When is the club going to call out this corruption?

I've made peace with the red card.

Per the rules it just was. Apply context and a yellow is probably fair but it's borderline.

The handball was a handball. It's the stupid rules once again as now all a defender has to do is fall and have access to all four limbs whilst defending. Wouldn't be too difficult to practice. I never felt Saints were going to cut us open and truly test De Gea so as far as I'm concerned we were robbed of a game winning pen.
 
Revan said:
I missed the first 29 matches so haven’t seen the pen incident, but the red card was an obvious red card.

This place is reaching RAWK level of delusion.
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It's not RAWKish when there are multiple fans that see a narrative whether some form of conditioned bias or not

Where these yellows or reds



Or this.

M16Red said:

Reviewed and not a red.
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Pexbo said:
Why?

It’s not a heat of the moment thing. Twice now Marriner has singled out Casemiro and edited footage in a way to make his offences look as bad as possible. That’s not inconsistency, it’s too calculated.
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Whtly would he manipulate that?
 
Amir said:
Whtly would he manipulate that?
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I don't know - you tell us? He chose to clip a millisecond of the incident which showed the tackle in the worst light possible. He could have picked a clip from the other angle that looked totally different. Exactly the same with the collar incident. Refs should be shown the full incident or not at all.
 
Rusholme Ruffian said:
I don't know - you tell us? He chose to clip a millisecond of the incident which showed the tackle in the worst light possible. He could have picked a clip from the other angle that looked totally different. Exactly the same with the collar incident. Refs should be shown the full incident or not at all.
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They 100 percent should be shown multiple angles and different speeds if they are to be called to review the incident at the screen. There’s no reason not to. If you’re going to stop the game and trot off to the side Atleast look at everything to try and come to the right decision.
 
Pexbo said:
Why?

It’s not a heat of the moment thing. Twice now Marriner has singled out Casemiro and edited footage in a way to make his offences look as bad as possible. That’s not inconsistency, it’s too calculated.
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I keep reading this but surely this is wrong.

Marriner was the ref for the first Casemiro sending off, not the VAR guy.

That first time, someone edited the footage for him.
 
Mmm-Qatarian said:
There's no conspiracy against us. Chelsea were fecked over yesterday with a red card that should've been given and wasn't. Wolves have just been fecked over today with a penalty (and red card?) that should've been given and wasn't.

It's ineptitude, not corruption.
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It is. All clubs get fecked over by a terrible referee decision at some point. Are the refs against every club now? I find it baffling that there's always fans in every club who bring this kind of crap.

Anthony Taylor is a terrible referee and the standards in the PL have been awful for a very long time. Nothing new here
 
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There is a false dichotomy being created in the thread that the the ref decisions can go against us either due to corruption or due to incompetence. And since corruption seems improbable, then all the people who are calling out biased refereeing are behaving like RAWK.

The truth is that there are a lot of reasons between corruption and incompetence that can explain why we are getting the wrong end of the decisions.

Biased actions against us in a match can emanate from multiple factors. One of them being our ex-players like Gary Neville or ex-pool players such as Carragher/ Souness who hurt us by going over the top with any foul/ 50-50 incident. The same is then discussed in the studio rooms and gets repeated and reinforced as a narrative.

Another is our rival coaches like Pep & Klopp singling us out as beneficiaries of poor decisions while their own teams have benefited much more. Its no coincidence that we are not getting any decision in our favour post the City offside goal. Same was the case when Klopp objected to the penalties we were getting under Ole.

Additionally, when the same culprits such as Taylor & Marriner keep on giving questionable calls against us match after match, it is valid to ask what is their motivation and why are the stats so skewed when they are refereeing our games vs others.
It is ok for players & Managers to focus on their controllables and try and improve to avoid such results in future. As fans, we need to create noise when we see a regular pattern of injustice and propose an alternate narrative to the one that is prevalent in the media.
 
