When will we stop being crap?

Ollie Derbyshire said:
If I’m being honest we need so many new players…

New GK
New LCB Yoro New RCB
Diallo Ugarte New CM Mazraoui
New 10 New 10
New ST
​
De Ligt, Martinez, Mainoo, Garnacho, Hojlund, Zirkzee, Bruno, Rashford, Mount etc should all be on the bench or sold.
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Man, I don’t love your squad, but that take is dire.

The correct answer really was forcing a full sale of the club, one that would have allowed the debt resolution to be included in the purchase.

Barring that you immediately need a LCB. It should be someone that knows how to play that role, help beat the press and help recover. It’s almost like Hincapie was available relatively cheap recently …

If I were Amorim I would seriously consider ait nouri at lwb. Maz can rotate to wingback and RCB depending on how you set up tactically for a team. Dalot is awful.

I think with your budget issues you MUST try to help Mainoo/Ugarte partnership in the middle work, and target even younger high level talents to push them.

You need one of the inside 10’s at least to be a creative force.

You can’t really think about striker until you’ve offloaded. Working towards a lower, more incentive based salary structure will be vital. If you bring in a Mcatee or a Dibling don’t automatically throw 180/wk at them because your United. Include renegotiation markers that can be hit in their contract.
 
Bluelion7 said:
Man, I don’t love your squad, but that take is dire.

The correct answer really was forcing a full sale of the club, one that would have allowed the debt resolution to be included in the purchase.

Barring that you immediately need a LCB. It should be someone that knows how to play that role, help beat the press and help recover. It’s almost like Hincapie was available relatively cheap recently …

If I were Amorim I would seriously consider ait nouri at lwb. Maz can rotate to wingback and RCB depending on how you set up tactically for a team. Dalot is awful.

I think with your budget issues you MUST try to help Mainoo/Ugarte partnership in the middle work, and target even younger high level talents to push them.

You need one of the inside 10’s at least to be a creative force.

You can’t really think about striker until you’ve offloaded. Working towards a lower, more incentive based salary structure will be vital. If you bring in a Mcatee or a Dibling don’t automatically throw 180/wk at them because your United. Include renegotiation markers that can be hit in their contract.
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Maybe a bit dire, but who from the ones I left out would you put in?
I’ve seen them all perform terrible for years now and some of the new ones like DeLigt/Martinez, maybe good enough but I want better!

We need to be spending our budget on some actual goal scoring threats.
 
wolvored said:
Agree. I would look to the young players to get game time as well. Basically RA could use this season to try a youth player a game and hopefully can find a gem or two along with the new recruits in the summer.
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And which youth player is a stand out in the youth league and is ready for the Premier league?
 
Can we have this written on a giant placard and held up at OT by a cute child, one sure to be picked up by the media attending the game.
 
We’ve never been so far away from being a top team. We’ve got no top draw players. We do have young talent though. 1-2 signings could change everything. The thing is we’re incapable of buying well, our recruitment is awful. If that can change we could be on the up very quickly. Something is truly broken there.
 
Our recruitment during ETH's reign and his time at the club might have done more damage than any other manager after SAF.

So much money and time wasted for zero progression.

We need to start hitting aces on our recruitment.

But it takes 1 good summer + a good managerial imprint for clear progress into being a top side again.

Maybe this summer, we start pushing towards the top again.
 
There was a moment, after Rangnick, we could've hit the reset button with ETH. I hoped he'd get rid of Rashford, Shaw and Bruno. (Maguire, McT etc) Instead he gave them huge new contracts and signed Casemiro and Eriksen. Plus a bunch of other mediocrity.

That was the moment we doomed ourselves and are now reaping the rewards and will continue to do so for many many years.
 
Your ownership is the issue. The Glazers and JP Morgan were greedy leeches who wanted to bleed Utd dry for financial gain and that plunged the club into a slow slide toward mediocrity. Your new majority shareholder is trying to raise ticket prices despite poor performances on the pitch and sacking club staff off field. Ratcliffe is just another greedy billionaire and unlike the Glazers he's into cost-cutting. Odd how a club as storied, profitable, well-supported as Utd needs to be owned by moneygrubbing billionaires. That itself seems like a big disadvantage compared to Bayern, Barcelona, Dortmund, Madrid and other big clubs owned by the fans or socios who vote on decisions for the benefit of the fans and club instead of a rich tycoon calling the shots.
 
