When is the club going to call out this corruption?

[Thom Merrilin]

We didn't appeal? Joke.

It was definitely a red, appealing wasn't going to do much was it? We would just look poor sports.

 

[lex talionis]

Corruption isn’t the right way to think about what’s happened with the butchery of refereeing standards.

On a close look it was a red card foul by Casemiro. Yellow/red…you can argue it either way. But red was not as outrageous as, say, the handball not called in the match v boro last season or the one before.

But the handball not called on the Southampton defender was insane, truly a stonewaller not called that’s in hall of fame territory with the boro handball also not called that led to a goal…which we were all told is always a handball if it led to a goal even if it was not deliberate, which it clearly was.

 

[Rusholme Ruffian]

Corruption isn’t the right way to think about what’s happened with the butchery of refereeing standards.

On a close look it was a red card foul by Casemiro. Yellow/red…you can argue it either way. But red was not as outrageous as, say, the handball not called in the match v boro last season or the one before.

But the handball not called on the Southampton defender was insane, truly a stonewaller not called that’s in hall of fame territory with the boro handball also not called that led to a goal…which we were all told is always a handball if it led to a goal even if it was not deliberate, which it clearly was.

Remember the 'handball' on Rashford against Everton soon after the Middlesbrough game - he broke through from practically the halfway line, the ball bounced of the defender ricocheted off his thigh and brushed his arm, all whilst about 25 yards out, he scored and VAR disallowed it. Something dodgy going on.

 

[Fitchett]

Remember the 'handball' on Rashford against Everton soon after the Middlesbrough game - he broke through from practically the halfway line, the ball bounced of the defender ricocheted off his thigh and brushed his arm, all whilst about 25 yards out, he scored and VAR disallowed it. Something dodgy going on.

I think we can all be sure that the Glazers aren't buying off any referees. Maybe a new owner will adopt the "Barcelona model"

 

[Rusholme Ruffian]

I think we can all be sure that the Glazers aren't buying off any referees. Maybe a new owner will adopt the "Barcelona model"

Here is what I think.

1. Referees must have grown up as football fans - you wouldn't get involved in the game otherwise
2. Referees are therefore a cross section of football fans - albeit ones who have to try to suppress their natural allegiances due to their job
3. Like it or not there is a huge majority of football fans who dislike United for various reasons - therefore it stands to reason that a majority of refs also dislike United
3. Referees are of an age demographic where they grew up with United winning everything
4. Referees are of an age demographic where they grew up hearing all kinds of stuff repeated like it was the gospel truth 'Fergie time', 'Nobody gets penalties at Old Trafford', 'Fergie bullies refs', etc etc
5. However much referees might try to be completely fair there is a large amount of subjectivity in almost every decision, and humans will display conscious or unconscious bias however hard they try to suppress it
6. There is much less fuss made about an incorrect decision against United than in our favour - therefore the pressure to be correct is less with opposing players/clubs

I think those things are pretty much inarguable, so it stands to reason that there is bias against us from lots of refs - conscious or unconscious.

Also, another poster made this excellent point: when VAR was first brought in we suddenly started winning loads of penalties - to the extent that Klopp whined about it to the media. Why was that? Because the subjectivity that can be influenced by conscious or unconscious bias was suddenly taken out of the equation. The whole reason for bringing in VAR was to ensure that correct decisions were being made. Is it any coincidence that when the element of subjectivity is brought back into VAR (i.e. only getting involved when they perceive that the ref has made 'a clear and obvious error') that we start getting bugger all again? Is it any coincidence that after the furore over the Bruno 'offside' goal we started getting even less? Was it any coincidence that when Fergie made his comment about Alan Wiley being unfit we got absolutely nothing from any refs for the next 2 years?

Anyone saying that it's all just incompetence, and can't possibly be anything to do with bias doesn't seem to understand that referees are human and as such prone to all kinds of influencing factors.

 

[Fitchett]

Here is what I think.

