This.
What now for Dortmund (and the Bundesliga)?
- Thread starter Wumminator
- Start date
This.
I still enjoy the Bundesliga. I'm not sure why people here are complaining. These players Bayern get aren't forced to go. In fact, many of them make it clear they want to go to Bayern. What should BVB do? Football is like any other business when you break it down. BVB have come a long way since their near financial disaster in the early 2000s. Bayern have always taken from the Bundesliga and it hasn't guaranteed them success like this.
In terms of next season, I can see BVB winning it. Ancelotti is awful when it comes to the league. He is the only manager that hasn't won the league with PSG under the Qatar ownership, he won 1 league with Milan despite having the best players and best squad, made exactly the same mistakes in Madrid 2 seasons in a row with his lack of roattions that left the squad dead at the end of both seasons despite taking a good lead in both. With Chelsea he won the league then completely collapsed in the second seaason. I will be very surprised if they do as well in the league.
People also need to remmeber that the EPL was close to being monopolised by MAnchester United before Roman Abramovich came. If he didn't come and Qatar didn't but City, who would challenge Manchester Unted? Germany has a 50%+ rule which ensures that the clubs remain German owned which is very important to the fans.
In terms of next season, I can see BVB winning it. Ancelotti is awful when it comes to the league. He is the only manager that hasn't won the league with PSG under the Qatar ownership, he won 1 league with Milan despite having the best players and best squad, made exactly the same mistakes in Madrid 2 seasons in a row with his lack of roattions that left the squad dead at the end of both seasons despite taking a good lead in both. With Chelsea he won the league then completely collapsed in the second seaason. I will be very surprised if they do as well in the league.
People also need to remmeber that the EPL was close to being monopolised by MAnchester United before Roman Abramovich came. If he didn't come and Qatar didn't but City, who would challenge Manchester Unted? Germany has a 50%+ rule which ensures that the clubs remain German owned which is very important to the fans.
I see Dortmund as being in the same category as Atletico Madrid. Rabid fanbase, financial mismanagement in the 00's that hurt the sporting side of the club, unable to compete with the elite clubs financially at this time. Dortmund will be in a slightly weaker position to Atletico due to Atletico's superb academy allowing them to hold on to players a bit longer, but both clubs are obviously capable of challenging for the league and european cup in their better seasons.
Their progress over the past decade has been amazing, and the dysfunction of the other big clubs in Germany combined with the inconsistent nature of the works clubs makes me believe that they will be able to maintain their level for the foreseeable future barring sustained clusterfecks of 14/15 levels.
Their progress over the past decade has been amazing, and the dysfunction of the other big clubs in Germany combined with the inconsistent nature of the works clubs makes me believe that they will be able to maintain their level for the foreseeable future barring sustained clusterfecks of 14/15 levels.
I like and respect Borussia Dortmund. Great institution, great fans, sustainable business model. What I don't understand is why BVB continues to allow it's best players to leave them for Bayern. This happens very rarely in Spain. Atletico or Valencia never, ever sell to Real Madrid. If a player wants to leave, he knows it's preferably overseas. In the Premiership it happens a bit more often, but it's still pretty rare. Yet in Germany we see it almost every season.
Dortmund should insert clause in players contracts, that they cannot be sold to Bayern.
Dortmund should insert clause in players contracts, that they cannot be sold to Bayern.
Lewandowski - ran down his contract
Gotze - release clause
Hummels is the only one they allowed to leave. Better to sell your club captain to his boyhood club and net a great profit than hold on to him and potentially poison the well. If he tells them that is the only place he wants to go, their hands are tied.
Too simplified. Look how the revenue of most BL clubs breaks down. Most money comes from match day and commercial deals. There are costs attached to these types of income. Most PL clubs generate the majority of there income from TV deals, which is basically free money. Therefore Dortmund and other BL clubs have less money to spend on wages even if revenue is comparable to PL clubs.
Furthermore, most of the BL clubs finances rely more on sporting success (commercial deals and UEFA money), while in the PL you get loads of money even if you play shit. Thus, income is more volatile in the BL compared to the PL. BL clubs try to counter this by lower basic wages and higher success related bonus payments.
Why should Dortmund not go out of business this time if they overpay for wages and due to some isfortune sporting success decreases?
Brilliant idea, that way their players wouldn't even extend their contracts.
Except Ancelotti won the league with PSG 2013. I agree with your other points though, at Madrid his three main mistakes were: lack of rotation, lack of squad depth (didn't even cover every position twice) and lack of meritocracy (BBC will play no matter what). Given the circumstances it's very surprising that even players that hardly featured his selection never lost a bad word over him, in place like Madrid that's something very unusual.