I don't think there's any corruption or bias against us. It's just general incompetence in professional refereeing and even more obvious to me the stunning inconsistency in when VAR decides to get involved and how they then reach their decisions.

All teams are suffering from this, some incidents get more coverage because of the team/individual involved and some people feel that their team is being unfairly targeted more than others because obviously they pay more attention to what happens to their own team. Until there is real accountability for poor decision-making from referees, nothing will improve. At the very least we should have some kind of post-match report explaining why contentious decisions were made and discussions between the ref and VAR should be available for everybody to hear during the game.
 
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That_Bloke said:
It is. All club get fecked over by a terrible referee decision at some point. Are the refs against every club now? I find it baffling that there's always fans in every club that bring this kind of crap.

Anthony Taylor is a terrible referee and the standards in the PL have been awful for a very long time. Nothing new here
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Has every team won 1 in 9 games that he has officiated for them then? Someone should really look into that.
 
Rusholme Ruffian said:
Has every team won 1 in 9 games that he has officiated for them then? Someone should really look into that.
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He's crap and should've been booted out of the PL a long time ago and he's not the only one. There's no need to look further than that.
 
That_Bloke said:
He's crap and should've been booted out of the PL a long time ago and he's not the only one. There's no need to look further than that.
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OK, here's another question for you. If a ref makes a wrong call leading to an undeserved goal for Leicester City do you think that decision gets more, less, or the same amount of coverage as one made in favour of United?
 
Drizzle said:
Well I think it's also a fear of having the ABU media crashing down on their heads if they give a 50/50 call to United. So I would say it's a form of bias, yes. Not corruption as such.
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Absolutely agree with this. Made the point better than I did.
 
VAR can be invaluable in the right hands. Unfortunately seems like the Premier league have decided to weaponise it to suit their agenda. The decisions being made each game are managing to create a fake table where some clubs are benefiting greatly and others continually get screwed. They are aided and abetted by a compliant media who are selective with their highlights and punditry. Still not seen the Garnacho incident on any highlights so it's brushed under the carpet as if it never happened. It's got to the point that when we score, you can't celebrate because you have to wait 5 mins till the VAR and pundits have gone through every scenario possible to disallow it. The only way I can see us overcoming this incompetence /unconscious bias/corruption call it what you will is to get our squad up to the strength that these decisions become less relevant.
 
Cas18 said:
VAR can be invaluable in the right hands. Unfortunately seems like the Premier league have decided to weaponise it to suit their agenda. The decisions being made each game are managing to create a fake table where some clubs are benefiting greatly and others continually get screwed. They are aided and abetted by a compliant media who are selective with their highlights and punditry. Still not seen the Garnacho incident on any highlights so it's brushed under the carpet as if it never happened. It's got to the point that when we score, you can't celebrate because you have to wait 5 mins till the VAR and pundits have gone through every scenario possible to disallow it. The only way I can see us overcoming this incompetence /unconscious bias/corruption call it what you will is to get our squad up to the strength that these decisions become less relevant.
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I was completely in favour of VAR when it came in but am now of the opinion that it's got to go - or it needs some radical rethinking. It's making the refereeing worse because they can bottle out of making a decision because they know that VAR (if it's being used correctly) will pick it up. The problem is that VAR is still being used totally subjectively, so we're now in a position where the on-field refereeing is worse, the use of VAR confusing and inconsistent, and the joy of celebrating a goal tempered by the wait to find out whether it is going to be chalked off because a line that a human has placed on a still frame seems to show that someone is 1 cm offside. It's shit.
 
NotoriousISSY said:
I've made peace with the red card.

Per the rules it just was. Apply context and a yellow is probably fair but it's borderline.
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It’s funny, because it’s exactly this that makes me even more mad about the red card and not making peace with it.

