What's wrong with our youth academy?

[Erik the Red]

Pogba was one of our better performing players of the past 10 years.

We played most of our best football if not our very best in the dark years when he was in the side dictating play.

Don't try to change history. Pogba was one of the problems of the past ten years. He played one or two good games a season, couldn't be bothered running or tracking back most of the time, and continuously allowed his agent to say stupid things ahead of crucial matches. He was and still is a first class **** and the club is well rid of him.

We are a much better side without him and his over inflated ego. Eriksen on a free is a massive upgrade both on the pitch and in terms of mentality. This is a guy who nearly died, yet consistently produces 7/10 8/10 performances week in week out until he is gassed. These are the role models we need for the youngsters, and hopefully they follow his example and not that of Pogba.

 

[Oranges038]

Isn't that enough?

I suppose it is.

 

[Bojan Djordjic]

Jones was a great player, there isn't a single United fan that can deny that Jones looked like he was going to be one of the best CB England had ever produced if it weren't for his shocking injuries. Not really sure what your point is but it sounds like you haven't watched much of United pre recent years.

Jones was never a great player and I think this crystallises the point perfectly about the mythology that builds up around players that are not in a position to achieve their potential for one reason or another. Jones was a good youngster as he was built like a bull even at seventeen but at no point has there been any evidence which would back up Fergie's claims that he would be as good as Duncan Edwards or that he was on track to be "one of the best CB England had ever produced" as you have claimed. As I said he showed a good deal of promise playing for a much worse side than United but I don't think he looked any better than say Michael Dawson did as another teenage CB captaining Forest. It's not like we haven't seen enough blunders and errors of judgment to know that it wasn't necessarily just his physicality that was going to prevent him from becoming an elite player. It's always easy to make hyperbolic claims about players like him that will never have to live up to their hype because they have an excuse. Same for Ravel and you can unfortunately see it with some posters with regard to Mason Greenwood who in his absence has seen inflationary claims about his talent.

 

[Jericho]

Jones was a great player, there isn't a single United fan that can deny that Jones looked like he was going to be one of the best CB England had ever produced if it weren't for his shocking injuries. Not really sure what your point is but it sounds like you haven't watched much of United pre recent years.

Jones had a few good runs in the team but he was never a great player. He'd have a good game one week and could shit the bed the next.

 

[lex talionis]

The comparison to Duncan Edwards was of course ridiculous, but Phil Jones was an exceptional prospect when Ferguson brought him to OT. Even before his catastrophic knee injury right after he signed the contract extension, Jones had suffered a number of injuries of one sort or another, but when he had a run of games early in his OT career he was an outstanding defender and pretty tidy with the ball. No, not Rio Ferdinand tidy with the ball or no, not Nemanja Vidic as a shut down defender, but good enough on form when fit to walk into most PL sides today. A massive upgrade on both Maguire and Lindelof, but short of peak Varane and Martinez.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

Didn't we win the Youth Cup for the first time in ages last season?

Weird timing for this kind of thread.

 

[Bojan Djordjic]

Didn't we win the Youth Cup for the first time in ages last season?

Weird timing for this kind of thread.

Yeah, and anyway I'm not sure that a youth system should necessarily be judged on the trophies the underage grades win but more on the amount of professionals it develops and the amount of players it can develop for the senior team which I think its fair to say, United are unrivalled at over time.

 

[golden_blunder]

@Mr. MUJAC will set you straight

 

[crossy1686]

Jones was never a great player and I think this crystallises the point perfectly about the mythology that builds up around players that are not in a position to achieve their potential for one reason or another. Jones was a good youngster as he was built like a bull even at seventeen but at no point has there been any evidence which would back up Fergie's claims that he would be as good as Duncan Edwards or that he was on track to be "one of the best CB England had ever produced" as you have claimed. As I said he showed a good deal of promise playing for a much worse side than United but I don't think he looked any better than say Michael Dawson did as another teenage CB captaining Forest. It's not like we haven't seen enough blunders and errors of judgment to know that it wasn't necessarily just his physicality that was going to prevent him from becoming an elite player. It's always easy to make hyperbolic claims about players like him that will never have to live up to their hype because they have an excuse. Same for Ravel and you can unfortunately see it with some posters with regard to Mason Greenwood who in his absence has seen inflationary claims about his talent.

Phil Jones at 21 was a PL leading CB for Manchester United. Without his injuries I have no doubt he'd have gone on to be one of the greats. CB's don't usually get to that point in their careers until their late 20's.

 

[redIndianDevil]

I’m not sure why you keep using these examples. I’m an adult

It’s a menial chore that all of them had to do, no one was singled out or harmed. Do you think anyone was psychologically hurt by doing that task?

