Which manager left the team in the worst state?

[Crashoutcassius]

You don't get my point. Ole collapsed completely with a team he built. Ralf is doing badly with a team that is 100% inherited.

The team Ole inherited won the League Cup, Europa League, finished runner up in the league and runner up in the FA cup, in what way did he take us forward from that?

That everyone agreed that Ole improved the team dramatically is also completely made up. Both on here and fans and in real life argued constantly about this.

Ole improved this team so much that 90% would agree that this group of players won't ever win anything and that we most likely need a complete overhaul to go forward from here.

that last sentence of yours is the narrative because people feel like idiots after their bold predictions that anyone would win titles with this squad.

if someone can find me the sentence you typed from the start of the season... that we needed a total rebuild and that the signing ole had made set us back a decade... even if you found one sample out of the 100s of thousands of united fans... but you wont because it is a revisionist view to get out of looking like these people know nothing about football

 

[mu4c_20le]

Ole didn't just leave behind a shit squad, he left behind a culture of laziness and entitlement that has basically created an impossible job for Rangnick and an incredibly difficult job ahead for Ten Hag also.

This post suggests he created such a culture. The reality is that the brand stuff started long ago before him and like his predecessors, he didn't or couldn't do anything to change it. Once the players realized the club was in decline post SAF and wasn't close to challenging for the title, some of them treated it like an ATM and started focusing on maximizing their own brands.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

You’re really comparing Ole with Ralf who was only an interim?

We have also spent under Ole alot of money on players quite frankly not good enough. Maguire, AWB, Telles, VDB.

We still need to revamp defence, we need to revamp the attacking line too now and we still need to revamp midfield.

We have though massively increased the wage bill whilst regressing one of our top talents in Rashford

what was wage bill the day ole took over and what is it today. i recall ole taking the wage bill down dramatically moving on the likes of alexis. he was critisized by that of course by the same idiots that said he made our squad too thin haha. usual idiots clinging to whatever is the vogue twitter narrative (currently it is that ralf couldn't be expected to beat the bottom four teams because ole told the players they dont have to try 6 months ago, wierd nonsense)

 

[Nicolarra90]

Has to be Ole. Who knew handing over the keys to someone completely unexperienced in any way shape or form would result in this.

Maguire waste of money
AWB waste of money
DVB waste of money
Pellestri still nothing yet
Amad still nothing yet
Tom Heaton pointless
Alex Telles not good enough
Sancho still has a lot to prove
Dan James has already gone
Varane is injured all the time
Cavani is injured all the time
Bruno is about the only decent signing and he has the capability to frustrate as much as anyone

The cultural reboot was nothing but a load of crap.

Our midfield players today were the same midfield players we put out against Everton when we lost 4-0 to them around 3/4 years ago

You can say that about any player post SAF

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

over his hundred or so games before this season he was better than ralf has been. everyone agreed he also dramatically improved the squad (until they needed an excuse for ralf this season). the team he inherited had lingard, martial and andreas as important players. now its bruno and sancho in those positions. neither manager has won anything, but we look further with ralf vs oles 2/3 place and litany of semis and finals

Funny spin there, let's have a try.

Ralf inherited a team that had AWB, McTominay and a captain suffering from an absolute horror season as important players, oh, and he has no fecking choice but to play them else play a kid like Elanga, cause unlike Ole he's spent £0.

For what it's worth, he didn't inherit Andreas as an important player at all, it actually often looked more like this for Mourinho:

DDG
Young Smalling Lindelöf Shaw

Younger Matic Herrera
More motivated Pogba

Rashford Lukaku Martial
​

I'd actually bet on that team against today's line up. You certainly don't see a 300m improvement on it do you?

And I'd take the Martial from a few seasons ago over what little Sancho has produced this season.

 

[Canagel]

Jose left us lukaku, sanchez, Fellaini, Darmian, young. It's Jose

At the time Mourinho left I would have said Mourinho but the deadwood left by Mourinho was relatively easy to get rid of and at least some of those players like Fellaini, Darmian and Young won trophies here. The deadwood left by Ole have won us nothing and it will take us years to clear them on top of that because they are on big wages so they will be issues for the next manager.