Blood Mage said:
Hard to predict but when we overhaul our midfield I'd say. Bin off Mount, Casemiro and Eriksen and replace them with three quality players.
Click to expand...

It really is a black hole, missing everything you need in a midfield. Where every attack goes to die
 
Bondi77 said:
And which youth player is a stand out in the youth league and is ready for the Premier league?
Click to expand...
I don’t know exactly that’s why I said give them game time. Obi Martin? Kone maybe?
“You don’t know what you got until you put them in “- Matt Busby
 
wolvored said:
I don’t know exactly that’s why I said give them game time. Obi Martin? Kone maybe?
“You don’t know what you got until you put them in “- Matt Busby
Click to expand...
It is a different game now from the times of Sir Matt and I can guarantee you there are no Besties running around in our youth setup at the moment.
To put any 18yo straight into the rigours of a Premier League game could do them more damage then good and it is a massive step up even from Championship level to Premier level.
The recent examples of Mason and Kobbie are rare but Mason was tearing it up in the youth setup and Kobbie is still coming to terms with the pace of the league.
 
What’s a problem for the club
1. Scouting , which has not been up to standard when you see mid table clubs with supposedly less resources sign genuine goal scorers, hard working midfielders and dependable central defenders
2. Management, no idea from the top of the tree in owners, Woodward was left there far too long, and managers consistently changing the direction of style of play. Add in Solsjaer and ETH, both inexperienced at elite level and able to prioritise signings, what could go wrong, did
3. Getting Rangnick in and not liking his honest appraisal of the squad and carrying on as if he was wrong, Woody again I think.
 
FreakyJim said:
There was a moment, after Rangnick, we could've hit the reset button with ETH. I hoped he'd get rid of Rashford, Shaw and Bruno. (Maguire, McT etc) Instead he gave them huge new contracts and signed Casemiro and Eriksen. Plus a bunch of other mediocrity.

That was the moment we doomed ourselves and are now reaping the rewards and will continue to do so for many many years.
Click to expand...
ETH maybe stupid but those up there who allowed that level of stupidy to pull those decisions off should be investigated for being double agent for Liverpool.
 
This will go on until we have a manager that instruct:
1) Rashford to stop running into cul de sacs from the left. He needs to be reminded he is shit at it, will continue remaining shit at it no matter how many million times he tries it in a game. And fire his social media team.
2) Bruno that he is nowhere near a passer he think it is and play to his limitations keeping the ball.
3) Mcguire to concentrate more.
4) Shaw to pick up yoga pilates or whatever technique giggs picked up to reduce injury.
5) Onana that two passes to the centerback and then hoofing it up is still hoofing it up and its not playing from the back as he often think it is.
6) Dalot, he is average defender, ok attacker and not a prime Roberto Carlos to limit his 30 yards shooting every game.
 
It's all about recruitment and culture in modern football. Managers only get you so far.
 
Until we sign 4-5 quality players. Our left side offers nothing going forward for instance. Dalot does not cut it.
 
Until we stop trying to resurrect the Busby babes or the Class of 92 or we actually hit on a group of academy players at that level. Under 18's are doing well. So 5 years if we are lucky? Maybe
 
February at the earliest if we get a proper LWB and he hits the ground running, if not then hopefully next season which gives Amorim time to implement his style of play.
 
I actually think just two or three quality players added to the team could revolutionise our football but the question is, depending on how the rest of this campaign goes, can we even afford or attract the level of quality we need?

For me, add a player like Estupinan or Kerkez to the LWB spot, a midfielder like FdJ to partner Ugarte in the pivot and a no.10 like Wirtz and we'd be cooking then.
 
I feel as pessimistic as the next United fan, truly. However, it really is impossible to tell. There’s some real hyperbole going on this thread with some saying decades or being ‘unable to see us challenging for titles’.

Things change very quickly in football. Take Chelsea as a prime example - they’ve gone from midtable mediocrity, doom & gloom and being a general laughing stock, to looking really good this season.

A lot needs to change but you never know: two, three years time we could actually be semi decent if we make good decisions - a tall order I know.
 