It’s hazing and bullying. Why is this menial chore something everyone has to go through. You don’t see normal schools kids doing menial chore to their seniors in schools. So why should football academies be any different?

My gripe with the point old players make is that just because they endured these things means that the current generation have to go through them too. These things doesn’t build character or in anyway help the kids in their careers. The current generation don’t have it easy or are spoilt, they also go through intense pressure, increased competition and a lot more media scrutiny without having to go through these silly things too.

 

[Dan_F]

It’s hazing and bullying. Why is this menial chore something everyone has to go through. You don’t see normal schools kids doing menial chore to their seniors in schools. So why should football academies be any different?

My gripe with the point old players make is that just because they endured these things means that the current generation have to go through them too. These things doesn’t build character or in anyway help the kids in their careers. The current generation don’t have it easy or are spoilt, they also go through intense pressure, increased competition and a lot more media scrutiny without having to go through these silly things too.

Kids in schools aren’t on the cusp of becoming millionaires, so it’s still a pointless comparison. Not to mention that realistically these players were at least 16 when this happened.

Again, we’re never going to agree on this, because I simply don’t believe it caused any distress to those who had to clean the boots.

 

[Member 117152]

Don't try to change history. Pogba was one of the problems of the past ten years. He played one or two good games a season, couldn't be bothered running or tracking back most of the time, and continuously allowed his agent to say stupid things ahead of crucial matches. He was and still is a first class **** and the club is well rid of him.

We are a much better side without him and his over inflated ego. Eriksen on a free is a massive upgrade both on the pitch and in terms of mentality. This is a guy who nearly died, yet consistently produces 7/10 8/10 performances week in week out until he is gassed. These are the role models we need for the youngsters, and hopefully they follow his example and not that of Pogba.

Pogba’s best season for us was on par or slightly above Eriksen. Yes he was a problem ‘not the biggest problem’ most of the time.

He also put in games were only Bruno / De Gea have put in those types of displays in 10 years for us.

Eriksen has been about on par with a fit Pogba and that’s exceptional for a free transfer. It was great business last summer.

 

[bosnian_red]

Don't try to change history. Pogba was one of the problems of the past ten years. He played one or two good games a season, couldn't be bothered running or tracking back most of the time, and continuously allowed his agent to say stupid things ahead of crucial matches. He was and still is a first class **** and the club is well rid of him.

We are a much better side without him and his over inflated ego. Eriksen on a free is a massive upgrade both on the pitch and in terms of mentality. This is a guy who nearly died, yet consistently produces 7/10 8/10 performances week in week out until he is gassed. These are the role models we need for the youngsters, and hopefully they follow his example and not that of Pogba.

Very important to note that the manager plays a massive part in how a player does, how balanced the team is, and giving the player a platform to succeed. Pogba should have done better, but at the same time, he was set up for failure from the start with constant garbage managers. Some players are more fragile to that than others. He could have been an all time great under the right manager, hell even under EtH. It is what it is.

 

[Malone_Post]

Another player who came through the academy doing something absolutely braindead today. Surely at this point we have to recognise there is an issue with the education these young players are getting in the academy. It cant surely just be a coincidence?

I mean how many players are we upto now who’s behaviour since coming through the academy has been problematic? Ravel, Januzaj, Pogba, Lingard, Williams, Greenwood, Garnacho. Are we just unlucky? Or is there a deeper issue? Do other clubs have as many problematic youth players?

 

[Hammondo]

Phil Jones at 21 was a PL leading CB for Manchester United. Without his injuries I have no doubt he'd have gone on to be one of the greats. CB's don't usually get to that point in their careers until their late 20's.

You are massively overrating him. He was a pretty good PL CB who could of gotten better.

 

[STYLOISRED]

Another player who came through the academy doing something absolutely braindead today. Surely at this point we have to recognise there is an issue with the education these young players are getting in the academy. It cant surely just be a coincidence?

I mean how many players are we upto now who’s behaviour since coming through the academy has been problematic? Ravel, Januzaj, Pogba, Lingard, Williams, Greenwood, Garnacho. Are we just unlucky? Or is there a deeper issue? Do other clubs have as many problematic youth players?

Ravel problem was beyond the club. His background was poor and the club tried and failed to help him. You only have to look at how Mohamed Ihatteran's career is going to know that even the best academies in the world can't help if your background holds you down.

Januzaj was a above average player who managed to shine in a poor season. This led to overhype and he just couldn't live up to the hype. He ended up having a decent career at a respectable level. I wouldn't say the club damaged him in any way.