Ole left us Wan Bissaka, Maguire (captain), Bruno, Telles, Cavani, Ronaldo. He also made Mctominay a starter and indulged Rashford. Varane is looking like a potential dud too. Who will take these players off us?

 

[Cassidy]

what was wage bill the day ole took over and what is it today. i recall ole taking the wage bill down dramatically moving on the likes of alexis. he was critisized by that of course by the same idiots that said he made our squad too thin haha. usual idiots clinging to whatever is the vogue twitter narrative (currently it is that ralf couldn't be expected to beat the bottom four teams because ole told the players they dont have to try 6 months ago, wierd nonsense)

The wage bill is higher now

 

[Idxomer]

I'd actually bet on that team against today's line up. You certainly don't see a 300m improvement on it do you?

Yep, that team Ole inherited had a point to prove. The current one has all but given up after spending 3 years under his incompetence.

 

[Nicolarra90]

Anyway Ole left it in a pretty bad state and RR hasn't done any favor. So now is the worst state we've ever been since 1990.

 

[L1nk]

You can say that about any player post SAF

But it’s never been absolute shit show as it’s been after Ole, after Moyes, LVG and Mourinho i would say we were a few players away. After this much championed cultural reboot it looks like the entitled attitude of these players is even worse and it looks like we need almost an entire team replacement. I have never hated a squad until now, but they have zero interest in performing for the badge, never mind the manager, and feel like they can make demands and such on the new manager? Ole catered to their every whim and this is what we get now

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

what was wage bill the day ole took over and what is it today. i recall ole taking the wage bill down dramatically moving on the likes of alexis. he was critisized by that of course by the same idiots that said he made our squad too thin haha. usual idiots clinging to whatever is the vogue twitter narrative (currently it is that ralf couldn't be expected to beat the bottom four teams because ole told the players they dont have to try 6 months ago, wierd nonsense)

You haven't thought this through surely?

He moved on Alexis but brought in Ronaldo on more money and convinced Cavani who didn't want to stay to extend on a massive deal.

In 2018-19 our wage bill was estimated at 150,000,000, today it's estimated at 208,000,000. https://www.spotrac.com/epl/payroll/

 

[mu4c_20le]

You can say that about any player post SAF

I don't think he is even the worst in the transfer market. Maguire is in poor form at the moment but is still a starter for England, a decent manager will get the best out of him again. Jose and LVG both made some shockers.

 

[Andy_Cole]

The only thing that was holding the current squad back was the manager. That was the widely held opinion on here in November anyway .

This. We thought man for man we had a team assembled for the league. So how can it be Ole?

 

[Idxomer]

This. We thought man for man we had a team assembled for the league. So how can it be Ole?

No, people who thought that were living in a dreamland.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

This. We thought man for man we had a team assembled for the league. So how can it be Ole?

Some did, I thought we have a squad that could certainly mount a challenge late into the season, I've even tagged Leftback a few times to say how right he was an how wrong I was.

We've taken a squad that gained 80+ points in the Prem, that had won 3 trophies in the previous two seasons to that, spent over 300m, increased our wage budget by 60,000,000, and we're worse, fecking miles worse. All of that spending fooled so many of us into thinking that Ole's saving grace was that the squad was excellent, and much better than what it was performing at for a poor coach. The evidence since tells us that no, despite all that spend, and that wage increase, we're actually just fecking shite.

But yeah, how is that on Ole?

 

[Crashoutcassius]

You haven't thought this through surely?

He moved on Alexis but brought in Ronaldo on more money and convinced Cavani who didn't want to stay to extend on a massive deal.

In 2018-19 our wage bill was estimated at 150,000,000, today it's estimated at 208,000,000. https://www.spotrac.com/epl/payroll/

havent thought through what? asking a question? you are trying to hard to win the internet today. just asked the question and put in my bit from memory, the sanchez situation and the criticism ole got of taking the wage bill down

 

[Andy_Cole]

Some did, I thought we have a squad that could certainly mount a challenge late into the season, I've even tagged Leftback a few times to say how right he was an how wrong I was.

