to do to move forward. At his best Rooney is our second best number 10, Januzaj would likely be a better option there and even Kagawa at times (though he's yet to really prove it at United). I genuinely think having Rooney and RvP holds us back at times, it limits our tactics severely and in order to keep those two players happy we have to shift around everyone else.
This. Rooney and Van Persie at their best are great strikers, but choosing one going forward will help the team play a more balanced game.
Striker only in name
midfielder in the game
he has a nice claim to fame
yet fans remember only to blame
midfielder in the game
he has a nice claim to fame
yet fans remember only to blame
I'm presuming you think Mata is the better number 10? That's debatable. The stuff about Januzaj and Kagawa is just crazy.
Yes Mata. I just don't like Rooney as a number 10 at all anymore. His touch is too inconsistent and he doesn't add much creativity at all. I'd genuinely rather see one of RvP or Rooney up top with any of the other 3 behind them. Rooney gets us goals still which is obviously good but I think it hinders the playing style of the team as a whole.
Because he plays in that position that makes him the fulcrum of our attacking play it is quite natural to blame him for our incoherence going forward. But I dont think it is fair to blame him entirely for the fact we havent quite clicked yet.
I thought this last season as well, so it's not a knee-jerk reaction to our poor play this season. I just don't think Rooney does enough in that role. As a striker I think Rooney is great, not as good as RvP, but still extremely good and will clearly get us goals. I just think that is the direction we should be headed in.
Van Persie by a country mile.
RVP is the better striker currently. However, going forward I would rather Rooney was given the main strikers role and RVP to be sold.
This maybe a controversial opinion, but I feel I can justify it. Rooney is in the prime of his career, but is getting asked to play a role that he is not great at. In the seasons we actually played him as a ST he managed to score as many goals as a fit RVP. He's got it in his locker, he just needs to be given that faith.
Rooney needs to be moved out of the number 10 role and into the number 9 role, if you want to put it that way. This would allow us as a team to be fluid in our attack. I made the point in another thread that when Rooney is in the hole behind the striker, everyone wants to give him the ball. He's just not good enough to play the role, we have Mata and Kagawa who are a lot more suited to the role. If Moyes has the balls to move on RVP in the summer to allow Rooney to play the ST role, I feel it will rejuvinate the team in allowing a more fluid attack. I can't see Moyes selling Rooney, but I feel he would sell RVP. If we could bring in a top quality AM in place of RVP, then I believe it could be the decision needed to push us back to the top.
This maybe a controversial opinion, but I feel I can justify it. Rooney is in the prime of his career, but is getting asked to play a role that he is not great at. In the seasons we actually played him as a ST he managed to score as many goals as a fit RVP. He's got it in his locker, he just needs to be given that faith.
Rooney needs to be moved out of the number 10 role and into the number 9 role, if you want to put it that way. This would allow us as a team to be fluid in our attack. I made the point in another thread that when Rooney is in the hole behind the striker, everyone wants to give him the ball. He's just not good enough to play the role, we have Mata and Kagawa who are a lot more suited to the role. If Moyes has the balls to move on RVP in the summer to allow Rooney to play the ST role, I feel it will rejuvinate the team in allowing a more fluid attack. I can't see Moyes selling Rooney, but I feel he would sell RVP. If we could bring in a top quality AM in place of RVP, then I believe it could be the decision needed to push us back to the top.
Rooney is the better footballer. Rvp the more effective striker
RVP is the better footballer and the more effective striker. Rooney is more versatile and whines more. RVP last season was mentioned as one of the best, if not the best, out and out striker in Europe, if one does not think Messi and Ronaldo as out and out strikers. Rooney simply isn't that good. RVP challenged Suarez last season, and I would suspect that he could have done that this season too were it not for injuries etc. Rooney just isn't that good. He lacks the first touch, the short passing, the dribbling and hold-up play (which he was much better at five years ago) that the very best players possess.
What about 09/10 when he scored 30+ goals and was regularly labelled as one of the top 5 players in the world, and won the PFA Player of the Year to boot?
I used the present tense - "He just isn't that good." In that very same post, I also argued that Rooney's hold up play was better five years ago. In 09/10, he was faster, more aggressive, looked stronger and was able to go past players. He lacks those attributes that made him a world class player; imo, he's behind the very best these days, still a quality player though.
Not really, you mentioned last season for RvP and all you can say about the present is that you "suspect" he'd be as good. Also, Rooney has been better than RvP this season, i.e. the present.
RvP is better, Rooney's had a very good season so far but even then it's comfortably inferior to Suarez or Aguero level. I would say Rooney's 2010 was almost as good as RvP last year, they're two very similar levels.
Genuinely amazed at the results here.
I wonder what they would be if the question was simply 'player' rather than 'striker'?
I wonder what they would be if the question was simply 'player' rather than 'striker'?
Surely it would be more even.
Well, I voted RvP in the poll because of the word striker, if the word was forward/player, I'd pick Rooney.
That settles it. Cina is a bellwether poster.
Yes, I'm the eunach Ram and you're all my sheep bitchez.
