What's wrong with our youth academy?

devilish

Juventus fan who used to support United
Joined
Sep 5, 2002
Messages
62,979
Manchester United's youth academy is the stuff of legends. The Busby babes and the class of 92 had been made their name in football not only in the UK but also globally. After SAF retired the academy is said to have been ignored a little. That coupled by Manchester City's unlimited wealth saw youth talent preferring the blue corner of Manchester. Hopefully new owners will ratify that.

What worries me though is not the lack of talent but the lack of attitude our cream of the crop seem to have. Whether it's Djordic, Macheda, Ravel Morrison, Paul Pogba, Jesse Lingard or the player that can't be named. Don't take me wrong we always had that one rotten apple. Keith Gillespie for example was the bad boy in the class of 92. However it was more of the exception rather then the norm.

The Academy had been a cornerstone of our club. It provided us with some priceless talent (Scholes, Giggs, Best, Beckham etc) but also good squad players as well. That allowed us to invest the money elsewhere. Which is why I believe that if there's an issue then it needs to be ratified.

So do you think that this concern is justified and if yes how do you think it should be tackled?

Disclaimer: I am not comparing Pogba or Lingard to the guy that can't be named. I am just saying that there seem to be an attitude problem among the top youth players.
 
There's no "attitude" problem. You're looking for patterns and there isn't one to be found

Pogba is beloved by peers and all his managers except Mourinho. It just didn't work at United.

Lingard was a decent squad player and servant to the club. People just didn't like his personality.
 
Brexit has also made it more difficult to attract overseas talent if I recall correctly?
 
devilish said:
Manchester United's youth academy is the stuff of legends. The Busby babes and the class of 92 had been made their name in football not only in the UK but also globally. After SAF retired the academy is said to have been ignored a little. That coupled by Manchester City's unlimited wealth saw youth talent preferring the blue corner of Manchester. Hopefully new owners will ratify that.

What worries me though is not the lack of talent but the lack of attitude our cream of the crop seem to have. Whether it's Djordic, Macheda, Ravel Morrison, Paul Pogba, Jesse Lingard or the player that can't be named. Don't take me wrong we always had that one rotten apple. Keith Gillespie for example was the bad boy in the class of 92. However it was more of the exception rather then the norm.

The Academy had been a cornerstone of our club. It provided us with some priceless talent (Scholes, Giggs, Best, Beckham etc) but also good squad players as well. That allowed us to invest the money elsewhere. Which is why I believe that if there's an issue then it needs to be ratified.

So do you think that this concern is justified and if yes how do you think it should be tackled?

Disclaimer: I am not comparing Pogba or Lingard to the guy that can't be named. I am just saying that there seem to be an attitude problem among the top youth players.
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There is no issue, you're reaching for straws here. What you just described applies to all clubs. Lingard wasn't even a problem and he literally won his childhood club an FA Cup at Wembley.
 
I think the change in managers hasn’t helped, the lack of continuity is bound to have an impact. With more consistency in the manager, I’d expect to see more from the youth team given a chance.

Someone like Mainoo now or even Iqbal, EtH has used them a lot in the squad (albeit not played much) and so must have a relationship with both so would give more chance of playing in future.

The game has also changed a lot, if you’re a manager now it’s a bigger risk playing a youth player than it is bringing in seasoned player, and there’s so much money riding on league position and poor run of form could see you out of a job.

That season Chelsea had a transfer ban saw them have to rely on a few younger players, I wonder how many of those would have ever seen the first team had they had the option of dipping into the transfer market.
 
Too much nepotism
 
marktan said:
Brexit has also made it more difficult to attract overseas talent if I recall correctly?
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United had always struggled to develop talent from outside the British Isles. So I don't think that is the issue.
 
TsuWave said:
There's no "attitude" problem. You're looking for patterns and there isn't one to be found

Pogba is beloved by peers and all his managers except Mourinho. It just didn't work at United.

Lingard was a decent squad player and servant to the club. People just didn't like his personality.
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Pogba was blessed with a mix of great genes and superb talent. He is a 6ft+ midfielder whose built like a tank, whose fast and whose incredibly technically gifted. The only player I can think of who had that entire package was Zinedine Zidane. Pogba is far from that. He dilly dally too much with the ball, he can't defend and his work rate is awful. Its one thing doing well with France or a star studded Juventus and its one thing being a protagonist in a team that is far from perfect.

