What's wrong with our youth academy?

wangyu said:
@top1whoisman

But when did it change? I remember the 60s where practically every team in the UK had developed out of their own players and they were good players. Why is it not possible anymore to replicate? Celtic 1967 is the most prime example of home development.

It still does not feel efficient to me. I don't think Utd should be content with producing 1 top tier talent every ten years, that for me is just not enough.
Are the players they bought much better than the players they develop since age 12? We don't know that for sure because those home grown players don't get minutes. We spend millions on players like Dalot or Lindelof but if the youth setup is professional then they should be able to produce these kind of players themselves imo. These guys are not world beaters but they are respectable professional players. I find it hard to believe that none of Utd's players in the last 10 years at that position didn't have enough talent to become first team players.

I think a major problems the lack of competitive football for young players. That is a problem they don't have in Germany or Spain and even in Holland and Belgium. Youth teams effectively play in the lower professional leagues.
It is clear that it is going the wrong way in England. Less then 30% of the players in the EPL is English which means 70% is bought from abroad. Are English people naturally less talented? Of course they're not as proven numerous times in the past decades. So many English players go to waste because they don't get chances to play, so they go play in the Championship disillusioned, forgotten and without perspective to play in the EPL.

Lots of English national youth teams won prestigious international tournaments the last decade, I do not find it logical that 80% of those players don't play football in the EPL.
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What changed? Transfer regulations. Going from 3 foreigner rule to the easy going Non-EU restriction rule or PL homegrown quota is earth and heaven different. Even under the 3 foreigner rule, golden generation/ class of phenoms is scarce among clubs.

You're taking too big a bite when you're talking compare nowadays to too far distant eras.
 
ti vu said:
What changed? Transfer regulations. Going from 3 foreigner rule to the easy going Non-EU restriction rule or PL homegrown quota is earth and heaven different.
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Yep. Makes sense
 
We have some really bright talents coming through the club now, all of which look as though they have a good head on their shoulders - Mainoo, Hannibal, Iqbal, Laird, A Fernandez all look like certified first team squad in the next couple of season.
 
TsuWave said:
There's no "attitude" problem. You're looking for patterns and there isn't one to be found

Pogba is beloved by peers and all his managers except Mourinho. It just didn't work at United.

Lingard was a decent squad player and servant to the club. People just didn't like his personality.
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totally agree with this Lingardhas a great attitude on the pitch and in training. Just does some weird stuff on social media.
 
top1whoisman said:
They produce a lot. Ajax, Barca, United, Athletic etc. produce so many professional footballers.

If you’re talking about exceptional absolute top top Ballon d’Or tier talent, then it’s definitely unrealistic to expect any academy to produce a Rashford every other year. There are so many factors and variables that come into play.

The % of all young footballers that become world class players is so small to start with. It’s not fair to expect a spesific academy to produce them constantly.

As the rest of the world, football has also become a product of globalisation. That means the competition for highly talented players is extremely hard. Of course we could field an academy graduate team even now, but it would not be a trophy-winning one.

As @Lebo listed, we could still have a PL quality squad with using only players who played in our academy:

Henderson

Varela - - - Keane - - - Evans - - - Williams

McTominay - - - Pogba

MG - - - - - - - Andreas - - - Garnacho

Rashford

Subs: Heaton, Johnstone, Zieler; Fosu-Mensah, Tuanzebe, McNair, Cathcart; Garner, Gomes, Rothwell, Norwood, Brownhill, Cleverley; McNeil, Januzaj, Lingard, Elanga, Chong, Harrison; King, Welbeck​

Some not that well-known names but are playing for clubs that are (either 100% or likely) in the PL next year. Others played in PL last season.

