mancan92
Full Member
Pogba will start I think alot of people have to get over it. He is still our most talented player. It would genuinely be stupid to not put him in.
I'm still very doubtful that a 3 man midfield with both Pogba and Bruno in it will work. I wouldnt start Pogba against Spurs.
But Pogba walking back into the first 11 isn't exclusive to him, it happens everywhere. Once the better players return from long injury lay off they get integrated into the starting line up right away provided they are fit enough. Rashford will walk back into the starting line up. Harry Kane will walk back into Spurs 11, seen the same happen with Messi, KDB etc.Some good posts in this thread from both sides of the argument. I think there is a view that those who dont want him to walk back into this team question his ability. For me, that certainly isnt the case.
Pogba is undoubtedly a top quality player, and it would be very silly of us to not try to see whether he could work in a midfield 3 with Bruno + 1, but that doesnt have to happen by letting him walk straight back into a starting spot.
My opinion is certainly swayed by my belief that he isnt committed to this club, and that we should be looking forwards at this point in our squad rebuild. That might not be true, but it's far easier to believe that it is, and we have an outstanding run of form behind us that supports a view that we have found a great balance in the team.
I think it sends a strong message out to the squad to say that, despite Pogba's obvious talent, he and every other player should have to earn the shirt and perform well enough to keep it, something which each one of Fred, McT and now Matic can claim to have done.
But Pogba walking back into the first 11 isn't exclusive to him, it happens everywhere. Once the better players return from long injury lay off they get integrated into the starting line up right away provided they are fit enough. Rashford will walk back into the starting line up. Harry Kane will walk back into Spurs 11, seen the same happen with Messi, KDB etc.
It's absolutely infeasible to bench your best players when they are available with reason being that they have to prove themselves again, it simply doesn't work that way.
In terms of commitment, there are always speculation surrounding top players, and there are players who've angled for moves elsewhere but still get to play when they don't get their wishes. I mean Arsenal aren't going to start benching Aubameyang to integrate players they feel will be there long term. He'll still get to start games because he's their best player even if he hasn't nor look to commit himself to Arsenal. Same everywhere. I mean we did play Ronaldo despite him already committed to going to Madrid in a year time.
Pogba isn't the first top player that has looked to move to a better team if he felt his current one doesn't meet his standards and aspirations. He didn't get to move and he's still here as one of our best players, therefore we play him when available, just like how it's done everywhere else.
A couple of things to back up what i put is that Bruno is Oles signing. Pogba or his agent have been trying to get him out of the club, which has probably pissed Ole off. The last 12 games are probably the best we have done since Fergie left, if you include all the statistics, clean sheets, goals for and against. All done with Bruno in the side and Pogba on the sidelines. I will be very surprised to see Pogba start before Bruno-unless unfit.If Pogba were to stay in any sort of long run, I wouldn’t take it for granted that he’d spend the rest of his time here behind Fernandes either. Fernandes has had a great first few games, and given everyone a lift after coming in as a new player - but the road is long. I’m not convinced that he’s just established himself as a better midfielder than Pogba, and objectively speaking - I’m not sure he’s done anything Pogba hasn’t done in his short time here either. Scored a few pens, like Pogba, created a few chances, like Pogba does, given the ball away just as often (which I suspect will become more visible to some the ‘less new’ he is, or if our results were to not be good enough for a sustained period). I haven’t looked at their respective defensive stats, but I doubt they have been much different either, factually speaking. He’s first place in a number of departments in our team like passes forward, chances etc that Pogba was also first place in.
All I’m saying is don’t take it for granted that Pogba has no chance of getting into a team ahead of Bruno. I’m sure that idea looks ridiculous to many now, for many reasons, and I agree that it would be silly to start Pogba and not Bruno against Spurs, for example. But I wouldn’t put it past Pogba to have a few brilliant games and then we run into a game where we can only play one and the outcome seems a lot less obvious. But yea, I’m sure not many will agree now, but I thought I’d introduce that possibility because it will likely anger many if it comes to fruition. Just don’t be surprised if there are games where Ole has Pogba on the pitch and Bruno isn’t.
The team is clearly playing a lot better now than it was before Bruno joined - although Pogba wasn’t in that team either. The team is playing better than it has done, AT TIMES, with Pogba in it too, of course, but that is over a 3 year sample compared with one month. The team isn’t playing better than it has done in a number of other one month periods over the last 3 seasons too. The sample is too small to be definitive. I think Bruno’s consistent level is still a little unclear at the moment to be too absolute. Are we talking a Kevin De Bruyne player? I’m not sure yet that he’s in the highest bracket of AM in the world just yet, need to see more. This isn’t necessarily about Pogba either. If Pogba were sold, and we bought Havertz, for example, there is no guarantee that Bruno would not end up as a squad player, in the long run, if we felt we were better with just one. Do we have a De Bruyne or an Eriksen? Don’t think we know yet. With an Eriksen, at a club of this size, there is no guarantee that you will always play. A De Bruyne, certainly. An Eriksen is at risk from either better players or better form players at a club like this. Right now it’s 7 or 8 good games and no real bad ones, so it looks great. After 100, hopefully he is even better, but it isn’t promised.
