In the Academy?
What's wrong with our youth academy?
- Thread starter devilish
- Start date
The real problem is that most kids are entitled little brats these days, first time they get that shirt on they think they've made it, pandered to as if they are the next big thing
Should be make do a footballing apprenticeship like the old days, and do all the dirty work and jobs for the pros, clean the jacks, scrub and polish boots, sweep floors, wash the kits, cut the grass, walk the dogs, wash cars, paint the fences, fix the swimming pool, cook the dinners, sweep the yards, clear gutters etc etc. Before they even get a sniff of a jersey or a football.
Builds character and strength at the same time, once they appreciate the value of hard work you'll have less little gobshites coming through the ranks.
Should be make do a footballing apprenticeship like the old days, and do all the dirty work and jobs for the pros, clean the jacks, scrub and polish boots, sweep floors, wash the kits, cut the grass, walk the dogs, wash cars, paint the fences, fix the swimming pool, cook the dinners, sweep the yards, clear gutters etc etc. Before they even get a sniff of a jersey or a football.
Builds character and strength at the same time, once they appreciate the value of hard work you'll have less little gobshites coming through the ranks.
You mentioned the Busby Babes, from the 50s and the class of 92. That's 40 years apart.
We are not due another remarkable group from the academy for up to 10 years.
We are not due another remarkable group from the academy for up to 10 years.
How many foreign youth talent from the academy had succeeded with us?
I beg to differ on that. We've had some great talent in the past few years from Rashy to Mason right to Pogba, Ravel Morrison and Lingard. The problem is that for some strange reason most of them had a behavioural issue to succeed or maintain their form to the very top.
@Brightonian
I wasn’t very clear on that, I specifically meant top clubs like Utd or PSG etc. Clubs that just buy their way out of a problem. Obviously the youth system is vital for lower league clubs and even EPL clubs below the big 5 or so.
* I find that a weird comparison
** true that is good about it and probably more important than the issues I have with youth development at utd
*** I think utd tries to develop youth for the first team but percentage wise how many of the kids get to play for the first team in the end? I think the number is shockingly low. A player like Rasford comes around once in a blue moon. Utd saved just 80million on one player, they still need a dozen 50 to 80 million player investments to form a decent team.
I wonder why the youth set ups from big teams all over Europe create so little top talent. I think it is not normal, it is not efficient. It should be possible for youth development at rich and professional clubs like utd to create a team full of homegrown talent. They could do it in the past decades so why not now any longer?
I feel something is wrong, there simply is too much money in football and it is invested in fees and transfers while it should he invested in developing youth for your own first team imo
I wasn’t very clear on that, I specifically meant top clubs like Utd or PSG etc. Clubs that just buy their way out of a problem. Obviously the youth system is vital for lower league clubs and even EPL clubs below the big 5 or so.
* I find that a weird comparison
** true that is good about it and probably more important than the issues I have with youth development at utd
*** I think utd tries to develop youth for the first team but percentage wise how many of the kids get to play for the first team in the end? I think the number is shockingly low. A player like Rasford comes around once in a blue moon. Utd saved just 80million on one player, they still need a dozen 50 to 80 million player investments to form a decent team.
I wonder why the youth set ups from big teams all over Europe create so little top talent. I think it is not normal, it is not efficient. It should be possible for youth development at rich and professional clubs like utd to create a team full of homegrown talent. They could do it in the past decades so why not now any longer?
I feel something is wrong, there simply is too much money in football and it is invested in fees and transfers while it should he invested in developing youth for your own first team imo
I don't know what your point is.
This and close the thread.
What a weird theory!!
city are the ‘best’ academy in the UK at the moment and two of their ‘top’ youngsters have more than their fair share of problems. One of them is an England ‘star’ too
Stop trying to find problems with the club
If they literally had to polish the boots then that's bullying and abuse. Just because they took it lying down doesn't mean the current generation have to take that too. It's actually a positive thing that young academy kids are being well taken care of, they are kids after all.