Lingard is basically the poor man's Pogba. A player with the same attitude problems minus that exceptional talent.
 
devilish said:
Pogba was blessed with a mix of great genes and superb talent. He is a 6ft+ midfielder whose built like a tank, whose fast and whose incredibly technically gifted. The only player I can think of who had that entire package was Zinedine Zidane. Pogba is far from that. He dilly dally too much with the ball, he can't defend and his work rate is awful. Its one thing doing well with France or a star studded Juventus and its one thing being a protagonist in a team that is far from perfect.

Lingard is basically the poor man's Pogba. A player with the same attitude problems minus that exceptional talent.
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You keep talking about "attitude problems" without actually listing said attitude problems and/or examples of it.

Pogba had a career better than 90% of football players will ever have. Again, he's beloved by all his peers and managers, except Mourinho. United is/has been a shit show for a very long time, often a graveyard for talented players. Pogba is not the first nor he will be the last gifted/talented player to not succeed here - that doesn't mean an inherit attitude problem.

Same applies to Lingard. He was a good squad player. People just didn't like his personality. Also, a lot of the people on these forums are old/washed up folks that haven't adjusted to social media and react hysterically to anything.
 
I can't say that I've seen anything noticeable about the flaws of the academy.

Firstly, I think the problem around young players getting too much, too soon is a universal problem. It's very hard to keep their eye on the ball because you have immaturity, heaps of money, and probably loads of backslappers around them. A lot comes down to parents, upbringing, and then hopefully the right manager to steer them once they get into the first team. But there's only so much you can do, it's a football club not an army camp. Nothing is keeping the likes of Morrison grounded, he had to help himself.

The bigger issue is how do we produce more quality players for the first team? That's a far more interesting question because young players with a connection to the club is meaningful to many fans and saves the club tens of millions of pounds, particularly as fees get increasingly insane. In this respect we have a better record than most when you look at our first team squad and the youth we have brought through, but it's something we have to continue to develop. It's just a hard problem because we're looking for the fraction of a percent good enough for Man Utd.
 
The problem is the youth academy is redundant because utd has money to spare (apparently). I don't see how or why top clubs need a youth academy. If we train and develop youth for us then to transfer them to other EPL/championship clubs on the cheap because 90% don't make our first team then I don't see value in it.

I have shared my opinion about it in the past and got serious flack for it. I'm not going into debate about it, an opinion is an opinion.
 
Troy Deeney was on a podcast recently where he said that every loan player from Utd he’s played with has had a top attitude. That they don’t act all big headed but dig in and play for the team.
 
This is not much to do with our Academy but more about young players getting too much, too young

The Class of 92 had to clean the first team boots, live in shared digs etc - the life of an Academy player is very different nowadays
 
wangyu said:
The problem is the youth academy is redundant because utd has money to spare (apparently). I don't see how or why top clubs need a youth academy. If we train and develop youth for us then to transfer them to other EPL/championship clubs on the cheap because 90% don't make our first team then I don't see value in it.**

I have shared my opinion about it in the past and got serious flack for it. I'm not going into debate about it, an opinion is an opinion.*
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* :lol: You do know you're on a discussion forum, right?

Anyway I'm going to debate your opinion regardless.

Having local players and players who've come through your academy is important. They have a genuine connection to the club, its ethos and a large part of the fanbase. They know the meaning of derbies, our history, our legends, the triumphs and the tragedies and make sure the non-local players understand the value of those too. As they are a big part of why so many people support a club.

We also need players who have been trained at the academy simply based on rules. It's definitely easier and probably a lot less expensive to raise and develop our own than to be forced to spend millions on the top 16-18 year old prospects from other academies.

** In a bigger picture it's a testament to the work our academy staff do on daily basis to have a lot of our academy graduates playing professional football in the lower leagues. Not everything is about making money, it's also about supporting the local community and making sure those talented young people get the best possible upbringing and support to be able to make it in life - whether it is in football or in other areas. And we do it on par with the best academies in the world. That is probably a good argument to be able to present to parents and agents of potential youth signings too. Although according to your argument we wouldn't be signing any talented young players since we'd have no academy to play and raise them in.

I'm so privileged to have seen the likes of Hughes, Giggs, Butt, Beckham, Scholes, the Neville brothers, Brown, O'Shea, Fletcher, Evans, Rashford, McTominay, MG, Garnacho and many others graduate from our own youth setup and become part of our history. And before my time there were Sir Bobby, Best, Edwards, Foulkes, Viollet etc. And I can't wait to see who the next homegrown stars will be. Are you genuinely saying that those names give you no more joy than the average signing from another club?
 