I’d say that’s one heck of a list of players from one academy to be playing professionally at more or less the highest levels of football at the same time. And I probably missed quite a few.
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Interesting to see so many. Below are the players City could claim playing in the first teams of top flight clubs (including PL/Championship/La Liga/Bundesliga) Its interesting how many of these have come through since their investment in the last 5 years:

Kasper Schmeicel. Angus gunn. Gavin bazunu. Kieran Trippier. Rico Lewis. Eric Garcia. Romeo Lavia. Ihenacho. Phil Foden. Jadon Sancho. Tosin Adarabioyo. David Brooks. Taylor Harwood Bellis. Boyata. Aro Muric. Cole Palmer. Angelino. Brahim Diaz. Juan Larios. Joe Hodge. Taylor Richards . James Mcatee. Tommy Doyle
Lukas Nmecha. Felix Nmecha. Tyrese Campbell. Jose Lozo. Liam Delap. Karim Rekic. Sam Edozie. Dele Bashiru
 
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People talking about "kids these days" and "attitude" I mention two Belfast players you may be aware of, George Best and Norman Whiteside, would they get away with their behaviour as players now?
As to the cost - value of an academy, I was watching Sheffield United qualify for the semi final of the FA Cup a couple of weeks ago, and after the draw learnt that Doyle and McAfee couldn't play in the semi-final as they are City players (I admit that I have no idea about the fees or wages of players on loan, but remember that Beckham went on loan from United for a season or two), this got me thinking (and googling about loan players), and Haywood Bellis at Burnley is on loan from City, Southampton spent £40 million on City academy players with reports of sell on or buy back conditions, and I think a percentage of the money Dortmund got for Sancho went to them.
If a players career is say 12 years at first team level, then if your academy is producing one first team player each season then you will have an entire team of academy graduates, if you getb2 a year them your entire squad will be home grown, so out of an 18 player under 18 squad, 16 won't be of a quality to play at the very top of the game, but still good enough to be quality players in the mid-lower level premier league teams, or in other levels of the professional game, and the fees from selling these players can cover the cost of the academy.
 
The biggest problem in academies nearly every where and not just at United is managers don’t have 5/6 year to make success. They have 1 2 3 at a push. They want ready made players not kids.
Ten Haag has his Ajax principles so I would hope if our academy players are good enough and have right attitudes. They will play
 
We have a fantastic record with our academy and rightly should be proud of it. I just wonder if we're resting on our laurels though. The Glazer era has brought about deterioration in most, if not all, aspects of this club and I feel we're lagging behind City and Chelsea when it comes to producing and nurturing quality youth. It's not a great barometer but, if you look through England youth squads, very few of the players are at United. We still provide a far better pathway (despite the odd dodgy loan) but the raw talent doesn't quite seem to be as good. Maybe I'm wrong. Some things I hear from those that reportedly are close to the academy (Beaucoup is it?) don't sound impressive. I'm not convinced by Nick Cox through interviews I've seen with him.

I just sense we're very good but a step away from excellent. I want better when it comes to the academy as I think it's the heart and soul of our club.
 
Victorian values said:
People talking about "kids these days" and "attitude" I mention two Belfast players you may be aware of, George Best and Norman Whiteside, would they get away with their behaviour as players now?
As to the cost - value of an academy, I was watching Sheffield United qualify for the semi final of the FA Cup a couple of weeks ago, and after the draw learnt that Doyle and McAfee couldn't play in the semi-final as they are City players (I admit that I have no idea about the fees or wages of players on loan, but remember that Beckham went on loan from United for a season or two), this got me thinking (and googling about loan players), and Haywood Bellis at Burnley is on loan from City, Southampton spent £40 million on City academy players with reports of sell on or buy back conditions, and I think a percentage of the money Dortmund got for Sancho went to them.
If a players career is say 12 years at first team level, then if your academy is producing one first team player each season then you will have an entire team of academy graduates, if you getb2 a year them your entire squad will be home grown, so out of an 18 player under 18 squad, 16 won't be of a quality to play at the very top of the game, but still good enough to be quality players in the mid-lower level premier league teams, or in other levels of the professional game, and the fees from selling these players can cover the cost of the academy.
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It's become a bit of a myth this.

It was a very short term thing. Literally about 10 games. If that.

Edit: 5 appearances for Preston
 
crossy1686 said:
But they're not though are they? There was a lot of hazing back in the days, and Rio talks about it at length from his time at West Ham and then how they treated the youngsters with respect at United because he thought it wasn't nice when he was coming through, which he felt helped them integrate better and not see the first team as total arseholes.