When we have a core set of top highly competitive players who understands what it takes to play for Manchester United.
We need that again.
And goals.
A lot of teams we've faced over the last couple of years, their defenders have come off the pitch looking like they haven't even broken a sweat.
Unacceptable.
 
When we learn to stop getting so attached to players and sell them when it's clear they can't take us to the next level (eerily similar to the issue with past managers as well).

We simply never sell players when we should. If a player has a bad year, it's "give them time" no matter what. If they have another bad year, it's then "well this next season is it or he's done here". But then after the 3rd poor season the player has 0 value on the market and we can't even give him away at that point.

In a similar vein, if a player has a good season we sign them to a monstrous deal and say they are untouchable (why the feck would anyone in our squad be untouchable is beyond me). Because of these issues, it puts so much added pressure on to our recruitment as we are constantly having to patch holes at certain positions while other positions degrade and we do so without the reinforced buying power that other teams might have from selling off players. It's impossible to operate this way.

A serious club would genuinely look to cash in on Garnacho and Bruno this summer, sell Rashford to anyone that will take him, wish Maguire good luck as he heads out the door without a new contract, and drive Dalot to the airport if Madrid wants him for 50m. Reshape the attack completely with actual quality players that don't struggle to dribble a ball or don't want to run, reinforce the midfield and defense with more young quality, and get some lightning quick fullbacks that will contribute in attack so that we aren't stuck playing our most promising young attacker there. You can't make a real change while you let players stick around that have seen 3+ managers come and go.
 
RyRy11 said:
It's all about recruitment and culture in modern football. Managers only get you so far.
Click to expand...

That's always been the case.

The club with the best recruitment usually wins.

But the manager should be playing a big role in that. He should be the best scout at the club.
 
I really don’t think we’re in such a bad spot.
Ranking-wise, we currently are, no doubt.

But our squad is in a much better state than 1 to 2 seasons ago.
=> Defense: from Maguire Lindelof Evans to Yoro De Ligt Martinez
=> Midfield: from McFred to Mainoo-Ugarte

Attack is clearly still WIP but at least we are really making progress with the overall squad when it comes to our open heart surgery.

This squad:

Ollie Derbyshire said:
New GK
New LCB Yoro New RCB
Diallo Ugarte New CM Mazraoui
New 10 New 10
New ST
​
De Ligt, Martinez, Mainoo, Garnacho, Hojlund, Zirkzee, Bruno, Rashford, Mount etc should all be on the bench or sold.
Click to expand...

I’d argue that these have plenty of (shown) potential for a performing team:

Onana
Yoro De Light Martinez/ Shaw
Diallo Ugarte Mainoo Mazraoui
New 10 New 10
New ST​

For the attacking positions, Bruno, Hojlund, Garnacho and Zirkzee all have potential to still be added to starting team, but in case one or some dont click, then all we really need are a 10 and a 9.

Because the one thing we are forgetting is that good coaches turn shite players into good players and good players into great players.

Compare with Liverpool: after Klopp, they were doubting between Amorim and Slot. Many analysts suggested they were comparable, perhaps even some favoring Amorim. We all know how Slot is doing currently. But more important is the transition that occurred under slot at Feyenoord.
When Slot inherited the team, the pundits were falling over each other exclaiming the team’s players lacked quality. (They finished six in the league or so, the year before.) But in his first season he reached the conference league final and on his second season he won the league.

Not only he made the players better, he also made them look better, and as the team play improved, all these things came together and the sky became the limit.

This is what may happen with Amorim too, I have faith. Yes, we’ll need to buy a few players, especially on the front line, to get some goals in the team. But even with Ashworth gone, I believe
=> the overall structure is in the best shape in years,
=> the open heart squad surgery is almost completed
=> we have a great coach on board

The only shitty thing is that we are now in the middle of the season and there’s not much time to implement and improve in between matches. But slowly and steadily, improvements will come. Call me naive, call me an optimist, but i have faith :)
 
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Shabby as she goes said:
I really don’t think we’re in such a bad spot.
Ranking-wise, we currently are, no doubt.

But our squad is in a much better state than 1 to 2 seasons ago.
=> Defense: from Maguire Lindelof Evans to Yoro De Ligt Martinez
=> Midfield: from McFred to Mainoo-Ugarte

Attack is clearly still WIP but at least we are really making progress with the overall squad when it comes to our open heart surgery.