Hopefully still the same. In what is now 4 pages, I don't think I've read a decent argument as to why Rooney is the "more complete player," whatever on earth that means, other than talk of his so-called versatility and work rate.
Semantics. My argument was that Rooney was better in the past and has seen a decline in his abilities and overall play. RVP has not. Last season RVP was better and played at a higher and more consistent quality than Rooney has this season. If not for his injuries, I see no reason why RVP should not have continued his form. Rooney's present form is also nothing to brag about. Furthermore, the decline in Rooney's physical attributes and his hold up play are noticeable, even when he's supposedly playing his best season ever, according to some. His best season, then, is some way short of RVP's last season.
It's because people would fail to find arguments other than versatility and work rate. In which case, Valencia is clearly the superior winger to Nani, or mostly any other winger for that matter. Also, RVP makes a very good number ten as he showed for Arsenal; he's just not played there for United.
Who's arguing it's his best season ever? Is anyone with half a semblence of a brain doing that? Nobody will deny he's been below par since his (shock shock) return from injury (you've used that as an excuse for RvP, surely it's acceptable to use as an excuse for Rooney's current form too?) but until then he was definitely our best player this season and certainly in far better form than anything we've seen from RvP this season, and this season is the present, so how you can somehow say that RvP hasn't declined as a player where as Rooney has despite the fact that Rooney has been better this season and RvP has been worse is a bit .. crazy.
Except that Valencia is the very opposite of versatile.
In what bizarre shape or form is Valencia a versatile player given he can literally only play a single position for us, has only one foot and is possibly the most predictable professional footballer on the face of the planet?
It's not crazy at all. RVP's abilities on the ball has not diminished. He has failed to set the world alight. But just like always, his technique, ball control, dribbling, short passing, link up play and hold up play are all world class. Rooney has declined in several attributes that used to be pivotal to him being labelled world class; namely his power and pace. RVP never relied on such things, and whereas Rooney has declined in those and also in his hold up play and imo also his link up play, I think it's safe to say that he has declined whereas I can say that RVP hasn't. It's a question of class vs form. Rooney's form this season has been better, no doubt. Rooney takes too many matches to find match fitness/form though - he has always done that.
In that he can play as a fullback too. Rooney can play as a central midfielder - he doesn't do it very well, nor does Valencia play RB very well... Giggs also relies on his left foot 99% of the time, but he's quite versatile in that he can play AM, CM and LW and RW... Versatility is hardly a criteria for judging world class players - handy players, no doubt, but not world class.
Nani can play on the left more effective than Valencia can play as a full back, and whenever he has been used at full back he's usually cost us a goal. How's he versatile? Not just in the number of positions he can play well (one) but in his overall game, what's versatile about it? You claim he's one of the most versatile players around, period, yet your reason for that is that he can play shit at right back too. I suppose he's quite versatile in terms of which part of the full-backs anatomy he smacks the ball at.
And yet he has gotten far better at things such as passing, chance creation, finishing, crossing etc, things that you expect a #10/deep forward to have. I'm not sure I'd call that declining really, I'd call it evolving.
Where did I ever claim that Valencia was one of the most versatile players around? I said that he would be more versatile than most wingers in that he can also play as a fullback. At his best, many on the Caf argued that Valencia could be a viable option on the right back position. He also plays more centrally at times for Ecuador. Nani can play as an attacking player only. I think Nani is a much better player, and I don't think that versatility is a good argument for labelling the best players at all.
And yet RVP is better at passing, finishing etc. I also disagree that Rooney's passing has improved much. His long range passing is good, but not Scholes-esque (who is), but his short passing is too inconsistent as is his hold up play and first touch, which are attributes that are world class in RVP's game. Surely, you too must agree that short passing is more important for a forward player than long range passing? And I doubt you would label Rooney's short passing better than RVP's or Mata's for instance?
Since you are more concerned with my arguments being flawed. What are your arguments for Rooney being a better forward than RVP?
Well, he clearly can't play right back, as we've seen. And if he can't do that, how is he one of the most versatile wingers around exactly? As I've said though, it's not just about the positions he can play, it's about how versatile he is with the ball, and he's as one dimensional as you can get. So again, what the hell is versatile about him if he can in fact not do a decent job at right back?
I don't think he is, and I guess that's where we differ, isn't it? I never argued against you saying RvP is the better player by the way, that's fine for you to think, I argued against your logic that Rooney has somehow declined, which is simply not true. There's no point going into a debate on who's better at passing, finishing, crossing, whatever because clearly we're all going to have different opinions based on which of the two we rate higher in those aspects.
Some people disagree with you, or at least used to, in that he can be a fairly decent fullback. Either way, I think you're making a moot point here seeing that I said I don't think versatility counts for much when we're talking about world class players - I for one wouldn't put Rooney up as world class because he can play OK-ish as a midfielder when there are far better number tens and better strikers in the game.
You didn't argue against me, but you did argue that Rooney was the better forward player.
There is of course point in discussing who is the better passer or finisher of the two. His short passing and first touch are my two biggest concerns when Rooney plays as a number ten; he is too wasteful with the ball, whereas RVP hardly gives the ball away.