Don't know much about his spell at PSG but with Madrid he faced Barça and a revived Atlético - competition on this level just doesn't exist in Germany. That said I would be very surprised if Bayern don't win and Dortmund gets nearly as close as this time. Will be interesting how he handles the media.
That is what I mean. It's bad management. Why is such a big club allowing itself to be in these situations where it becomes a feeder club to it's biggest rival. They should be renewing players long time before they leave or cash in on them from bids from overseas. They will never break Bayern's monopoly on the league until they address the situation.
Living in Germany and watching the Bundesliga regularly, Gundogan is injured a lot as you just said. He is a top class player to have as long as he manages to stay injury free. Sometimes I think all he needs to put him out for a month is an itchy ass.
In Reus Auba and Dembele and Mkhi playing behind them Dortmund will have an awesome front 4 next season.
But this won't last long either when some big club will come for Auba, Mkhitaryan will run down his contract and dembele will be linked to every big club on the planet.
It's a vicious circle and it must be so frustrating for a Dortmund fan.
But this won't last long either when some big club will come for Auba, Mkhitaryan will run down his contract and dembele will be linked to every big club on the planet.
It's a vicious circle and it must be so frustrating for a Dortmund fan.
BVB just bought Barca's own forever-falling-short-of-making-it-into-the-team 25 year old 'youth prospect' Bartra. I have a really, really hard time seeing him as an adequate Hummels replacement. Not good enough.
There is this concept called free will. It's all a bunch of Hippie stuff, I know, but most players seem to believe in it.
Let alone the fact that players know exactly which clubs are interested in them and how much they can earn there and if what Dortmund can offer is a lot less they can't really force the player to sign the contract anyways, can they?
I am deeply confident in the ability of Dembélé to shine there.
That his buy-out-clause was just 8m says everything about him.
I can only think that he is the replacement for Subotic + Ginter but surely not for Hummels or Dortmund's bosses are mad.
The sum was higher, but like Thiago back in the days Bartra played less than a certain amount of games so it went down to 8 mil.
Yes, surely this is just the beginning, rather than the end, of BVB's transfer activities.
Dembele, Merino, Bartra .... wonderful!
and i think there are more to come.
hummels for 38mio to buyern, thats ok! in terms of playmaker attitude he was brilliant, but he never was the fastest, if we are honest: our defense was to weak for a realy great topteam. getting so much money for him while his contract only left 1 year was the best.
i rate sokratis and bender higher as defenders. and with bartra (and maybe merino) there will be enough playmaker skills in the defence.
think it will be a great team next season!
think ancelotti wont play like pep ,and wont use the big squad like pep, they will be not so good as under pep.
saw an interview with him where he claims that the bundesliga is easy to win..hmm there were only 5 points difference till the end of the season....
and i think there are more to come.
hummels for 38mio to buyern, thats ok! in terms of playmaker attitude he was brilliant, but he never was the fastest, if we are honest: our defense was to weak for a realy great topteam. getting so much money for him while his contract only left 1 year was the best.
i rate sokratis and bender higher as defenders. and with bartra (and maybe merino) there will be enough playmaker skills in the defence.
think it will be a great team next season!
think ancelotti wont play like pep ,and wont use the big squad like pep, they will be not so good as under pep.
saw an interview with him where he claims that the bundesliga is easy to win..hmm there were only 5 points difference till the end of the season....
no, its great to see while a lot of clubs pay immense money for shit, we get interesting players and its doesnt take long unit they are great and near or worldclass, and everybody is wondering and then things starts like the english press writes about them all the time "bla bla for 60mio to united bla bla" what never happens and gives us joy.
what realy happens the last years?
götze for 37mio, look at him at buyern, a downfall and they want to get rid of him now, thx for the money!
lewandowski cost us 5mio and became worldclass. leaving for free but with his goals we won a lot. now we got aubameyang, frusttrating?
hummels for 38 mio, he is getting old, was the best we could do, we need fresh stuff for our genuis tuchel, says a lot that tuchel had no problems with leaving hummels.
gündogan was injured a lot. i mean realy a lot. needed time to get in form than he was worldclass. but very inconstant. the bvb was kind to him and he gives it back by renewing his contract twice, now we got money for him, everything ok.
our squad building is fantastic, even with some guys leavin the last years.
looking at a squad like that one of united, i doesnt want any player from united, but a lot of clubs want our players... and there are reasons for that: we just have great players.
is that frustrating? dont think so.