This squad:



I’d argue that these have plenty of (shown) potential for a performing team:

Onana
Yoro De Light Martinez/ Shaw
Diallo Ugarte Mainoo Mazraoui
New 10 New 10
New ST​

For the attacking positions, Bruno, Hojlund, Garnacho and Zirkzee all have potential to still be added to starting team, but in case one or some dont click, then all we really need are a 10 and a 9.

Because the one thing we are forgetting is that good coaches turn shite players into good players and good players into great players.

Compare with Liverpool: after Klopp, they were doubting between Amorim and Slot. Many analysts suggested they were comparable, perhaps even some favoring Amorim. We all know how Slot is doing currently. But more important is the transition that occurred under slot at Feyenoord.
When Slot inherited the team, the pundits were falling over each other exclaiming the team’s players lacked quality. (They finished six in the league or so, the year before.) But in his first season he reached the conference league final and on his second season he won the league.

Not only he made the players better, he also made them look better, and as the team play improved, all these things came together and the sky became the limit.

This is what may happen with Amorim too, I have faith. Yes, we’ll need to buy a few players, especially on the front line, to get some goals in the team. But even with Ashworth gone, I believe
=> the overall structure is in the best shape in years,
=> the open heart squad surgery is almost completed
=> we have a great coach on board

The only shitty thing is that we are now in the middle of the season and there’s not much time to implement and improve in between matches. But slowly and steadily, improvements will come. Call me naive, call me an optimist, but i have faith :)
Click to expand...
De Ligt has been decent, Martinez is having a very poor season though and needs to step it back up to nail down a starter position in a championship challenging team and Shaw hasn’t been fit for about 2 years which is a shame as I think he’d be perfect in that back 3.

We’ll have to agree to disagree on Mainoo, I don’t personally see him as a good fit next to Ugarte, he simply doesn’t have the engine to play that role.

I’d swap Garnacho and Diallo and see how they do, I think that’d suit them both much better, Bruno is on the decline and is as much a hindrance as a creative hub and neither Zirkzee or Hojlund have shown they can be the main goal scorer so far. I had high hopes for Hojlund but he’s not progressing fast enough and should be bench/rotation option for now.

New GK
Yoro De Ligt New LCB (Martinez?)
Garnacho Ugarte New CM Mazraoui
Diallo New 10 (Mainoo?)
New ST​
  1. Onana has been better but we should be looking to get a better keeper in, he’s made too many elementary errors and his passing isn’t that great.
  2. Martinez as I said is having a poor season, he might be able to turn it around, I hope so.
  3. We need an athletic CM to help out Ugarte.
  4. I’d try Mainoo as the 2nd 10, I think his quick feet and short passing would work well there.
  5. We 100% need a WC striker with Hojlund coming off the bench and being used against weaker teams.
  6. Could put Mazraoui as LCB and get a new quality LWB.
I fully agree a good/great coach should be able to get these lot playing better than they are now and more than the sum of their parts but to get us back challenging on all fronts we need to interest in some real quality.
 
Valencia Shin Crosses said:
When we learn to stop getting so attached to players and sell them when it's clear they can't take us to the next level (eerily similar to the issue with past managers as well).

We simply never sell players when we should. If a player has a bad year, it's "give them time" no matter what. If they have another bad year, it's then "well this next season is it or he's done here". But then after the 3rd poor season the player has 0 value on the market and we can't even give him away at that point.

In a similar vein, if a player has a good season we sign them to a monstrous deal and say they are untouchable (why the feck would anyone in our squad be untouchable is beyond me). Because of these issues, it puts so much added pressure on to our recruitment as we are constantly having to patch holes at certain positions while other positions degrade and we do so without the reinforced buying power that other teams might have from selling off players. It's impossible to operate this way.

A serious club would genuinely look to cash in on Garnacho and Bruno this summer, sell Rashford to anyone that will take him, wish Maguire good luck as he heads out the door without a new contract, and drive Dalot to the airport if Madrid wants him for 50m. Reshape the attack completely with actual quality players that don't struggle to dribble a ball or don't want to run, reinforce the midfield and defense with more young quality, and get some lightning quick fullbacks that will contribute in attack so that we aren't stuck playing our most promising young attacker there. You can't make a real change while you let players stick around that have seen 3+ managers come and go.
Click to expand...
This post is spot on. Couldn't be more in agreement.
 