We've taken a squad that gained 80+ points in the Prem, that had won 3 trophies in the previous two seasons to that, spent over 300m, increased our wage budget by 60,000,000, and we're worse, fecking miles worse. All of that spending fooled so many of us into thinking that Ole's saving grace was that the squad was excellent, and much better than what it was performing at for a poor coach. The evidence since tells us that no, despite all that spend, and that wage increase, we're actually just fecking shite.

But yeah, how is that on Ole?

Footballers are only as good as the last 6 months. For that time we’ve been shit. But I also think we were miss managed and a top manager could make a lot of these great. Also there’s an attitude issue that certainly needs to be sorted. Again doesn't fault their ability.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Wait, Ole created one of the most exciting teams we've seen since Sir Alex. We finished 2nd last year and whilst he had a complete car crash this season, the team that he left us, especially on paper, isn't bad. I just think RR hasn't been able to push on with them like Conte has with Spurs.

In regards to your question, it's a hard one to answer. Its hard to blame any manager, simply because they've come in and obviously wanted to put their own spin on the team. As a result, they've brought in their own players and staff. Unfortunately, it didn't really work out for any of them, but if there's anyone to blame, it's whoever was in charge of the manager appointments.

First off, Moyes was always a massive risk, but it was the recommendation of Sir Alex which obviously couldn't go unnoticed. However, after that, we've gone from a counter attacking coach, who played a 4231, to a possession based coach in Van Gaal, who initially played with a 352.

Had we went with a similar style of manager, who used the same formation, style and profile of players, it would have meant we'd not have to start our process every time we appointed a new manager, and this is exactly what RR has been talking about, which makes me slightly optimistic to see what happens in the next few years and how it takes shape.

We need to find an indentity, stick with it and even if it doesn't work out for the manager, we can continue with that plan without having to start the process again.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

The inconsistency lads...

Someone answer this as best you can

was squad good or was squad bad

if squad good - well done ole on making squad good, needed to go as couldn't get the best out of squad. ralf doing bad with good squad.

if squad bad - well then ole did well with a bad squad, well done ole on managing the team, plenty of blame to go round on recruitment. poor ralf took over bad squad.

people want a goldilocks scenario where ole was a bad 'director of football' picking bad players, so assembled a bad squad, was a bad manager because the teams league positions and cup finishes were worse than the calibre of the squad. can't have it.

nobody ever has a good answer to this paradox. one person said 'ole had a good squad for him but a bad squad for a modern manager.... a real goldilocks scenario there, ole is to blame if another manager that plays a different way comes in and cant get the team to play a style it wasn't assembled for...

 

[Mercurial]

Moyes for gutting out our institutional organization and leaving us with midtable mindset. He more than anyone else shifted power to Ed by ripping out long time voices of reason and institutional memory, excellence and knowhow. The despair I felt when Moyes ripped our title winning organization and legends apart just to not be challenged was brutal emotionally. The fact that he was sacked so fast made it all feel so careless. Was a TKO of sorts. He manifested us into midtable hell with his small-time presence top to bottom.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

if squad good - well done ole on making squad good, needed to go as couldn't get the best out of squad. ralf doing bad with good squad.

if squad bad - well then ole did well with a bad squad, well done ole on managing the team, plenty of blame to go round on recruitment. poor ralf took over bad squad.

If squad bad - how the feck did you take over a team that finished on 80+ points, spend 300 million quid, increase the wage bill by 60 million quid /year and only manage a 74 point season at best, and even at the tail end of that season, running into your final car crash season, have a run of form for 22 games that included 10 losses.

How you say? You do it by being a bit crap.

You have two problems there especially when you dare to call our inconsistency , you say good squad = well done Ole, bad squad = poor recruitment team. Which is it?

The squad is shite, no two ways about that.

 

[Green_Red]

Ole unfortunately. Someone mentioned the 3rd place (very lucky, low points total) and the 2nd place (better but Pool and Chelsea in absolute disarray) but it's the mentality he's left behind, the players who can only seem to do well in a counter attack/underdog set up, it's just appalling.