It has nothing to do with the "kids these days". The likes of Vinicius Jr., Rodrygo, Neymar, Joao Felix, Musiala all seem to have thrived when give lucrative contracts when they were really young.
My point is that some players handle the fame and money better than some. This is true from the time of the class to 92 to now. There were younger players who got waylaid by the fame and fortune back in the 90s as well.
The likes of Keane and Neville's constant moaning about the kids these days is exactly like my father and grandfather talking down to me about how they had it more difficult. It's just glorifying the past. Every generation kids face difficulties of that generation and many come out on top and many lose it.
Last edited:
Is this your first time meeting devilish
Right now we have Rashford, McTominay, Garnacho, Greenwood, Elanga, Amad Diallo (Does he count as an academy talent?)... Am I missing any names?
We are arguably the most successful youth academy in the UK. How many graduates go on to play football at a very high level!
My point is that in my opinion the issue is not about talent but about attitude. If the likes of Greenwood, Lingard, Ravel M and Pogba shared Scholes/Beckham attitude then we would be comparing this lot to the class of 92 (especially since we would also have Rashy in the mix)
Foden's biggest problem is having a punchable face and a weird a hairline.
Plenty of speculations and most here can't know what's happening behind the closed doors. All we know for a fact is that we have indeed lost couple of very talented lads due to their attitude and off the field stuff - the most striking example of Greenwood is also well documented now, we are aware that the club tried to protect him from consequences of his actions a few times and we know he was treated like a star since his childhood. Now is it only a problem of our academy? I don't know enough to answer, most probably no. Would Greenwood still play for us and not end up a fecking aggressive idiot if the coaching stuff was more strict and gave him less of a leeway? Impossible to answer. Do I think there will be a small shift in how the young players are treated following a few spectacular failures, again Greenwood the most recent and the most high-level one? Sort of, yes.
It's not specifically to do with United, but being a kid who is a star at a club like United will invariably give them a sense of entitlement that can go badly if not stamped out properly. The attention on them is much bigger, the fame much bigger, so it's not a huge surprise that there are probably more "bad eggs" with behavior than before. There is also definitely a case that certain behavior back in the day just wasn't seen because no social media, or was covered up by clubs, or something like assault/sexual assault which often times just wasn't reported in the first place and generally was looked at very differently than now. So you had plenty of "scumbags" who enjoyed great careers simply because they lived in a time where the crimes they likely committed never came to light, or never picked up traction (see everything that has came out with Giggs post retirement for example, is it unfair to assume things happened with him in the past that just never came to light?).
Nothing the club can actually do about it, nothing specifically to do with the club or any other club. Just the nature of the beast of being a teenager hailed by hundreds of millions as the next big thing, making more money than they know what to do with.
Nothing the club can actually do about it, nothing specifically to do with the club or any other club. Just the nature of the beast of being a teenager hailed by hundreds of millions as the next big thing, making more money than they know what to do with.
They produce a lot. Ajax, Barca, United, Athletic etc. produce so many professional footballers.
If you’re talking about exceptional absolute top top Ballon d’Or tier talent, then it’s definitely unrealistic to expect any academy to produce a Rashford every other year. There are so many factors and variables that come into play.
The % of all young footballers that become world class players is so small to start with. It’s not fair to expect a spesific academy to produce them constantly.
As the rest of the world, football has also become a product of globalisation. That means the competition for highly talented players is extremely hard. Of course we could field an academy graduate team even now, but it would not be a trophy-winning one.
As @Lebo listed, we could still have a PL quality squad with using only players who played in our academy:
Henderson
Varela - - - Keane - - - Evans - - - Williams
McTominay - - - Pogba
MG - - - - - - - Andreas - - - Garnacho
Rashford
Subs: Heaton, Johnstone, Zieler; Fosu-Mensah, Tuanzebe, McNair, Cathcart; Garner, Gomes, Rothwell, Norwood, Brownhill, Cleverley; McNeil, Januzaj, Lingard, Elanga, Chong, Harrison; King, Welbeck
Some not that well-known names but are playing for clubs that are (either 100% or likely) in the PL next year. Others played in PL last season.