Ollie Derbyshire said:
De Ligt has been decent, Martinez is having a very poor season though and needs to step it back up to nail down a starter position in a championship challenging team and Shaw hasn’t been fit for about 2 years which is a shame as I think he’d be perfect in that back 3.

We’ll have to agree to disagree on Mainoo, I don’t personally see him as a good fit next to Ugarte, he simply doesn’t have the engine to play that role.

I’d swap Garnacho and Diallo and see how they do, I think that’d suit them both much better, Bruno is on the decline and is as much a hindrance as a creative hub and neither Zirkzee or Hojlund have shown they can be the main goal scorer so far. I had high hopes for Hojlund but he’s not progressing fast enough and should be bench/rotation option for now.

New GK
Yoro De Ligt New LCB (Martinez?)
Garnacho Ugarte New CM Mazraoui
Diallo New 10 (Mainoo?)
New ST​
  1. Onana has been better but we should be looking to get a better keeper in, he’s made too many elementary errors and his passing isn’t that great.
  2. Martinez as I said is having a poor season, he might be able to turn it around, I hope so.
  3. We need an athletic CM to help out Ugarte.
  4. I’d try Mainoo as the 2nd 10, I think his quick feet and short passing would work well there.
  5. We 100% need a WC striker with Hojlund coming off the bench and being used against weaker teams.
  6. Could put Mazraoui as LCB and get a new quality LWB.
I fully agree a good/great coach should be able to get these lot playing better than they are now and more than the sum of their parts but to get us back challenging on all fronts we need to interest in some real quality.
Click to expand...
I see the point you’re making about Onana, Mainoo and Martinez. You may be right. But they’ve all had much better periods than the shape they are currently in

At least we have half a season to find out if they’re able to raise their level again under Amorim.
Then, in the summer, the key priorities will be clear for another busy transfer window
 
Valencia Shin Crosses said:
When we learn to stop getting so attached to players and sell them when it's clear they can't take us to the next level (eerily similar to the issue with past managers as well).

We simply never sell players when we should. If a player has a bad year, it's "give them time" no matter what. If they have another bad year, it's then "well this next season is it or he's done here". But then after the 3rd poor season the player has 0 value on the market and we can't even give him away at that point.

In a similar vein, if a player has a good season we sign them to a monstrous deal and say they are untouchable (why the feck would anyone in our squad be untouchable is beyond me). Because of these issues, it puts so much added pressure on to our recruitment as we are constantly having to patch holes at certain positions while other positions degrade and we do so without the reinforced buying power that other teams might have from selling off players. It's impossible to operate this way.

A serious club would genuinely look to cash in on Garnacho and Bruno this summer, sell Rashford to anyone that will take him, wish Maguire good luck as he heads out the door without a new contract, and drive Dalot to the airport if Madrid wants him for 50m. Reshape the attack completely with actual quality players that don't struggle to dribble a ball or don't want to run, reinforce the midfield and defense with more young quality, and get some lightning quick fullbacks that will contribute in attack so that we aren't stuck playing our most promising young attacker there. You can't make a real change while you let players stick around that have seen 3+ managers come and go.
Click to expand...
This is spot on. If it hasn't worked for the last 6/7 years, why are we persisting with Maguire, Rashford, Bruno etc? None of them have been good enough for a long time and they're probably sat on a fat contract. Just don't play them if they are. While they're around, these things will continue.
 
Ole'sgunnarwin said:
This is spot on. If it hasn't worked for the last 6/7 years, why are we persisting with Maguire, Rashford, Bruno etc? None of them have been good enough for a long time and they're probably sat on a fat contract. Just don't play them if they are. While they're around, these things will continue.
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Reshape the football player remuneration model.

Much lower base compensation and pay highest performance compensation (trophy/goal/clean sheet related bonuses). Natural selection will occur. The guys looking for their last big day will go elsewhere and the young and hungry players who believe in their ability and that of their team mates will be attracted. Once and for all, we need to repudiate Ed Woodward’s line about Utd being able to do things others can’t in transfer market.

Chelsea’s ruthless but transparent squad model is paying handsome dividends.
 
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