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top1whoisman said:
* :lol: You do know you're on a discussion forum, right?

Anyway I'm going to debate your opinion regardless.

Having local players and players who've come through your academy is important. They have a genuine connection to the club, its ethos and a large part of the fanbase. They know the meaning of derbies, our history, our legends, the triumphs and the tragedies and make sure the non-local players understand the value of those too. As they are a big part of why so many people support a club.

We also need players who have been trained at the academy simply based on rules. It's definitely easier and probably a lot less expensive to raise and develop our own than to be forced to spend millions on the top 16-18 year old prospects from other academies.

** In a bigger picture it's a testament to the work our academy staff do on daily basis to have a lot of our academy graduates playing professional football in the lower leagues. Not everything is about making money, it's also about supporting the local community and making sure those talented young people get the best possible upbringing and support to be able to make it in life - whether it is football or in other areas. And we do it on par with the best academies in the world. That is probably a good argument to be able to present to parents and agents of potential youth signings too. Although according to your argument we wouldn't be signing any talented young players since we'd have no academy to play and raise them in.

I'm so privileged to have seen the likes of Hughes, Giggs, Butt, Beckham, Scholes, the Neville brothers, Brown, O'Shea, Fletcher, Evans, Rashford, McTominay, MG, Garnacho and many others graduate from our own academy and become part of our history. And I can't wait to see who the next homegrown stars will be. Are you genuinely saying that those names give you no more joy than the average signing from another club?
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Top post, genuinely can't believe the post you are replying to, is there anything better than seeing a homegrown player succeed?
 
The question should be why our academy players who seem to make the grade are all short and slight?
 
Baneofthegame said:
Top post, genuinely can't believe the post you are replying to, is there anything better than seeing a homegrown player succeed?
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To me I can't think of many things better than that in supporting this club. And I'm genuinely delighted for those players who go on to make a career for themselves elsewhere, as I'm sure many United fans are.
 
Rood said:
This is not much to do with our Academy but more about young players getting too much, too young

The Class of 92 had to clean the first team boots, live in shared digs etc - the life of an Academy player is very different nowadays
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No they don't. Just because kids these days don't tolerate bullies or abuses doesn't mean they are getting too much. Very few talented kids get to sign lucrative contracts these days.
 
top1whoisman said:
To me I can't think of many things better than that in supporting this club. And I'm genuinely delighted for those players who go on to make a career for themselves elsewhere, as I'm sure many United fans are.
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Absolutely right.
 
This is something I’ve pondered myself and I think there are a number of issues here.

First of all, I think it would be wrong to compare our current academy graduates to the Class of 92 - that was a less-than-once in a generation, lightning in a bottle type scenario for a variety of reasons, which we may never see again.

But I feel we should be expecting more quality players to be coming through the academy and becoming first team players. Currently, there’s only Rashford (and to a far lesser extent, McTominay).

One factor may be that there’s less opportunity for youth players to establish themselves, as a rich club like United will always have the option of bringing in ready-made first team players from abroad, or other Premier League clubs.

Another factor could be that too many of our youth players lack the hunger and drive to fulfil their potential, as they already feel like they’ve ‘made it’ after signing professional terms with United.

A third factor is that in terms of recruiting local talent around Manchester, City are simply a more attractive proposition for many young kids and their families now, unfortunately.
 
Eric_the_Red99 said:
This is something I’ve pondered myself and I think there are a number of issues here.

First of all, I think it would be wrong to compare our current academy graduates to the Class of 92 - that was a less-than-once in a generation, lightning in a bottle type scenario for a variety of reasons, which we may never see again.

But I feel we should be expecting more quality players to be coming through the academy and becoming first team players. Currently, there’s only Rashford (and to a far lesser extent, McTominay).

One factor may be that there’s less opportunity for youth players to establish themselves, as a rich club like United will always have the option of bringing in ready-made first team players from abroad, or other Premier League clubs.

Another factor could be that too many of our youth players lack the hunger and drive to fulfil their potential, as they already feel like they’ve ‘made it’ after signing professional terms with United.