I’d say that’s one heck of a list of players from one academy to be playing professionally at more or less the highest levels of football at the same time. And I probably missed quite a few.
I think realistically we might produce a top class player like Rashford, Morrison every 10 years.
A first team player or squad player every 3 years maybe.
The Class of 92 was a freak occurrence as it produced 3 world class players and 3 first team/ squad players
That sounds about right.
The most played academy player from either side is Marcus Rashford.
We have 3 academy players with over 1,000 minutes this season, Southampton have 1.
We have a further academy player with 700 minutes, Southampton have none.
We have another 3 academy players who have been given minutes sparingly. Southampton have 2.
Then we both have one old academy player who spent his career elsewhere before coming back in Heaton and Walcott.
That is why you play for United because you aren't better off at Southampton.
Not sure what gave it away that I was talking about him!
It doesn’t help being from a really shit family!!
I think it was because he's literally the only player they have come through their great academy.
Is he from a shit family?
Deeney is right on this one but how many of those players have made it here?
You have to show some sort of arrogance to play for a club like United and that’s a very blurry line to a young man. This is attitude. Whether it compounds to a problem at some point or not, its open to debate.
I don’t have a problem with it but to me it’s evident and I don’t have a problem with it as long as they can harness it to perform at their very best. Just saying the self entitlement it takes to believe you can make it at United is not a normal day to day attitude.
Plus, the fact we all know the players that are expected to make it here and they’re treated in ways not very similar to the ones that might find themselves on loan at Yeovil. If Garnacho ends up with an attitude issues down the line, one should definitely question whether his inexperience of life outside the bubble that he knows was the answer.
You could say that.
Very much rough around the edges, council estate types rather than full on shitbags but they certainly have a few ‘wrong ‘uns’ in their close quarters.
polishing boots is bullying and abuse?
I suggest you don’t bother digging out the stories of the actual bullying that took place!no. you’re wrong. everything is either already better after brexit, or it’s not been long enough yet to be better, but it eventually will be. there’s absolutely no downsides to it whatsoever. well, other than the overwhelming sense of importance and righteousness that it’s delivered, but most of us are well enough equipped to deal with that.
Really strange. OP has made up imaginary scenarios in his head and posting them as facts
That is abuse and bullying as well. Any decent parent would wage a war now if they knew their kids were being asked to polish boots of others at schools and academies.polishing boots is bullying and abuse?
Yes, but you're conveniently missing out the players Southampton have brought through in recent years via their academy: Walcott, Bale, Shaw, Chambers, Oxlade-Chamberlin, Lallana, JWP, Bridge, and then some others that aren't really noteworthy but play in the PL.
I know we can say the similar about United with players like McNeil, Keane, Evans etc still in the PL but it's much, much harder to make it at United and get a breakthrough because if you make a mistake, ala Ben Foster, you're out the door fast, you're also competing with players that cost north of £60m for a spot in the squad. There's less pressure to ease your way into a breakthrough role at a team like Southampton.
But they're not though are they? There was a lot of hazing back in the days, and Rio talks about it at length from his time at West Ham and then how they treated the youngsters with respect at United because he thought it wasn't nice when he was coming through, which he felt helped them integrate better and not see the first team as total arseholes.
But as a parent, if my lad was being asked to scrub the boots of the first team players before a match, I'd have no problem with it. There's nothing wrong with teaching discipline and giving kids responsibility, how else are they supposed to learn those skills?
Yeah it's a podcast with Ben Foster, remember seeing that a while back.
The youth system seems to be flowing well still getting plenty players who if don’t make it at United will go elsewhere and get good career. You are probably gauging your comments slightly looking back at class of 92 and busby babes etc. unfortunately football has majorly changed. We will prob never see 5-6 players come through the system again and all become corner stones of team instantly. If a player is needed they will prob spend and get quick fix rather than risk it.