BILD are saying that Reus could be out for at least 4 months.
no, its great to see while a lot of clubs pay immense money for shit, we get interesting players and its doesnt take long unit they are great and near or worldclass, and everybody is wondering and then things starts like the english press writes about them all the time "bla bla for 60mio to united bla bla" what never happens and gives us joy.
what realy happens the last years?
götze for 37mio, look at him at buyern, a downfall and they want to get rid of him now, thx for the money!
lewandowski cost us 5mio and became worldclass. leaving for free but with his goals we won a lot. now we got aubameyang, frusttrating?
hummels for 38 mio, he is getting old, was the best we could do, we need fresh stuff for our genuis tuchel, says a lot that tuchel had no problems with leaving hummels.
gündogan was injured a lot. i mean realy a lot. needed time to get in form than he was worldclass. but very inconstant. the bvb was kind to him and he gives it back by renewing his contract twice, now we got money for him, everything ok.
our squad building is fantastic, even with some guys leavin the last years.
looking at a squad like that one of united, i doesnt want any player from united, but a lot of clubs want our players... and there are reasons for that: we just have great players.
is that frustrating? dont think so.
Yes when you list out the no. of players there are only 4 that have run their contracts down or surreptiously made contact with a rival club (Bayern). But that no. might increase further still with Mkhi and Auba. I guess the reaction to that is completely subjective. I would be frustrated.
Dortmund are supposedly still after Toprak. On one hand it would make sense, because Batra would be risky as a Hummels replacement on the other hand the Turk would be quite expensive and I don't see why Bartra would leave Barca's bench for Dortmund's.
Dembele - €8m
Bartra - €8m
Merino - €4m
Rode - ~€12m
Guerreiro - ~€12m
are supposedly all but done.
That's €54m spent already and probably at least as much as they netted from Hummels and Gündogan. So we have to wonder how much money is actually left. Toprak supposedly costs €25-30m, I wouldn't expect any big signings if he comes, too.
Afaik Toprak and Emre "Turkish Messi" Mor are the only semi serious candidates in the press right now.
Further sales might change things, these are the players I could see leaving, with the sums I'd roughly expect from non English clubs.
Ginter €10-15m
Subotic €5-10m
Sahin €10m
Ramos €10m
Park, Leitner <€5m
Dembele - €8m
Bartra - €8m
Merino - €4m
Rode - ~€12m
Guerreiro - ~€12m
are supposedly all but done.
That's €54m spent already and probably at least as much as they netted from Hummels and Gündogan. So we have to wonder how much money is actually left. Toprak supposedly costs €25-30m, I wouldn't expect any big signings if he comes, too.
Afaik Toprak and Emre "Turkish Messi" Mor are the only semi serious candidates in the press right now.
Further sales might change things, these are the players I could see leaving, with the sums I'd roughly expect from non English clubs.
Ginter €10-15m
Subotic €5-10m
Sahin €10m
Ramos €10m
Park, Leitner <€5m
ok its up to you.
i would be frustrated as a united fan, no cl, the squad is a mess...
our club was nearly shut down 10years ago...there is nothing to be frustrated about now :-)
I think you've misunderstood my statements. I'm not trying to offend you, I was merely stating how I would feel if I were a Dortmund fan. I really like Dortmund and the way they play their football and their incredible stadium atmosphere.
And yes as a united fan I am frustrated that we aren't in the CL.
Didn't Mustafi confirm that Dortmund was in contact with him? Doesn't have to be true though, just remember reading it somewhere last week. I guess it depends what plans Tuchel has with Merino, Bender, Ginter and if Subotic stays. That's 4 possible centerback back-ups. I'm also not convinced that Mustafi + Sokratis are a complementary pair, though it would be an entertaining defense with lots of aggression.
If Toprak really wants to leave, I don't think Leverkusen will keep him. He either should extend or be sold, because if he doesn't extend, he'll leave next season anyway for his 12m buy-out clause.
I think you've misunderstood my statements. I'm not trying to offend you, I was merely stating how I would feel if I were a Dortmund fan. I really like Dortmund and the way they play their football and their incredible stadium atmosphere.