Funny thing is you say that about us finishing second and third, that it was only because Chelsea and Pool were in disarray, but when they finish second or third it's because we're shit, not disarray like we havent had a lot of upheaval at the club this year.. In both narratives United are either lucky or shit, but it's never the same narrative for the other teams. It's also worth pointing out that years Chelsea and Pool were supposedly in disarray they had pretty much the same squad they have now when they're not, so another interesting point, why can't this squad we have now thats in disarray not come back next season and have a really good season under a new manager. It has to be that are players are useless and not up to the task. Why suddenly are Pool and Chelsea competing thus year with the same squad that was in disarray last season when we were supposedly lucky yo come 2nd and get to a Europa League final. No matter what the negativity saddled on our club is shocking. A lot of over reaction and not very well thought out opinions sometimes.

 

[Blood Mage]

This post suggests he created such a culture. The reality is that the brand stuff started long ago before him and like his predecessors, he didn't or couldn't do anything to change it. Once the players realized the club was in decline post SAF and wasn't close to challenging for the title, some of them treated it like an ATM and started focusing on maximizing their own brands.

Oh it was players like Pogba, Lingard and Rashford that got the ball rolling yes, but in his desperation to be everyone's mate Ole pandered to the egos of these players and caused them to develop a sense of undue self-importance. He let them get away with murder for too long.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Funny thing is you say that about us finishing second and third, that it was only because Chelsea and Pool were in disarray, but when they finish second or third it's because we're shit, not disarray like we havent had a lot of upheaval at the club this year.. In both narratives United are either lucky or shit, but it's never the same narrative for the other teams. It's also worth pointing out that years Chelsea and Pool were supposedly in disarray they had pretty much the same squad they have now when they're not, so another interesting point, why can't this squad we have now thats in disarray not come back next season and have a really good season under a new manager. It has to be that are players are useless and not up to the task. Why suddenly are Pool and Chelsea competing thus year with the same squad that was in disarray last season when we were supposedly lucky yo come 2nd and get to a Europa League final. No matter what the negativity saddled on our club is shocking. A lot of over reaction and not very well thought out opinions sometimes.

We’ve managed one single 80+ point season since SAF retired, so the Chelsea in disarray is a nonsense point, Liverpool though, you had to be an absolute moron to believe we were anything like the second best team in England last season. Liverpool are headed for like their 3rd 90 +point season in 4 seasons.

We got second last season because Liverpool started the season in disarray, losing CB’s all over the shop.

 

[Lentwood]

Its a moot point because its not 1995 and "managers" are not "managers" in that sense of the word any longer.

Moyes, LvG, Jose and Ole all had one common thread running through their tenure....Ed Woodward

 

[Idxomer]

We’ve managed one single 80+ point season since SAF retired, so the Chelsea in disarray is a nonsense point, Liverpool though, you had to be an absolute moron to believe we were anything like the second best team in England last season. Liverpool are headed for like their 3rd 90 +point season in 4 seasons.

We got second last season because Liverpool started the season in disarray, losing CB’s all over the shop.

And overall they still played better football than United.

 

[RopersReturn]

Ole, unfortunately he was given free reign to spend a fortune on recruiting championship quality players. Consequently when results started to slide he really didn’t have the ability or experience to handle the pressure.

 

[Roboc7]

Ole was a disaster in medium/long term, short term he did ok but accumulation of lots of poor decisions has left squad as a shit show. Said when he left the culture at the club was appalling and virtually everything he did has to be dismantled. He should have gone in the summer, fact he got a new contract was a joke and reflects very poorly on everyone involved in that decision:

The management post SAF has been shocking so it’s one calamity after the other and none of the managers can hold their head high, neither can a lot of people behind the scenes but they seem to be very secure in their jobs for some reason.

 

[caid]

I'd think i'd vote for SAF if i could to be honest. The team has gotten worse mostly in the interim but the team he left needed players in pretty much every position. Jones, Evans and Smalling weren't good enough. Da Silva's weren't good enough, Evra needed replacing. De Gea was for a time but became a bit of a liability ages ago. Carrick was our only midfielder worth mentioning. Valencia, Young and Nani on the wings weren't worth much. Rooney and Van Persie's time was coming to an end.
The rot set in years ago when we started buying guys like Anderson and Nani hoping to sell them on in 5 years for 6 times the price like Ronaldo. When we started looking for value in the market instead of buying the best available. We spent endless time and energy on getting noodle sponsors while the stadium our football team plays in became run down.