It’s the very definition of a call that could go either way. And it’s the very definition of not being a clear and obvious mistake regardless of whether the ref on the pitch gave a yellow or a red, yet we get a referee who wasn’t happy enough with sending Casemiro off for something that was later showed to be misleading footage, but decided to do it himself from the VAR room and intentionally abuse his ability as VAR to show the referee intentionally misleading footage for an incident where the yellow card that was shown clearly wasn’t a clear and obvious error.

And if Marriner can do this with impunity, without being reminded of the clear and obvious bar that they’ve been banging on about all season (which we’ve been told is the reason why we didn’t get penalties at Newcastle, Liverpool, Forest etc…), then who’s to say that we won’t get another ref next week who just decides again that the clear and obvious bar should get lowered next time our player does anything?

Considering that the frivolous appeal ban is gone, I really think we should challenge the red card on the basis of it being a breach of VAR protocol and thus wrongfully given.
 
RoyH1 said:
They need to mic up the refs and specially the VAR. Bring it out in the open and let the public know exactly what they are thinking
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This.

They shouldn’t be held on some pedestal where they’re given the benefit of the doubt for their performances when ones like yesterday are just downright incompetent. Whether it be corruption or competence they should have some accountability.
 
Just saying, I refuse to believe that it's just incompetency when we see week in week out these obvious mistakes and inconsistency from the referees. We are all seeing the same video/replay and I can't believe there were so many mistakes by the referees.

These are so called professional elite referees in the best league in the world. Many fans could make a better calls than them. Incompetency? I will leave it at that.
 
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You would think with just the amount of money bet on football that they would automatically have to make their conversations in the decision making available to the public. It works fine in rugby and their refusal to do this just adds to the whole feeling of bias and unaccountability. Sky are currently covering Marriners back in that farce they call ref watch by saying the foul on Felix wasn't a red and you can only have consistency on a given day. You couldn't make it up.
 
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Rusholme Ruffian said:
OK, here's another question for you. If a ref makes a wrong call leading to an undeserved goal for Leicester City do you think that decision gets more, less, or the same amount of coverage as one made in favour of United?
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You're clutching at straws.

I understand your frustration and for what it's worth, I do think that you were robbed of a penalty (the handball one). However and I'm sorry disappoint you, there's no conspiracy against your club, nor any club for that matter. PL refereeing is just shit and it's up to the FA to make something about it. That's it.
 
Dermot Gallagher on Sky Sports Ref Watch when asked to compare the Casemiro tackle to the tackle on Jao Felix v Leicester on Saturday, that was not even a yellow card. “Consistency is only possible one man in 90 minutes. It’s very very difficult for us if we were both referees to be as consistent as each other in different games because they throw up different challenges”
Does that suggest that they make it up as they go along?? I think so….
 
Cas18 said:
You would think with just the amount of money bet on football that they would automatically have to make their conversations in the decision making available to the public. It works fine in rugby and their refusal to do this just adds to the whole feeling of bias and unaccountability. Sky are currently covering Marriners back in that farce they call ref watch by saying the foul on Felix wasn't a red and you can only have consistency on a given day. You couldn't make it up.
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I've just seen this too. You can't expect consistency across different referees in different games? What?
 
Davmah said:
Dermot Gallagher on Sky Sports Ref Watch when asked to compare the Casemiro tackle to the tackle on Jao Felix v Leicester on Saturday, that was not even a yellow card. “Consistency is only possible one man in 90 minutes. It’s very very difficult for us if we were both referees to be as consistent as each other in different games because they throw up different challenges”
Does that suggest that they make it up as they go along?? I think so….
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Did he at all comment on the fact that it was the same referee that didn’t think the Leicester one was a yellow who then thought a yellow for Casemiro was a clear and obvious mistake? Didn’t think so.
 
There is no corruption. It's just incompetence. Like @NotoriousISSY, I can accept the red card. The penalty non-call is the one that's hard to stomach.
 
It's called confirmation bias.

When Liverpool, City, Arsenal, Spurs, Chelsea...down to Rochdale fans make the exact same claims (and they do, all the time), that should be a pretty clear indication.