What I’ll clarify again before people think this is mere ‘agenda’ or whatever, is that right now, if we are to make a choice between Pogba and Fernandes, then it has to be Bruno. I’m just saying that I’m not certain either Bruno is that good or Pogba that bad that such a scenario is set in stone. I can’t imagine Pogba being satisfied with being seen as second choice, and if it gives him a kick to put out the best he’s capable of, I think his best may well be better than Bruno’s.
But Pogba walking back into the first 11 isn't exclusive to him, it happens everywhere. Once the better players return from long injury lay off they get integrated into the starting line up right away provided they are fit enough. Rashford will walk back into the starting line up. Harry Kane will walk back into Spurs 11, seen the same happen with Messi, KDB etc.
It's absolutely infeasible to bench your best players when they are available with reason being that they have to prove themselves again, it simply doesn't work that way.
In terms of commitment, there are always speculation surrounding top players, and there are players who've angled for moves elsewhere but still get to play when they don't get their wishes. I mean Arsenal aren't going to start benching Aubameyang to integrate players they feel will be there long term. He'll still get to start games because he's their best player even if he hasn't nor look to commit himself to Arsenal. Same everywhere. I mean we did play Ronaldo despite him already committed to going to Madrid in a year time.
Pogba isn't the first top player that has looked to move to a better team if he felt his current one doesn't meet his standards and aspirations. He didn't get to move and he's still here as one of our best players, therefore we play him when available, just like how it's done everywhere else.
I think Pogba not starting isn't even the issue (since he should and most likely will).Pogba will start I think alot of people have to get over it. He is still our most talented player. It would genuinely be stupid to not put him in.
Not even true. Ole's initial run of 8 straight wins is still better than that and it starred Pogba. Also it's quite the leap to assume Ole is pissed with Pogba. He's done nothing but say positive things about him which lead me to believe he has no issues with him.A couple of things to back up what i put is that Bruno is Oles signing. Pogba or his agent have been trying to get him out of the club, which has probably pissed Ole off. The last 12 games are probably the best we have done since Fergie left, if you include all the statistics, clean sheets, goals for and against. All done with Bruno in the side and Pogba on the sidelines. I will be very surprised to see Pogba start before Bruno-unless unfit.
Where does this myth comes from and why do people on these boards keep perpetuating it. Pogba has mostly played in a 2 pivot for the most part here, even Mourinho, a defensively minded and cautious manager played Pogba as part of a 2 in big games. We thumped Chelsea playing with a pivot of Pogba and McTominay. Ole's preferred formation is a 4231 which in normal circumstances(meaning when we have the full squad and Pogba available), Pogba features as one of the 2 midfield behind the number 10.Pogba do not have a clear role in our system though. As one of two defensive midfielders he has struggled before. It is hard to know if it will work against better sides.
With Mctominay and Fred we know what we got.
I hope we play a diamond though, but would not be happy with only one of Matic,Fred and Mctominay vs Spurs.
Where does this myth comes from and why do people on these boards keep perpetrating it. Pogba has mostly played in a 2 pivot for the part here, even Mourinho a defensive minded and cautious manager played Pogba as part of a 2 in big games. We thumped Chelsea playing with a pivot of Pogba and McTominay. Ole's preferred formation is a 4231 which is normal circumstances(meaning when we have the full squad or Pogba available), Pogba features as one of the 2 midfield behind the number 10.
We've seen Pogba play in a 2 and that's how he's mostly been used here and it has worked when the quality was there. Playing Pogba in a 2 isn't some unknown like it's being perpetrated for some reason, it's something we deploy when we have a full squad. Seems to me like people just want to believe Pogba is this inept player at doing any sort of defensive work that he can't be trusted to play in a 2 when that how he's mostly been deployed here even by the cautious and defensively minded Mourinho.
The myth has to die at some point. It is worrisome how it's stuck and being passed off as fact.
A couple of things to back up what i put is that Bruno is Oles signing. Pogba or his agent have been trying to get him out of the club, which has probably pissed Ole off. The last 12 games are probably the best we have done since Fergie left, if you include all the statistics, clean sheets, goals for and against. All done with Bruno in the side and Pogba on the sidelines. I will be very surprised to see Pogba start before Bruno-unless unfit.
I agree with @Rozay
I want to see United impose their game on teams and want to see both Pogba and Fernandes starting. Both have the craft and guile we have missed for so long in central areas that it would be a crime not to see them both in the same line-up consistently.