1. Referees must have grown up as football fans - you wouldn't get involved in the game otherwise
2. Referees are therefore a cross section of football fans - albeit ones who have to try to suppress their natural allegiances due to their job
3. Like it or not there is a huge majority of football fans who dislike United for various reasons - therefore it stands to reason that a majority of refs also dislike United
3. Referees are of an age demographic where they grew up with United winning everything
4. Referees are of an age demographic where they grew up hearing all kinds of stuff repeated like it was the gospel truth 'Fergie time', 'Nobody gets penalties at Old Trafford', 'Fergie bullies refs', etc etc
5. However much referees might try to be completely fair there is a large amount of subjectivity in almost every decision, and humans will display conscious or unconscious bias however hard they try to suppress it
6. There is much less fuss made about an incorrect decision against United than in our favour - therefore the pressure to be correct is less with opposing players/clubs

I think those things are pretty much inarguable, so it stands to reason that there is bias against us from lots of refs - conscious or unconscious.

Also, another poster made this excellent point: when VAR was first brought in we suddenly started winning loads of penalties - to the extent that Klopp whined about it to the media. Why was that? Because the subjectivity that can be influenced by conscious or unconscious bias was suddenly taken out of the equation. The whole reason for bringing in VAR was to ensure that correct decisions were being made. Is it any coincidence that when the element of subjectivity is brought back into VAR (i.e. only getting involved when they perceive that the ref has made 'a clear and obvious error') that we start getting bugger all again? Is it any coincidence that after the furore over the Bruno 'offside' goal we started getting even less? Was it any coincidence that when Fergie made his comment about Alan Wiley being unfit we got absolutely nothing from any refs for the next 2 years?

Anyone saying that it's all just incompetence, and can't possibly be anything to do with bias doesn't seem to understand that referees are human and as such prone to all kinds of influencing factors.

Excellent post.

 

[Fitchett]

Here is what I think.

1. Referees must have grown up as football fans - you wouldn't get involved in the game otherwise
2. Referees are therefore a cross section of football fans - albeit ones who have to try to suppress their natural allegiances due to their job
3. Like it or not there is a huge majority of football fans who dislike United for various reasons - therefore it stands to reason that a majority of refs also dislike United
3. Referees are of an age demographic where they grew up with United winning everything
4. Referees are of an age demographic where they grew up hearing all kinds of stuff repeated like it was the gospel truth 'Fergie time', 'Nobody gets penalties at Old Trafford', 'Fergie bullies refs', etc etc
5. However much referees might try to be completely fair there is a large amount of subjectivity in almost every decision, and humans will display conscious or unconscious bias however hard they try to suppress it
6. There is much less fuss made about an incorrect decision against United than in our favour - therefore the pressure to be correct is less with opposing players/clubs

I think those things are pretty much inarguable, so it stands to reason that there is bias against us from lots of refs - conscious or unconscious.

Also, another poster made this excellent point: when VAR was first brought in we suddenly started winning loads of penalties - to the extent that Klopp whined about it to the media. Why was that? Because the subjectivity that can be influenced by conscious or unconscious bias was suddenly taken out of the equation. The whole reason for bringing in VAR was to ensure that correct decisions were being made. Is it any coincidence that when the element of subjectivity is brought back into VAR (i.e. only getting involved when they perceive that the ref has made 'a clear and obvious error') that we start getting bugger all again? Is it any coincidence that after the furore over the Bruno 'offside' goal we started getting even less? Was it any coincidence that when Fergie made his comment about Alan Wiley being unfit we got absolutely nothing from any refs for the next 2 years?

Anyone saying that it's all just incompetence, and can't possibly be anything to do with bias doesn't seem to understand that referees are human and as such prone to all kinds of influencing factors.

It also depends on who our manager is. We were on the wrong end of a load of awful decisions for the first half season that Mourinho was here. In fact, there was even a thread on here "Referees and Mourinho". Then VAR came in and we were correctly awarded plenty of VAR intervened penalty kicks (plus the embarrassing one against Villa) when Solskjaer was manager. That all stopped when Herr Klopp complained. Decisions against us have escalated to new levels this season, as the ABU's know that we are a real force again, under Ten Hag. It's all desperation on their part, faced with the best United manager and team since Ferguson.