And yes as a united fan I am frustrated that we aren't in the CL.
imagine:
your club was nearly shut down 10 years ago. and then starting a development like a fairy tale, wining the league twice, the cup, getting into the cl final, now we are clearly a european topclub with the most audience in europe (everytime more than 80000).
in front of us are only
1. Real Madrid
2. FC Buy€rn München
3. Barcelona
4. Atletico Madrid
5. Chelsea
6. Benfica Lissabon
7. Paris SG
8. BVB
that would be frustrating for you?
i dont think so
@Balu
I think if Leverkusen were really caving in something would've happened by now. They supposedly set their limit around €25-30m, which imo would be the on the upper end of fair, but not worth it for a club with Dortmund's resources. When I first heard trustworthy reports about Bartra I thought that they would sign him now and wait a season for Toprak to sign him for just the €12m and move on whoever looks weakest next season. Imho that would've been a very shrewd plan.
There was a report from spox that claimed initial contact had been made with Mustafi's agent, but I don't see how Dortmund would be willing to pay the sums that are circulating in the media.
Personally I could also see Sokratis leaving if a good offer comes in. He's a great combative defender, but I think that his weaknesses on the ball are hurting Dortmund against opponents who press aggressively upfront.
I think if Leverkusen were really caving in something would've happened by now. They supposedly set their limit around €25-30m, which imo would be the on the upper end of fair, but not worth it for a club with Dortmund's resources. When I first heard trustworthy reports about Bartra I thought that they would sign him now and wait a season for Toprak to sign him for just the €12m and move on whoever looks weakest next season. Imho that would've been a very shrewd plan.
There was a report from spox that claimed initial contact had been made with Mustafi's agent, but I don't see how Dortmund would be willing to pay the sums that are circulating in the media.
Personally I could also see Sokratis leaving if a good offer comes in. He's a great combative defender, but I think that his weaknesses on the ball are hurting Dortmund against opponents who press aggressively upfront.
Would be gutted if they got Rode, but it seems inevitable. Pep really fecked with that guy's career, he's a brilliant and versatile player that should've featured way more often.
imagine:
your club was nearly shut down 10 years ago. and then starting a development like a fairy tale, wining the league twice, the cup, getting into the cl final, now we are clearly a european topclub with the most audience in europe (everytime more than 80000).
in front of us are only
1. Real Madrid
2. FC Buy€rn München
3. Barcelona
4. Atletico Madrid
5. Chelsea
6. Benfica Lissabon
7. Paris SG
8. BVB
that would be frustrating for you?
i dont think so
Thats why I have immense respect for Dortmund and its the only German team I've ever liked or watched live.
I guess as a united fan for the last 20 years I'm very spoilt and thats why I get frustrated if we don't excel. That explains my feelings towards Dortmunds current situation.
Good luck to you for next season. So far it seems the club has spent their money well. I like Rode (feel he's very underrated) and im really looking forward to seeing Dembele in action.
thx!!!
iam looking forward to see dembele too! it will be interesting how tuchel wants to play with him.
When he took over after the winter break, PSG were the league leaders. They should have won the league comfortably.
He is the perfect yes man. Great cup coach, below par League manager based on the resources he has had.
He nontheless won the league. But I agree with your conclusion. Seems like a great fit for Bayern, as even a below par league manager might comfortably succeed with this squad.
I really wouldn't be surprised if BvB won the league. I am looking forward to it. Ancelotti plays the opposite football of Pep and is a counter attacking specialist. I wouldn't be surprised if they reached the CL final and lose out on the league.
I am quite happy, that he can join Dortmund. He is a great guy and a good player. Tuchel will make good use of him and he has a a small chance to become a starter. He´ll play a lot more and he deserves it. There is too much competition in Munich in his position.
From his time with Madrid I'd say that Ancelotti isn't nowhere near to be a counter attacking specialist. Sure he played in a counter attacking setup against Bayern in the CL when they won la Décima but that obviously was a direct response to the style of Bayern at the time - which turned out to work perfectly. Apart from that he played possesion based attacking football so I don't think it's an accurate assessment to say he is a counter attacking specialist and imo even poorer to suggest he'd setup the Bayern team that way.
Right now the question marks with BVB remain much bigger, with players like Gundogan and Hummels already gone and Aubameyang on the verge of leaving. Tuchel still has a lot more to prove than Ancelotti who has superiour ressources on all departements.
Given that, Bayern clearly are on field 1 with BVB on field 2 who imo need an outright perfect development to beat them. But everything can happen in a season and only an idiot would be surprised if BVB won the league, because they are the next team to consider after Bayern, but from today's perspective it's really unrealistic.
Zorc has now confirmed that Toprak will not join Dortmund this summer.
Well Dortmund have been replaced by Athletico Madrid as the "second team". Keep up with the hipsters please!