But as a parent, if my lad was being asked to scrub the boots of the first team players before a match, I'd have no problem with it. There's nothing wrong with teaching discipline and giving kids responsibility, how else are they supposed to learn those skills?
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I can only feel sorry for your kid. There are plenty of ways to teach discipline and responsibility to kids without having to resort to these means.
 
Dan_F said:
Really? It’s probably a bit outdated, but it’s no more than teaching a bit of respect and humility. If someone asked me to clean Beckham’s boots when I was a kid, I’d have been absolutely buzzing my tits off.
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So you'd love cleaning the boots of people who are senior to you in your workplace?
 
Why is Ravel Morrison getting mentioned alongside the likes of Pogba and Rashford? He seemed to have some talent at underage but it never materialized into anything at senior level. Pretty common, there's a lot of guys like that. I think his "potential" was overrated.
 
Jericho said:
Why is Ravel Morrison getting mentioned alongside the likes of Pogba and Rashford? He seemed to have some talent at underage but it never materialized into anything at senior level. Pretty common, I think his "potential" was overrated.
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Fergie said he was the most talented youth player he ever had, but okay then...
 
redIndianDevil said:
So you'd love cleaning the boots of people who are senior to you in your workplace?
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I’m 34 and work in education. I don’t think my boss needs her shoes cleaned.

I’ve just told you, if I was in an academy and got asked to clean Beckham’s boots 20 years ago, I’d have loved it. I’m genuinely baffled as to how you can see it as bullying. Is it bullying that the kit man probably does that job now?
 
Bigsid said:
Interesting to see so many. Below are the players City could claim playing in the first teams of top flight clubs (including PL/Championship/La Liga/Bundesliga) Its interesting how many of these have come through since their investment in the last 5 years:

Kasper Schmeicel. Angus gunn. Gavin bazunu. Kieran Trippier. Rico Lewis. Eric Garcia. Romeo Lavia. Ihenacho. Phil Foden. Jadon Sancho. Tosin Adarabioyo. David Brooks. Taylor Harwood Bellis. Boyata. Aro Muric. Cole Palmer. Angelino. Brahim Diaz. Juan Larios. Joe Hodge. Taylor Richards . James Mcatee. Tommy Doyle
Lukas Nmecha. Felix Nmecha. Tyrese Campbell. Jose Lozo. Liam Delap. Karim Rekic. Sam Edozie. Dele Bashiru
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I stopped at Bazunu. He had played senior European club football before he joined City, how is he an academy graduate for them?
 
Dan_F said:
I’m 34 and work in education. I don’t think my boss needs her shoes cleaned.

I’ve just told you, if I was in an academy and got asked to clean Beckham’s boots 20 years ago, I’d have loved it. I’m genuinely baffled as to how you can see it as bullying. Is it bullying that the kit man probably does that job now?
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People like @redIndianDevil don't see the opportunity in being ASKED, not forced, to do something like that and get close to the first team. See how they interact, learn from the group mentality, maybe even get to ask questions to a senior player in an organic environment instead of a forced meeting. There's no shame in that of course, many people don't have the required mentality to see opportunities as they arise because they're always having an emotional reaction to everything.

As I said previously, someone has to do it and there's a sense of pride for the youngsters that get to work with a player like Bruno or Ronaldo, knowing that without them doing that job properly it will impact the player negatively during a game.
 
Oranges038 said:
The real problem is that most kids are entitled little brats these days, first time they get that shirt on they think they've made it, pandered to as if they are the next big thing

Should be make do a footballing apprenticeship like the old days, and do all the dirty work and jobs for the pros, clean the jacks, scrub and polish boots, sweep floors, wash the kits, cut the grass, walk the dogs, wash cars, paint the fences, fix the swimming pool, cook the dinners, sweep the yards, clear gutters etc etc. Before they even get a sniff of a jersey or a football.