And no, the idea of media (ABU media, that whole concept) pressure being a significant factor isn't much more sound than the pure tinfoil "corruption" one.
 
Imagine thinking this thread was a good idea. Instead of making a hat, put the tin foil over your keyboard to prevent saying anything this stupid again.
 
cyberman said:
It’s very hard not to argue bias. There’s so many now that you can randomly pluck out of the hat that people forgot about.
The ball being out v West Ham is another. The Leeds player handling the ball that somehow made Weghorst offside, Casemiro getting sent off v Palace when the images shown had a Palace player doing the exact same thing, the Villa wall being 20 yards back coupled with the free kick being pushed 10 yards further forward into a shooting position.
I understand 50/50 calls but we simply don’t get 50/50 calls, we don’t even get 70/30. Bar v City I can’t think of any calls we even got? Even then the ref judged it on letter of the law and not subjectivity.
Close call goes against us and people are argue why they can see it went that way. That’s ok if not evens out but it goes against us every single time now
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The ball being out against West Ham was very marginal, strange that VAR didn't review it though.
I missed the Leeds game so didn't see that particular incident
Casemiro vs Palace...I have seen them given, especially because everything looks worse when slowed-down on VAR
Casemiro vs Southampton...see above...I was right behind this in the Stretford End and several people immediately said 'he's in trouble if they VAR that'.

The real howler for me in the PL was the McTominay penalty vs Palace. That's a stonewaller and I see no redeeming feature or excuse for not giving that. That cost us two points. The free-kick not being taken from the right position is on the players, they should be on at the referee constantly to make sure it's taken from where the foul happened.

In Europe, we've twice had what I feel are very soft penalties given against us, the Sociedad one in particular was a disgrace...but surely we're not suggesting Europe-wide corruption?

In terms of incidents that have gone in our favour, I would add the Eriksen foul in the build-up to the Arsenal goal that chalked-off their opener. I feel that was marginal and could not have been given on another day.

As I mentioned to another poster, I think referees are over-correcting for some sort of 'big club bias'. It seems to me that referees are so desperate not to be seen given a soft decision to United that they actually go too far the other way.

What I don't agree with is that there is any sort of conscious bias or deliberate corruption...it's just incompetence and human fallibility
 
That_Bloke said:
You're clutching at straws.

I understand your frustration and for what it's worth, I do think that you were robbed of a penalty (the handball one). However and I'm sorry disappoint you, there's no conspiracy against your club, nor any club for that matter. PL refereeing is just shit and it's up to the FA to make something about it. That's it.
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Hmm, you didn't answer my question though did you?
 
We've always had some decisions go against us. Some of the bad ones I can remember off the top of my head was the drogba offside. That was so blatant of an error it was laughable. Won them the fecking league too.

Who can forget the FA banning rooney for swearing too close to a mic/camera? You couldn't make it up.

But these things tend to even themselves out over the course of a season. I'm expecting us to get some dodgy penalties soon.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
And no, the idea of media (ABU media, that whole concept) pressure being a significant factor isn't much more sound than the pure tinfoil "corruption" one.
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You don't think that the knowledge that you might be on the end of a media shitstorm might have some kind of (even unconscious) influence when you have to make a judgement call on a 50/50 decision? Human nature says otherwise.
 
11101 said:
All VAR has done is highlight exactly how incompetent the referees are. The notion of corruption is childish at best but its definitely the case that referees look at the team they're officiating and think about the fallout from a decision; anything marginal given our way will be scrutinised but give it against us and youre golden, whereas it's the other way round for Liverpool.

Ever since that City goal every single marginal decision has gone against us and ETH needs to start talking about it.
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And...I think they go into games knowing that they won't hear the end of it if they give us anything like a soft decision, so that plays on their minds

I have been thinking more and more that modern technology must eventually lead to a better way of refereeing sporting events that take out any potential for cognitive bias or human error.