A third factor is that in terms of recruiting local talent around Manchester, City are simply a more attractive proposition for many young kids and their families now, unfortunately.
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I agree that it's not very fruitful to compare to an anomaly. Comparing to our rivals: which big club in England have more than three (Garnacho was before his injury) playing regularly? I'd say having three play regular minutes plus Elanga, Mainoo etc. on the bench is not a bad amount to have in match day squad at any given time.
 
Rood said:
This is not much to do with our Academy but more about young players getting too much, too young

The Class of 92 had to clean the first team boots, live in shared digs etc - the life of an Academy player is very different nowadays
Click to expand...

this is 75% of the answer, the other being that our facilities are a tad outdated and other teams have invested heavily in academy infrastructure so it’s an easier sell.
 
FriedClams said:
this is 75% of the answer, the other being that our facilities are a tad outdated and other teams have invested heavily in academy infrastructure so it’s an easier sell.
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Then how do you explain 3rd world countries producing some of the best footballers on the planet? Facilities don’t mean much in the grand scheme of things, it’s coaching, sacrifice and general hard work that generate ‘talent’.

You look at the class of 92 for example, it wasn’t a fluke, our youth scouts scoured the country (at fergies request) for the best young players in there age groups and brought them to United at a young age where they could receive the best coaching and work on their mindset.

The rules changed some years ago, now you’re not allowed to have youth players that are outside your catchment area (90 minutes travelling distance to the ground), and now you’re not allowed to sign foreign players under the age of 16.

So with that being said, our pool of available talent is only what’s available in the immediate greater Manchester area for the most part, and if you want to get political, there’s less and less places for kids to play football or take part in football related activities after years of Tory fund cutting. So naturally, it’s more difficult these days for United to have a stacked academy like we did 30 years ago.
 
crossy1686 said:
Then how do you explain 3rd world countries producing some of the best footballers on the planet? Facilities don’t mean much in the grand scheme of things, it’s coaching, sacrifice and general hard work that generate ‘talent’.

You look at the class of 92 for example, it wasn’t a fluke, our youth scouts scoured the country (at fergies request) for the best young players in there age groups and brought them to United at a young age where they could receive the best coaching and work on their mindset.

The rules changed some years ago, now you’re not allowed to have youth players that are outside your catchment area (90 minutes travelling distance to the ground), and now you’re not allowed to sign foreign players under the age of 16.

So with that being said, our pool of available talent is only what’s available in the immediate greater Manchester area for the most part, and if you want to get political, there’s less and less places for kids to play football or take part in football related activities after years of Tory fund cutting. So naturally, it’s more difficult these days for United to have a stacked academy like we did 30 years ago.
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Catchment areas were scrapped years ago. We have players from all over England. And we can’t sign foreign players under 18 not 16.
 
devilish said:
Manchester United's youth academy is the stuff of legends. The Busby babes and the class of 92 had been made their name in football not only in the UK but also globally. After SAF retired the academy is said to have been ignored a little. That coupled by Manchester City's unlimited wealth saw youth talent preferring the blue corner of Manchester. Hopefully new owners will ratify that.

What worries me though is not the lack of talent but the lack of attitude our cream of the crop seem to have. Whether it's Djordic, Macheda, Ravel Morrison, Paul Pogba, Jesse Lingard or the player that can't be named. Don't take me wrong we always had that one rotten apple. Keith Gillespie for example was the bad boy in the class of 92. However it was more of the exception rather then the norm.

The Academy had been a cornerstone of our club. It provided us with some priceless talent (Scholes, Giggs, Best, Beckham etc) but also good squad players as well. That allowed us to invest the money elsewhere. Which is why I believe that if there's an issue then it needs to be ratified.

So do you think that this concern is justified and if yes how do you think it should be tackled?

Disclaimer: I am not comparing Pogba or Lingard to the guy that can't be named. I am just saying that there seem to be an attitude problem among the top youth players.
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Not sure I agree with the assessment that underlies your question. Pogba and Lingard are by any standard hugely successful academy products. Maybe you could have a discussion about their attitude, but I don't think you could say either has a clear-cut "attitude problem" that everyone would recognise.

Then there's the fact we have McTominay, Elanga, Garnacho and Rashford in the first team - as well as Henderson who isn't there because he's too good to be no more than a backup. Maybe Chelsea could claim academy output with a similar impact on the team, but no one else can. Or well maybe Arsenal I suppose, depending on how you consider Salibas and Martinellis provenance. Certainly not City.
 
limerickcitykid said:
Catchment areas were scrapped years ago. We have players from all over England. And we can’t sign foreign players under 18 not 16.
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Did they really? I didn’t know that, good to know. Still though, why play for United these days when our reserves rarely get a chance and end up leaving on a free at some point.