Builds character and strength at the same time, once they appreciate the value of hard work you'll have less little gobshites coming through the ranks.
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Yeah, of course there was famously no gobshites within the class of 92 which definitely didn't produce two wife beaters, a degenerate gambler, someone who thinks its appropriate to chew on his adult daughter's toenails and worst of all Phil Neville. All salt of the earth nice lads back in those days.
 
crossy1686 said:
Fergie said he was the most talented youth player he ever had, but okay then...
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You're acting as if Fergie never lied or exaggerated. I also remember him being interviewed in an Irish newspaper years ago when Paul McShane was coming through and saying he was exhibiting a lot of the same promise as another irishman at the club and not to be surprised if he goes on to have a similar impact at United.
 
Bojan Djordjic said:
Yeah, of course there was famously no gobshites within the class of 92 which definitely didn't produce two wife beaters, a degenerate gambler, someone who thinks its appropriate to chew on his adult daughter's toenails and worst of all Phil Neville. All salt of the earth nice lads back in those days.
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My post was mostly a joke.

But, I genuinely do think that young players are pandered to like they are the next big thing from too young an age, it takes the edge off whatever drive they have to become the best, everything is basically handed to them on a plate, educated, everything paid for etc.. some players handle it better than most, but they are an absolute minority.

Bit of a reality check every now and again is all that's required.
 
Bojan Djordjic said:
You're acting as if Fergie never lied or exaggerated. I also remember him being interviewed in an Irish newspaper years ago when Paul McShane was coming through and saying he was exhibiting a lot of the same promise as another irishman at the club and not to be surprised if he goes on to have a similar impact at United.
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To be fair there's been plenty of people within the club that have said the same. G Nev, Rooney, Rio, Crerand, Fortune, Macheda etc.
 
Oranges038 said:
My post was mostly a joke.

But, I genuinely do think that young players are pandered to like they are the next big thing from too young an age, it takes the edge off whatever drive they have to become the best, everything is basically handed to them on a plate, educated, everything paid for etc.. some players handle it better than most, but they are an absolute minority.

Bit of a reality check every now and again is all that's required.
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I agree but I think it's important that we don't go back to a time when kids were dehumanised and abused because we've seen from stories at other clubs (and would probably be naive to think it didn't go on at United to some extent) how that has worked out. Lots of really promising players lost to football because they couldn't deal with the bullying, racism or worse that went on under the guise of tough love/banter.

I think a lot of it is probably down to the ludicrous money they have access to at that age so maybe its something where caps could be placed upon what youth can earn before signing professional terms. Would obviously have to be across jurisdictions to prevent the flight of talent.
 
Bojan Djordjic said:
You're acting as if Fergie never lied or exaggerated. I also remember him being interviewed in an Irish newspaper years ago when Paul McShane was coming through and saying he was exhibiting a lot of the same promise as another irishman at the club and not to be surprised if he goes on to have a similar impact at United.
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Fergie wasn’t the only one to say it though.
 
top1whoisman said:
To be fair there's been plenty of people within the club that have said the same. G Nev, Rooney, Rio, Crerand, Fortune, Macheda etc.
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I just think it becomes one of these weird things that just gets repeated until it enters the public conscience. A bit like the way Dennis Irwin was the go to answer to the most underrated player in the league which implies he wasn't really that underrated at all.

I think objectively he wasn't more talented than Ryan Giggs, Paul Scholes, Paul Pogba. If he was half as good as what people like to say he was he would have made it in spite of his poor decisions. Very aesthetic player but ultimately I think it was a massive case of style of over substance.
 
Bojan Djordjic said:
I just think it becomes one of these weird things that just gets repeated until it enters the public conscience. A bit like the way Dennis Irwin was the go to answer to the most underrated player in the league which implies he wasn't really that underrated at all.

I think objectively he wasn't more talented than Ryan Giggs, Paul Scholes, Paul Pogba. If he was half as good as what people like to say he was he would have made it in spite of his poor decisions. Very aesthetic player but ultimately I think it was a massive case of style of over substance.
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Disagree with this. The mentality and the desire is the final factor that turns a great talent into a great player. Many professional players have said that too.

There’s plenty of examples where a highly talented player fades away because they don’t have that drive or they become too invested in the life of a professional footballer instead of being a professional footballer.
 
crossy1686 said:
:lol: behave, I'm sure asking your kids to wash the dishes or clean their room is 'abuse' also?

You're also totally missing the point.
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It will be if you are asking your kids to wash the dishes and rooms of your neighbours to "teach" them discipline.