Explains the hair anyway.
Really? It’s probably a bit outdated, but it’s no more than teaching a bit of respect and humility. If someone asked me to clean Beckham’s boots when I was a kid, I’d have been absolutely buzzing my tits off.
And we all blamed Ole for holding on to history.
Pogba was one of our better performing players of the past 10 years.
We played most of our best football if not our very best in the dark years when he was in the side dictating play.
Your father and grandfather are dead right - sound like the epitome of generation snowflake. Bullying my arse!
Fair comment that some handle the fame and money better than others but it's a growing problem due to the vast amounts of cash thrown at talented teenagers nowadays
Theres about 35 years difference betwen the Busby babes and the class of 92. Maybe in 2027 we will have another genrational pool of talent?
You’re conveniently claiming someone who made their debut 25 years ago as “recent”.
It doesn’t matter which way you slice it, United comes out above Southampton.
It is harder to make it at United and less pressure at Southampton and yet season after season United plays academy graduates more than Southampton.
We have more graduates in the PL, more graduates in the top 5 leagues, more graduates in the EFL, more graduate who are internationals
Anything you want to try come up with, United beat Southampton at it.
Ben Foster also isn’t even from our academy.
@top1whoisman
But when did it change? I remember the 60s where practically every team in the UK had developed out of their own players and they were good players. Why is it not possible anymore to replicate? Celtic 1967 is the most prime example of home development.
It still does not feel efficient to me. I don't think Utd should be content with producing 1 top tier talent every ten years, that for me is just not enough.
Are the players they bought much better than the players they develop since age 12? We don't know that for sure because those home grown players don't get minutes. We spend millions on players like Dalot or Lindelof but if the youth setup is professional then they should be able to produce these kind of players themselves imo. These guys are not world beaters but they are respectable professional players. I find it hard to believe that none of Utd's players in the last 10 years at that position didn't have enough talent to become first team players.
I think a major problems the lack of competitive football for young players. That is a problem they don't have in Germany or Spain and even in Holland and Belgium. Youth teams effectively play in the lower professional leagues.
It is clear that it is going the wrong way in England. Less then 30% of the players in the EPL is English which means 70% is bought from abroad. Are English people naturally less talented? Of course they're not as proven numerous times in the past decades. So many English players go to waste because they don't get chances to play, so they go play in the Championship disillusioned, forgotten and without perspective to play in the EPL.
Lots of English national youth teams won prestigious international tournaments the last decade, I do not find it logical that 80% of those players don't play football in the EPL.
But when did it change? I remember the 60s where practically every team in the UK had developed out of their own players and they were good players. Why is it not possible anymore to replicate? Celtic 1967 is the most prime example of home development.
It still does not feel efficient to me. I don't think Utd should be content with producing 1 top tier talent every ten years, that for me is just not enough.
Are the players they bought much better than the players they develop since age 12? We don't know that for sure because those home grown players don't get minutes. We spend millions on players like Dalot or Lindelof but if the youth setup is professional then they should be able to produce these kind of players themselves imo. These guys are not world beaters but they are respectable professional players. I find it hard to believe that none of Utd's players in the last 10 years at that position didn't have enough talent to become first team players.
I think a major problems the lack of competitive football for young players. That is a problem they don't have in Germany or Spain and even in Holland and Belgium. Youth teams effectively play in the lower professional leagues.
It is clear that it is going the wrong way in England. Less then 30% of the players in the EPL is English which means 70% is bought from abroad. Are English people naturally less talented? Of course they're not as proven numerous times in the past decades. So many English players go to waste because they don't get chances to play, so they go play in the Championship disillusioned, forgotten and without perspective to play in the EPL.
Lots of English national youth teams won prestigious international tournaments the last decade, I do not find it logical that 80% of those players don't play football in the EPL.