 

[RopersReturn]

Ole didn't just leave behind a shit squad, he left behind a culture of laziness and entitlement that has basically created an impossible job for Rangnick and an incredibly difficult job ahead for Ten Hag also.

Spot on.

 

[DoctorPepper]

It's Ole. He was given the most freedom to leave it in a bad state. Now the squad is an expensive mess that will take years to get rid.

 

[MadMike]

I don't understand why an interim manager with no power to make signings (talking about Rangnick) was added to this list. Might as well add Carrick and Giggs on the list then.

On the other hand, perhaps controversially, I think we should add SAF to the list. Yes he did win the league in 2012/13, but that was more of a testament to his managerial ability (and weakness of rivals that season), than the strength of the squad. It wasn't a squad that could challenge Man City or Chelsea going forward without significant investment.

 

[Irwin99]

Funny thing is you say that about us finishing second and third, that it was only because Chelsea and Pool were in disarray, but when they finish second or third it's because we're shit, not disarray like we havent had a lot of upheaval at the club this year.. In both narratives United are either lucky or shit, but it's never the same narrative for the other teams. It's also worth pointing out that years Chelsea and Pool were supposedly in disarray they had pretty much the same squad they have now when they're not, so another interesting point, why can't this squad we have now thats in disarray not come back next season and have a really good season under a new manager. It has to be that are players are useless and not up to the task. Why suddenly are Pool and Chelsea competing thus year with the same squad that was in disarray last season when we were supposedly lucky yo come 2nd and get to a Europa League final. No matter what the negativity saddled on our club is shocking. A lot of over reaction and not very well thought out opinions sometimes.

I thought it incredibly disingenuous when a lot of people on here were bigging up United's squad and downplaying Liverpool's defensive crisis which was one of the worst i've seen. Obviously all fans exaggerate when it comes to their teams but that was what we used to call 'RAWK levels of delusion' going on. There's no way our defensive crisis in 2009-10 (which by the way was BAD!!!) was anywhere near as long or as heavy as theirs, as was often suggested on here. Chelsea's rebuild was going south under Lampard but their defence and midfield were still, man for man, much better than ours. They got their act together and won the champions league and probably should have won the FA Cup.

As for the negativity around our club it's kind of hard to be happy and smiley when you see the state the squad is in today. For the way he's still splitting the fan base I would say Ole's appointment has been every bit as toxic as Jose's tenure here, just in a different way. 400 million spent, 'DNA', 'rebuild', cultural reboot nonsense, fans constantly bickering over him (I guess I stand guilty of that)... he was just not a very good or positive manager for us in the long run.

 

[Longshanks]

The mental gymnastics going on in this thread, the same posters ripping into Ole earlier in the season for not getting enough out of this very talented squad, now claiming the squad is crap as a vehicle to bash Ole with.

Its the 4th best squad in the league, it was at the start of the season it still is now, Liverpool, Chelsea and City have better squads but we have a better squad than spurs and arsenal although not by a huge amount.

I think Ole would of got us 4th this season (not that, that would of been good enough after 3 seasons and what he had spent) the reason everyone thinks the squad is crap is because we now have a really crap manager unable to get anything out of what is still a decent squad if not quite good enough.

 

[Denis79]

that last sentence of yours is the narrative because people feel like idiots after their bold predictions that anyone would win titles with this squad.

if someone can find me the sentence you typed from the start of the season... that we needed a total rebuild and that the signing ole had made set us back a decade... even if you found one sample out of the 100s of thousands of united fans... but you wont because it is a revisionist view to get out of looking like these people know nothing about football

I really believed that this would be a decent season and when Ole left I was really hoping that a new coach would get this going but it's starting to lean towards the team being really poor trained both physically and mentally. This squad is an unbalanced mess and that is a product of Ole's time in charge. It's no wonder that we were as inconsistent as we were.

 

[Elcabron]

At the time Mourinho left I would have said Mourinho but the deadwood left by Mourinho was relatively easy to get rid of and at least some of those players like Fellaini, Darmian and Young won trophies here. The deadwood left by Ole have won us nothing and it will take us years to clear them on top of that because they are on big wages so they will be issues for the next manager.