Your point is?
 
Dan_F said:
I’m 34 and work in education. I don’t think my boss needs her shoes cleaned.

I’ve just told you, if I was in an academy and got asked to clean Beckham’s boots 20 years ago, I’d have loved it. I’m genuinely baffled as to how you can see it as bullying. Is it bullying that the kit man probably does that job now?
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Lets say you are a junior teacher and joined a new school. What will you do if the headmaster asked you to clean the common bathroom just because you are junior teacher? Will you do it? Will it in anyway improve your skill as a teacher?

I don't think senior players needed their shoes cleaned, so why should academy kids get to do it.

My problem is the way these things are glorified by the older people, they act as if things like this are a rite of passage that everyone has to go through and that made them better disciplined. These things are hazing, bullying and abuse.
 
crossy1686 said:
People like @redIndianDevil don't see the opportunity in being ASKED, not forced, to do something like that and get close to the first team. See how they interact, learn from the group mentality, maybe even get to ask questions to a senior player in an organic environment instead of a forced meeting. There's no shame in that of course, many people don't have the required mentality to see opportunities as they arise because they're always having an emotional reaction to everything.

As I said previously, someone has to do it and there's a sense of pride for the youngsters that get to work with a player like Bruno or Ronaldo, knowing that without them doing that job properly it will impact the player negatively during a game.
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There are plenty of ways academy players can interact with senior players in a organic setting without having to do silly things like cleaning others' dirty boots. I'm pretty sure that academy players these days take part in training combined with the senior players to interact and learn from the seniors. That is how things should be.

The point these older players make is that they endured hazing, bullying and abuse when they were kids, so the kids of these generation has to go through them too. That is wrong in my books.
 
Dan_F said:
I’m 34 and work in education. I don’t think my boss needs her shoes cleaned.

I’ve just told you, if I was in an academy and got asked to clean Beckham’s boots 20 years ago, I’d have loved it. I’m genuinely baffled as to how you can see it as bullying. Is it bullying that the kit man probably does that job now?
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It's his job. Academy players job is to practise football not clean boots.
 
redIndianDevil said:
Lets say you are a junior teacher and joined a new school. What will you do if the headmaster asked you to clean the common bathroom just because you are junior teacher? Will you do it? Will it in anyway improve your skill as a teacher?

I don't think senior players needed their shoes cleaned, so why should academy kids get to do it.

My problem is the way these things are glorified by the older people, they act as if things like this are a rite of passage that everyone has to go through and that made them better disciplined. These things are hazing, bullying and abuse.
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I’m not sure why you keep using these examples. I’m an adult :lol:

It’s a menial chore that all of them had to do, no one was singled out or harmed. Do you think anyone was psychologically hurt by doing that task?
 
Bojan Djordjic said:
I agree but I think it's important that we don't go back to a time when kids were dehumanised and abused because we've seen from stories at other clubs (and would probably be naive to think it didn't go on at United to some extent) how that has worked out. Lots of really promising players lost to football because they couldn't deal with the bullying, racism or worse that went on under the guise of tough love/banter.

I think a lot of it is probably down to the ludicrous money they have access to at that age so maybe its something where caps could be placed upon what youth can earn before signing professional terms. Would obviously have to be across jurisdictions to prevent the flight of talent.
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Wouldn't be calling for the return of Barry Bennell or " the glove".

But there's other ways to do it, a lot are being put into paid education which keeps up even after they've left academies. That sort of thing should be tied in some way, maybe it is, you fail at school, you fail at football or vice versa. But, I've read that the school is still paid for if they are released in some cases.

I don't see the issue in them being around the first team squads, cleaning boots and sweeping dressing rooms etc. That awareness and experience of being around those guys, I think it should make you want to be in their shoes, do what they are doing, might make you work harder to try and get there.
 
Jericho said:
Do I need to remind you about what Fergie said about Jones? Ok then..
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Jones was a great player, there isn't a single United fan that can deny that Jones looked like he was going to be one of the best CB England had ever produced if it weren't for his shocking injuries. Not really sure what your point is but it sounds like you haven't watched much of United pre recent years.
 
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