I don't know why Pogba is on this list. His career may end with a wimper but lets not pretend he hasn't had one of the best careers any footballer can hope to have. One of the most marketable players on the planet in his prime and loved by every teammate he has played with.

Lingard another average player who managed to make a good career for himself. Sure his carefree attitude may have wronged many the wrong way and he would not be a man utd regular in the SAF days but again, I don't see any indication that he was a bad person or had any questionable character.

Williams is a player that likes the tough side of the game. There are numerous players like him in every single club. I don't even know what bad character you see in him.

Greenwood. Yea I agree with you on this one. The club could have done much better. Something tells me the special treatment once it was clear what kind of talent he was contributed to his behaviour.

Garnacho, If you are referring to his post, I don't know what to say because I do not understand the context of it. But based on what we have seen of Garnacho we can see that he is a very expressive and flamboyant young man (barely 20 lets not forget that)

 

[The-Mezzala]

Ravel problem was beyond the club. His background was poor and the club tried and failed to help him. You only have to look at how Mohamed Ihatteran's career is going to know that even the best academies in the world can't help if your background holds you down.

Januzaj was a above average player who managed to shine in a poor season. This led to overhype and he just couldn't live up to the hype. He ended up having a decent career at a respectable level. I wouldn't say the club damaged him in any way.

I don't know why Pogba is on this list. His career may end with a wimper but lets not pretend he hasn't had one of the best careers any footballer can hope to have. One of the most marketable players on the planet in his prime and loved by every teammate he has played with.

Lingard another average player who managed to make a good career for himself. Sure his carefree attitude may have wronged many the wrong way and he would not be a man utd regular in the SAF days but again, I don't see any indication that he was a bad person or had any questionable character.

Williams is a player that likes the tough side of the game. There are numerous players like him in every single club. I don't even know what bad character you see in him.

Greenwood. Yea I agree with you on this one. The club could have done much better. Something tells me the special treatment once it was clear what kind of talent he was contributed to his behaviour.

Garnacho, If you are referring to his post, I don't know what to say because I do not understand the context of it. But based on what we have seen of Garnacho we can see that he is a very expressive and flamboyant young man (barely 20 lets not forget that)

Great post. Agreed with all of that. I think Onanna has come out and said he didn’t take what Garanacho posted as offensive and said the matter should be closed. Think its been taken out of proportion by the media.

 

[limerickcitykid]

Ravel problem was beyond the club. His background was poor and the club tried and failed to help him.

The club denied Ravel access to his prescribed medications so one of his main problems was actually not beyond the club but in fact in the club’s hands and they did the exact opposite of trying to help him.

How are the club responsible for Greenwood assaulting/raping his girlfriend but not responsible for refusing to give a player access to his medical prescriptions?

 

[Mwooyo]

The club denied Ravel access to his prescribed medications so one of his main problems was actually not beyond the club but in fact in the club’s hands and they did the exact opposite of trying to help him.

How are the club responsible for Greenwood assaulting/raping his girlfriend but not responsible for refusing to give a player access to his medical prescriptions?

So the club denied Ravel access to his meds and then told other clubs he played for to do the same? This secret medication is the reason he turned out the way he did. Nothing about his attitude or professionalism. Come on, Ravel himself has admitted (several times) that he handled his time at manutd and other clubs badly. The club isn't the reason he turned out the way he did

 

[frostbite]

Are City and Liverpool better than us because they get more world-class players from their Academy?

I mean, is the difference between us and City due to their Academy?

 

[Tyrion]

Are City and Liverpool better than us because they get more world-class players from their Academy?

I think people criticise our academy too much. Rashford, McTominay, Greenwood, Garnacho. We've added more quality to the squad from the academy than our awful signings. Most top clubs only have a handful of academy players in their teams. 90s United and 2010s Barca are the exception, not the norm.

 

[frostbite]

I think people criticise our academy too much. Rashford, McTominay, Greenwood, Garnacho. We've added more quality to the squad from the academy than our awful signings. Most top clubs only have a handful of academy players in their teams. 90s United and 2010s Barca are the exception, not the norm.

Yeah, this is my opinion too. City bought their star players, they did not get them from their academy. No Academy, ours or someone else's, can consistently produce world-class players.

 

[cyril C]

Then how do you explain 3rd world countries producing some of the best footballers on the planet? Facilities don’t mean much in the grand scheme of things, it’s coaching, sacrifice and general hard work that generate ‘talent’.

You look at the class of 92 for example, it wasn’t a fluke, our youth scouts scoured the country (at fergies request) for the best young players in there age groups and brought them to United at a young age where they could receive the best coaching and work on their mindset.