I also agree that Matic should be starting. He's the only specialist DM we have and was playing very well before things came to a abrupt end.
Makes sense..I actually think that, until the end of this season at least, we may start 4 central players in our tougher games. We have no regular starter on the right wing, and in tougher games in the past we have played Rashford and Martial as split strikers, usually with Lingard as a false 9/10 in the middle. I think a formation that may be considered for tougher games is Martial and Rashford as split strikers, with Bruno as a 10 quite close to them and a regular midfield 3 behind. We first tried this against Spurs last season to great effect.
Neither. Start with Matic who is the only DM we have.
Neither. Start with Matic who is the only DM we have.
He didn't work in a two a lot under Mourinho and Mourinho dropped him for it for Mctominay in some big games.Not even true. Ole's initial run of 8 straight wins is still better than that and it starred Pogba. Also it's quite the leap to assume Ole is pissed with Pogba. He's done nothing but say positive things about him which lead me to believe he has no issues with him.
Where does this myth comes from and why do people on these boards keep perpetuating it. Pogba has mostly played in a 2 pivot for the most part here, even Mourinho, a defensively minded and cautious manager played Pogba as part of a 2 in big games. We thumped Chelsea playing with a pivot of Pogba and McTominay. Ole's preferred formation is a 4231 which in normal circumstances(meaning when we have the full squad and Pogba available), Pogba features as one of the 2 midfield behind the number 10.
We've seen Pogba play in a 2 and that's how he's mostly been used here and it has worked when the quality was there. Playing Pogba in a 2 isn't some unknown like it's being perpetually claimed for some reasons, it's something we deploy when we have a full squad. Seems to me like people just want to believe Pogba is this inept player at doing any sort of defensive work that he can't be trusted to play in a 2 when that is exactly how he's mostly been deployed here even by the ever cautious and defensively minded Mourinho.
The myth has to die at some point. It is worrisome how it's stuck and being passed off as fact.
Well, no player should have his place guaranteed, but should be earned on merit. Judging by the most recent performances, Bruno should be in the team.Are you guys seriously grouping Pogba together with Fred, Matic and Scott as non sure starters? Unless you're trying to imply anything to do with Pogba's fitness(which shouldn't be a problem by now), there is simply no rational in thinking that Pogba isn't a nail on starter. Since when did this idea that Pogba would need to fight for his place and prove himself against the likes of Fred, Matic and Scott started.
It's such a ridiculous thing that keeps getting mentioned for some reasons.
People seem to have wilfully ignored your post. People will post missed tackles and dribbled past stats but where are the possession won stats? Where are the errors leading to goals stats? These are the only defensive metrics I'm interested in.Does this stat take in to fact that even if he is dribbled pass he sticks to that person like glue and inevitably gets back at them and take the ball off of the,.
He‘s arguably the most dogged player we’ve had in quite some time it’s like there is no shaking him. He will repeatedly keep putting his foot in slowing people up forcing an error even if he’s not coming away with the ball 60% of the time.
I do think both he and McT do take a lot of risks in their own half compared to someone like a Matic but when it comes off it comes off in a big way and if Fred continues playing like he was pre lockdown with Bruno there is just no way he can be dropped. he was pretty much everything to the team and everywhere.
what even qualifies as dribbled past anyway? What are the requirements. Do they have to square him up then go past him on the dribble. For example against Wolves he was tasked with protecting Williams against Traore one game, but if he has to move across sideways to intercept Traores run but Traores pace means they get in a race does Traores pure speed count as him being dribbled past.People seem to have wilfully ignored your post. People will post missed tackles and dribbled past stats but where are the possession won stats? Where are the errors leading to goals stats? These are the only defensive metrics I'm interested in.
what even qualifies as dribbled past anyway? What are the requirements. Do they have to square him up then go past him on the dribble. For example against Wolves he was tasked with protecting Williams against Traore one game, but if he has to move across sideways to intercept Traores run but Traores pace means they get in a race does Traores pure speed count as him being dribbled past.
it’s just such a weird stat.
I was actually pretty shocked when I saw the stat as from watching him it’s not something I’ve ever noticed. Actually thought he’d have quite a high tackle success rate. He just looks like he’d be a nightmare to play against as like I said he just looks dogged and like he gives everyone a hard time. He’s just a relentless machine.
Depends on the day and opponent.
Either way you put it Fred and McTominay don't deserve to be dropped and I'd be a bit disheartened if i were them. They've done enough to win their places in the team.
Stick Pogba on the right until he's got games under his belt.
This seems like a far more relevant stat, thanks for sharing.Just saw this .
”No player in the side who has featured in more than five league games has managed to win possession more times than his 9.81 per 90 minutes.
In fact, Fred might be able to replicate Kante's role. The Chelsea man has managed to win the ball back less than the Brazilian, at 8.58 per 90 minutes.”
Extract from a news story.