 

[Fully Fledged]

I would need evidence, gathered over time, to agree that such a possible (not completely unlikely in itself, I will give you that) bias has actually been a significant factor - and/or that it has negatively impacted any particular football club more than others over time.

ETA You don't have to go far back in time to see actual evidence that VAR decisions on the whole benefited Manchester United over the course of a season, i.e. we gained points from VAR on the whole. So, what's the idea? Refs are (possibly unconsciously) scared to call in favour of us this season - but for some reason they weren't scared to do so last season, or the season before that?

All you would need is data on the amount of attention,air time,column inches a contentious decision in Uniteds favour gets relative to other teams.
Rashfords offside involvement in the goal v City was talked about for a long long time after for example.

They actually came out and said they had changed the guidance given to refs because of the backlash that incident got.

 

[Fully Fledged]

Has any decision in the PL been more debated this season than the Bruno goal
? Would you say that the media outrage over that decision was proportional to the incorrectness of the decision? And wouldn’t you agree that decisions have largely gone against us starting immediately after that decision?

We’ve had less discussion on decisions where players actually got injured than when someone had the audacity to exploit a loophole in the law, which according to some (not me, in fairness) actually meant that the correct decision was made.

Regardless of what you think of the actual calls, it’s pretty obvious that if you make a debatable call for United then your name’s in the media, but if you wave away multiple legitimate shouts for United they’re glossed over and like last night, not even included in any highlights packages. To suggest that referees aren’t aware of this is wilful ignorance at best.

Forget it, his mind was made up before he came here. There's not point trying to convince him other wise.

 

[Heinzesight]

Here is what I think.

1. Referees must have grown up as football fans - you wouldn't get involved in the game otherwise
2. Referees are therefore a cross section of football fans - albeit ones who have to try to suppress their natural allegiances due to their job
3. Like it or not there is a huge majority of football fans who dislike United for various reasons - therefore it stands to reason that a majority of refs also dislike United
3. Referees are of an age demographic where they grew up with United winning everything
4. Referees are of an age demographic where they grew up hearing all kinds of stuff repeated like it was the gospel truth 'Fergie time', 'Nobody gets penalties at Old Trafford', 'Fergie bullies refs', etc etc
5. However much referees might try to be completely fair there is a large amount of subjectivity in almost every decision, and humans will display conscious or unconscious bias however hard they try to suppress it
6. There is much less fuss made about an incorrect decision against United than in our favour - therefore the pressure to be correct is less with opposing players/clubs

I think those things are pretty much inarguable, so it stands to reason that there is bias against us from lots of refs - conscious or unconscious.

Also, another poster made this excellent point: when VAR was first brought in we suddenly started winning loads of penalties - to the extent that Klopp whined about it to the media. Why was that? Because the subjectivity that can be influenced by conscious or unconscious bias was suddenly taken out of the equation. The whole reason for bringing in VAR was to ensure that correct decisions were being made. Is it any coincidence that when the element of subjectivity is brought back into VAR (i.e. only getting involved when they perceive that the ref has made 'a clear and obvious error') that we start getting bugger all again? Is it any coincidence that after the furore over the Bruno 'offside' goal we started getting even less? Was it any coincidence that when Fergie made his comment about Alan Wiley being unfit we got absolutely nothing from any refs for the next 2 years?

Anyone saying that it's all just incompetence, and can't possibly be anything to do with bias doesn't seem to understand that referees are human and as such prone to all kinds of influencing factors.

Anthony Taylor (an Altrincham fan) starting high school in South Manchester in 1990 just as we became decent again, surrounded by a majority of United fans, us winning the lot his whole time there, really backs up some of your thoughts.