Imagine we had controversial events referred to a panel of three sat in a TV studio in some generic location. The on-pitch 'players' are replaced by a 3D sim, which means the panel do not have any idea about which player or team they are officiating on. They each have 60-seconds to make a decision, most votes is final.

All of that would take about two/three minutes but if each team had, say, one challenge per game, it would work fine (successful challenges mean the challenge is returned)
 
Davmah said:
Dermot Gallagher on Sky Sports Ref Watch when asked to compare the Casemiro tackle to the tackle on Jao Felix v Leicester on Saturday, that was not even a yellow card. “Consistency is only possible one man in 90 minutes. It’s very very difficult for us if we were both referees to be as consistent as each other in different games because they throw up different challenges”
Does that suggest that they make it up as they go along?? I think so….
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This has been clear for a very long time that this is what they do. They're just generally not very good, and in a position where if they admit fault then that affects their livelihood so they hold strong to whatever they do being right.
 
Rusholme Ruffian said:
You don't think that the knowledge that you might be on the end of a media shitstorm might have some kind of (even unconscious) influence when you have to make a judgement call on a 50/50 decision? Human nature says otherwise.
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I would need evidence, gathered over time, to agree that such a possible (not completely unlikely in itself, I will give you that) bias has actually been a significant factor - and/or that it has negatively impacted any particular football club more than others over time.

ETA You don't have to go far back in time to see actual evidence that VAR decisions on the whole benefited Manchester United over the course of a season, i.e. we gained points from VAR on the whole. So, what's the idea? Refs are (possibly unconsciously) scared to call in favour of us this season - but for some reason they weren't scared to do so last season, or the season before that?
 
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DevilRed said:
We've always had some decisions go against us. Some of the bad ones I can remember off the top of my head was the drogba offside. That was so blatant of an error it was laughable. Won them the fecking league too.

Who can forget the FA banning rooney for swearing too close to a mic/camera? You couldn't make it up.

But these things tend to even themselves out over the course of a season. I'm expecting us to get some dodgy penalties soon.
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We don't even get real penalties, we're never getting the dodgy ones.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
I would need evidence, gathered over time, to agree that such a possible (not completely unlikely in itself, I will give you that) bias has actually been a significant factor - and/or that it has negatively impacted any particular football club more than others over time.
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For instance - after such a fuss was made about the Rashford/Bruno 'offside' goal earlier in the season - you don't reckon it played on the refs minds whatsoever? You think they were just as likely to give us a 50/50 decision as they ever were in those next few games? Situations like that are far less likely to affect most - if not all - other teams, because none of them have such a large, vocal group of detractors in the media and amongst the general public.

Myths about United getting favourable treatment from refs has persisted for years - to the point where petty much every non-fan believes it, and therefore has a sense of 'so what' when we get screwed over. I remember about 15 years ago there was all this noise about how many penalties were given at Old Trafford, and how few opposing teams had received. This was repeated ad nauseum as though it was fact. And yet, when somebody actually looked at the stats they found that it wasn't the case at all - in fact in a couple of season teams that finished in the relegation spots had been given more than we had - in spite of the fact that we used to spend more time than any other team in the opposition box.

I think corruption is unlikely, but bias absolutely possible.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
I would need evidence, gathered over time, to agree that such a possible (not completely unlikely in itself, I will give you that) bias has actually been a significant factor - and/or that it has negatively impacted any particular football club more than others over time.

ETA You don't have to go far back in time to see actual evidence that VAR decisions on the whole benefited Manchester United over the course of a season, i.e. we gained points from VAR on the whole. So, what's the idea? Refs are (possibly unconsciously) scared to call in favour of us this season - but for some reason they weren't scared to do so last season, or the season before that?
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All you would need is data on the amount of attention,air time,column inches a contentious decision in Uniteds favour gets relative to other teams.
Rashfords offside involvement in the goal v City was talked about for a long long time after for example.
 
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