The rules changed some years ago, now you’re not allowed to have youth players that are outside your catchment area (90 minutes travelling distance to the ground), and now you’re not allowed to sign foreign players under the age of 16.

So with that being said, our pool of available talent is only what’s available in the immediate greater Manchester area for the most part, and if you want to get political, there’s less and less places for kids to play football or take part in football related activities after years of Tory fund cutting. So naturally, it’s more difficult these days for United to have a stacked academy like we did 30 years ago.

Adding to that is Chelsea, then City's way of recruitment, when they can afford hundred of Academy kids then loan them out. To do so we heard story of kid's parent being offered half a mil incentive in order to sign up a 13 years old prospect, which we are not going to pay.

Apparently our strategy is to head hunt 16-17 years old semi-finished products, like Pogba.

IMO most major clubs can only promote 1-2 Academy kids every season, out of which majority are not good enough. Smallish clubs tend to be luckier or better in terms of finding gems.

 

[STYLOISRED]

The club denied Ravel access to his prescribed medications so one of his main problems was actually not beyond the club but in fact in the club’s hands and they did the exact opposite of trying to help him.

How are the club responsible for Greenwood assaulting/raping his girlfriend but not responsible for refusing to give a player access to his medical prescriptions?

If I remember correctly, the meds fiasco was due to doping regulations at the time. Maybe the club couldn't have done better but that's more of a systematic issue across the league than the failure of the club.

 

[arthurka]

We got Glazered.

 

[limerickcitykid]

So the club denied Ravel access to his meds and then told other clubs he played for to do the same? This secret medication is the reason he turned out the way he did. Nothing about his attitude or professionalism. Come on, Ravel himself has admitted (several times) that he handled his time at manutd and other clubs badly. The club isn't the reason he turned out the way he did

There is nothing secret about medication for neurodevelopment disorders and it’s almost like not taking them will have a serious affect on someone’s attitude and behavioural issues.

The club’s inability to even attempt to provide a kid with access to their prescribed medication is absolutely one reason why they’ll turn out the way they do.

If medication has no affects on developmental disorders then millions of people wouldn’t be taking them every day.

If I remember correctly, the meds fiasco was due to doping regulations at the time. Maybe the club couldn't have done better but that's more of a systematic issue across the league than the failure of the club.

The club didn’t do anything at all. They didn’t even try to attempt to get him access to them.

The point is they could have done way more to assist someone with a developmental disorder and have to take some responsibility there. The same can’t be said for blaming a football club on a rapist.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

There is nothing secret about medication for neurodevelopment disorders and it’s almost like not taking them will have a serious affect on someone’s attitude and behavioural issues.

The club’s inability to even attempt to provide a kid with access to their prescribed medication is absolutely one reason why they’ll turn out the way they do.

If medication has no affects on developmental disorders then millions of people wouldn’t be taking them every day.


The club didn’t do anything at all. They didn’t even try to attempt to get him access to them.

The point is they could have done way more to assist someone with a developmental disorder and have to take some responsibility there. The same can’t be said for blaming a football club on a rapist.

What are you accusing the club of her, exactly? This is news to me but you're being quite vague.

They refused to allow him to take medications he had been prescribed by his doctor? Or didn't do enough to try to get him access to medicines he had been prescribed? These are two very different things and the first scenario sound borderline illegal?

On a side note, these meds (I/m guessing Ritalin, for ADHD?) don't have any long term effect on neurodevelopmental disorders. They can only fix issues in the here and now, while they're being taken. Assuming he started taking them after moving on from United, you would have seen his career get immediately back on track if the lack of these meds was an important reason for him not thriving while he was at United.

 

[Mwooyo]

There is nothing secret about medication for neurodevelopment disorders and it’s almost like not taking them will have a serious affect on someone’s attitude and behavioural issues.

The club’s inability to even attempt to provide a kid with access to their prescribed medication is absolutely one reason why they’ll turn out the way they do.

If medication has no affects on developmental disorders then millions of people wouldn’t be taking them every day.


The club didn’t do anything at all. They didn’t even try to attempt to get him access to them.

The point is they could have done way more to assist someone with a developmental disorder and have to take some responsibility there. The same can’t be said for blaming a football club on a rapist.

You still dont get it. Every club cant deny Ravel his meds...ravel himself fails to buy his own meds, but somehow the club is at fault. You are looking for blame that doesn't exist. Ravel himself has on several occasions voluntarily admitted that he didnt do his best at the club and other clubs too. You are choosing to ignore all this other evidence... including his own explanations, and you are choosing to blame the club for his failure. That is what is crazy