 

[Abraxas]

Anthony Taylor (an Altrincham fan) starting high school in South Manchester in 1990 just as we became decent again, surrounded by a majority of United fans, us winning the lot his whole time there, really backs up some of your thoughts.

An Altrincham fan. Really? I'm not one to buy the whole conspiracy theory but the idea he only supports Altrincham is a laugh.

I'd like to know who he supports in addition...

 

[Fitchett]

An Altrincham fan. Really? I'm not one to buy the whole conspiracy theory but the idea he only supports Altrincham is a laugh.

I'd like to know who he supports in addition...

According to this article, just four Premier League referees admit to supporting a Premier League team. Really? So the rest of them support lower league teams? It should be mandatory for referees' preferences to be open and transparent.

https://www.planetsport.com/soccer/...ier-league-referees-support-man-utd-liverpool

 

[Josep Dowling]

Proper tin foil hat stuff going on imo. We have been on the back of some bad decisions this season. However if that Bruno goal against City was against us I would be fuming, like the majority of United fans. At the time I thought it would be ruled off and it wasn’t. Rashford has clearly interfered with play which made the City players stop. It was a decision that showed how stupid the current offside rules are which is why it was debated so much, and yes more so because it was at Old Trafford and United got the decision.

Against Southampton, Casemiro was rightly sent off. His foot was very high and he was out of control. It’s a red card these days. I do however have issue with that way VAR presented the foul as a still shot making it look far worse than it actually was. The Rashford foul is never a penalty, he had already lost control of the ball when he was clipped. The only decision I had issue with at the weekend was the potential handball in the box.

 

[Crimson King]

Proper tin foil hat stuff going on imo. We have been on the back of some bad decisions this season. However if that Bruno goal against City was against us I would be fuming, like the majority of United fans. At the time I thought it would be ruled off and it wasn’t. Rashford has clearly interfered with play which made the City players stop. It was a decision that showed how stupid the current offside rules are which is why it was debated so much, and yes more so because it was at Old Trafford and United got the decision.

Against Southampton, Casemiro was rightly sent off. His foot was very high and he was out of control. It’s a red card these days. I do however have issue with that way VAR presented the foul as a still shot making it look far worse than it actually was. The Rashford foul is never a penalty, he had already lost control of the ball when he was clipped. The only decision I had issue with at the weekend was the potential handball in the box.

Firstly, I disagree that his foot was high and out of control when he made the tackle. His foot bounces high after hitting the ball first, and could also then be construed as out of control. But that's why I don't think it was a red, it was an obvious accident. He didn't miss the ball, studs raised, and completely chop down the player. It wasn't serious foul play, it didn't deserve a 3/4 match ban.

Also, if the Casemiro tackle is a clear red in the eyes of the refs, then why wasn't Lavia sent off for pretty much the same tackle against Brentford last night? Probably because it is actually subjective whether that kind of tackle warrants a straight red or not, and Casemiro was unlucky that they decided to go down that road with him.

 

[RuudTom83]

The handball that wasn’t given at Southampton looks worst the more handballs are given in other games…

City on Tuesday night…if THAT is given then how could VAR get it so badly wrong last weekend.

VAR pixel fecking the life out of the game!

 

[Anustart89]

No matter which way you look at the incidents recently discussed, surely it cannot be argued that it's a bigger mistake (ie more clear and obvious) to not even give a yellow card or a foul for the tackles that we've seen over the past five days (Pereira v Chelsea, Burn v Wolves, Lavia v Brentford) than it was to give a yellow card for Casemiro's tackle? I really hope we seek clarification on this from the refereeing organisation because if Casemiro yellow = clear and obvious mistake, then surely Pereira, Burn and Lavia no yellow = ultra clear and obvious mistake.

 

[Lights Out]

Or the Roy Carroll non goal!? Shall I go on? Embarrassing thread

Erm, the Pedro Mendes/Roy Carroll non goal is the same incident!

The irony of somebody ‘doubling up’ something that went in United’s favour and calling this an embarrassing thread.