Ole left us Wan Bissaka, Maguire (captain), Bruno, Telles, Cavani, Ronaldo. He also made Mctominay a starter and indulged Rashford. Varane is looking like a potential dud too. Who will take these players off us?

I take your point. Though cavani wanted to leave in January and is easy to get rid of as he will be going in summer. I dont blame ole at all for Ronaldo as I am convinced that was Fergies doing (he even phoned him to convince him to come back). I think Mctominay is perfectly fine as a squad player, just not one of those automatic starters that every team needs. Was in not Jose who made him a starter anyway? I remember he won that award that Jose made up especially for him so a bit unfair to blame Ole for that.

Don't agree with you on Bruno at all( goals and assists wise he is one of the best in the PL) and our best signing in years, don't know how you can say he is deadwood and if he was, Ole is not responsible for the contract he signed last week. Maguire and AVB yes I agree and also agree re Rashford being over indulged. Ole did actually leave the squad very bloated when I think about it i.e. Henderson and Lingard should both have been sold last summer and a few others too.

Perhaps Ole is responsible for the sense of entitlement many of them seem to have, Rashford in particular and maybe being responsible for that is worse than anything Jose did.

 

[glazed]

I would say SAF as he left us with the Glazers.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

Rubbish excuses?! Thats how it is, not giving my opinion here, i understand that sacking of Ole must be hard for you, life of a drone aint easy without a mothership. Here is how i know you talking shit, if you had any idea of my stances regarding Ole pre and post his sacking, you wouldnt say that i was conned by a hipster, unlike you, dont have follower mentality.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I think Ole would of got us 4th this season (not that, that would of been good enough after 3 seasons and what he had spent) the reason everyone thinks the squad is crap is because we now have a really crap manager unable to get anything out of what is still a decent squad if not quite good enough.

I’ll say it again, Ole with this squad in his last 22 games did plenty worse than Ralf in his first 22 games.
Ole was in no fecking way, shape or form getting us 4th man we were losing to the likes of Young Boys, Villa at home, getting humiliating spanked by Watford under Ole this season.

I mean, how the funk can you even think that? Ole’s best ever season landed him 74 points, Spurs will likely not be far off that, yet you’d have Ole like a Phoenix from the flames clawing back a points tally after that season start? You must be smoking something rotten, or awesome.

The squad is clearly crap and neither Ole, nor Ragnick can get a tune of it, that spans into the final couple of months of last season, and if you honestly think we’re better than Spurs now you’re living in cloud cuckoo land.

 

[Crick]

The rot set in with Mourinho. He allowed the laziness to come in as he didn't care if they ran. They were down at 9km avg per game within 6 months with his only pressing in our own half garbage. He then blamed the players publicly when things didn't work and they lost confidence so they started to play within themselves, without freedom. This is something we see regularly when players hide from the ball when it goes against them. They lack fight and the ability to dig in during hard moments.

Ole was brought in to be nice to them to make them feel better because of Jose. It was just ridiculous he was then made permanent. They (board and Ole) made poor decisions with players as Ole didn't have a set, competent way of playing in a way that has worked since the mid 1990's. So now it's a shitshow and we have to make a statement to the players.

RR is a DOF, not a manager. He has just tried the basics to get them to run, fight and defend and they won't. The players are in complete control. This has to be stopped at any cost but I doubt the club will see it that way. Nothing will change until this is fixed. You hear the same view on here. Its RR's fault, with a good manager everything will be fine. The players are good enough. We just need some like Conte or Simeone to shout at them. It wouldn't work, this group of players are rotten. I don't trust any of them. They are lazy and weak.

It reminds me of when Sir Alex came and the drinking and gambling culture in the players. They were a great squad on paper but they would rather drink than work hard in training or on the pitch. They could blow teams away on their day but not over a season. Great players individually, awful team. They had to go even though it took a long time to get rid of them. You can't win with a group mentality like that. The best teams work hard and fight as well as being skilful.

We have to get a new first 11 asap and to back ETH. Nothing will change until we do. It will probably be 3 transfer windows until we see improvement. We need 15 out and 9 first 11 players in as quickly as we can. With our club this will take a long time. It always easier to get rid of the manager than the players.