You’d be better off joining a Southampton or something, way more likely to get a breakthrough.
 
@top1whoisman

I don’t like to debate here because it always get toxic…very fast and usually at my expense because I have alternative opinions.
I understand your views and they are all valid and especially in the past there was merit for Utd’s first team but back in those days football clubs weren’t necessarily buying clubs. The youth setup then was important to form a squad. Now teams are formed on the basis of money. Utd is developing players for lower league teams not for their own benefit.
I have thought about this often and I can’t wrap my brain around it why this should continue.
This is of course how it works in Europe and it will not change but in my opinion I would form national football training centers independent from football clubs to train and develop players. Then from age 18 they would be available on the transfer market.

I don’t know how much it costs yearly to run all the youth divisions but I’m wondering if they are really profitable

PS thank you for not dismissing me from the get go, much appreciated.
 
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Man United still remain one of the few clubs that can name a first team 11 of academy players and not look like a relegation team.
1. Henderson
RB.
LB.
CB. Tuanzebe
CB Evans
CM. McT
CM Pogba
RW. Greenwood
LW. Garnacho
CAM. A Parreira
ST. Rashford
Bench : Heaton, Lingard, Keane,

Only Chelsea from Britain can assemble a better team
 
wangyu said:
@top1whoisman

I don’t like to debate here because it always get toxic…very fast and usually at my expense because I have alternative opinions.
I understand your views and they are all valid and especially in the past there was merit for Utd’s first team but back in those days football clubs weren’t necessarily buying clubs. The youth setup then was important to form a squad. Now teams are formed on the basis of money. Utd is developing players for lower league teams not for their own benefit.
I have thought about this often and I can’t wrap my brain around it why this should continue.
This is of course how it works in Europe and it will not change but in my opinion I would form national football training centers independent from football clubs to train and develop players. Then from age 18 they would be available on the transfer market.

I don’t know how much it costs yearly to run all the youth divisions but I’m wondering if they are really profitable
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Firstly, the issue you're describing, which like most on here I don't actually recognise as valid anyway, is specific to United. Lower half PL teams and sides in every other league in the pyramid absolutely rely on homegrown players. So you're suggesting replacing that entire system just because you don't think top PL teams need their academies.

Secondly the 'training centers' you propose would still need to be funded by clubs (since clubs are the institutions in football that actually generate revenue), and would need to play in some kind of league system anyway, because you can't learn to play competitive football without playing competitive football. So you're just proposing a complicated, inefficient, roundabout way to achieve the same ends.
 
wangyu said:
@top1whoisman

I don’t like to debate here because it always get toxic…very fast and usually at my expense because I have alternative opinions.
I understand your views and they are all valid and especially in the past there was merit for Utd’s first team but back in those days football clubs weren’t necessarily buying clubs. The youth setup then was important to form a squad. Now teams are formed on the basis of money. Utd is developing players for lower league teams not for their own benefit.*
I have thought about this often and I can’t wrap my brain around it why this should continue.**
This is of course how it works in Europe and it will not change but in my opinion I would form national football training centers independent from football clubs to train and develop players. Then from age 18 they would be available on the transfer market.

I don’t know how much it costs yearly to run all the youth divisions but I’m wondering if they are really profitable.***
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Thanks for the reply.

* This is like saying that United exists to finish in top four instead of winning titles, so it might as well not exist. The goal is to develop players for our own first team but not every player makes it. The same as the goal is to win trophies but if we don't, it doesn't mean there's no point in having a club.

** At the very least the club and its pre-academy are offering guided sports sessions for local kids. Should that be scrapped too because it doesn't make money or because the kids might not become United players?

*** I'm sure it's more profitable than buying your Rashfords, Sakas & Fodens for €85m when they're 18 and all the top clubs in Europe are after them.
 
redIndianDevil said:
No they don't. Just because kids these days don't tolerate bullies or abuses doesn't mean they are getting too much. Very few talented kids get to sign lucrative contracts these days.
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I don't see anyone from the Class of 92 complaining about being bullied or abused

And yes too many are given lucrative contracts far too early and the likes of Macheda have admit themselves today that they weren't mature enough to keep their feet on the ground
 
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