What now for Dortmund (and the Bundesliga)?

[Kag]

They're a joke of a club.

Everyone loved them when Gotze, Reus, Lewandowski, Hummels and Klopp were there. But look what happened, they let their best players go to their main rivals. Even their manager got sick of it.

How are they supposed to compete with Bayern when their best players would rather jump ship than fight for the team? Everyone they buy that comes good will inevitably leave them. So they're just going round in circles really.

I'm not sure what they're supposed to do, really? They tried the tough man route and lost Lewandowski on a free. If their players don't want to be there then they can't keep allowing them to leave for nothing. It's unsustainable.

The Bundesliga is a bit of a joke (as in uncompetitive) as a result, but what is the alternative?

 

[Snowjoe]

Don't know what to think about all these "leave Twigg alone, he's made a decent thread finally" posts

Make the most of it whilst you can

 

[Sarni]

People keep saying this, but I'm sure he played whenever I watched them (rarely admittedly) this year.

He played the ninth most minutes for the club across all competitions (I've just seen after googling)

Well ninth more minutes is not really someone you cannot possibly replace? Especially considering as some players will probably have their minutes cut by long injuries (Reus I seem to remember being out forever). And even if he played a lot it doesn't mean he was good or key in those game. They'll do fine without him, I actually think he might not turn out to be good business for City at all.

 

[Wumminator]

Well ninth more minutes is not really someone you cannot possibly replace? Especially considering as some players will probably have their minutes cut by long injuries (Reus I seem to remember being out forever). And even if he played a lot it doesn't mean he was good or key in those game. They'll do fine without him, I actually think he might not turn out to be good business for City at all.

Oh they can replace him. However with Hummels and Gundogan going, I think it's vital that no other first team players leave. It's very hard to replace these players all successfully.

I would really like them to win the Bundesliga next year, I just worry it's becoming an impossible task.

 

[Wumminator]

Make the most of it whilst you can

Lot of pressure on my next thread...

 

[B20]

Lot of pressure on my next thread...

No worries. We all expect you to fail.

 

[NinjaZombie]

I'm not sure what they're supposed to do, really? They tried the tough man route and lost Lewandowski on a free. If their players don't want to be there then they can't keep allowing them to leave for nothing. It's unsustainable.

The Bundesliga is a bit of a joke (as in uncompetitive) as a result, but what is the alternative?

I can't be the only one sick of seeing Bayern end up with the top players from their closest league rivals. You'd think Dortmund would actually insist on selling their players overseas.

Imagine us buying Vieira and Bergkamp right after winning the treble.

 

[Sarni]

Oh they can replace him. However with Hummels and Gundogan going, I think it's vital that no other first team players leave. It's very hard to replace these players all successfully.

I would really like them to win the Bundesliga next year, I just worry it's becoming an impossible task.

Yep I agree. Two players is enough, if someone like Mkhitaryan (likely) or Aubameyang (not likely) also leaves, it becomes very tough. For Mkhitaryan they already have a great replacement in Dembele though.

 

[do.ob]

Yep I agree. Two players is enough, if someone like Mkhitaryan (likely) or Aubameyang (not likely) also leaves, it becomes very tough. For Mkhitaryan they already have a great replacement in Dembele though.

The Mkhitaryan from this season can not be replaced he'd be by far their biggest loss, Aubameyang on the other hand would be replaceable imo, because he is not nearly as involved in the play.

 

[Balu]

Yep I agree. Two players is enough, if someone like Mkhitaryan (likely) or Aubameyang (not likely) also leaves, it becomes very tough. For Mkhitaryan they already have a great replacement in Dembele though.

I doubt they let Mkhitaryan go now that Reus might be injured for 3-4 months (or even more, difficult to predict with his injury - Inflammation of the pubic bone joint really sucks in that regard). They might have considered it otherwise for the right offer even though Watzke said they wouldn't. I wouldn't be surprised to see Mkhitaryan sign a rather short extension so that he plays on significantly higher wages but still has the option to leave next summer.

 

[Rado_N]

No worries. We all expect you to fail.

 

[Kag]

I can't be the only one sick of seeing Bayern end up with the top players from their closest league rivals. You'd think Dortmund would actually insist on selling their players overseas.

Imagine us buying Vieira and Bergkamp right after winning the treble.

I think they've tried that, to be fair to them. Sahin and Kagawa moved abroad. In the case of Gotze, Bayern activated his release clause. With Lewandowski, like I said, they tried to hold firm only to lose money on a top class striker.

Hummels is the only player you can argue they could be doing more to prevent going to Bayern. Even then, he holds all the cards.

It's a shitty situation, but what can you do to stop it?

 

[zee.robs]

Dortmund are still in an excellent position. There are currently one of the 11 richest clubs in Europe (Deloitte 14/15) and by far the second richest club in Germany behind Bayern. In absolute numbers there revenue is growing at a similar pace as Bayerns, meaning that the relative financial disadvantage is slowly diminishing. One the other hand, they are growing faster than any other Team from the Bundesliga.

Due to this, they should only loose players to Real, Barca, Bayern, PSG, City, Chelsea and MUFC for financial reasons. On the other hand they have the second pick on all the prospects from Germany. Furthermore they can offer rich history and superb atmosphere.

Their only problem is, that they can't guarantee sporting success. While CL qualification is expected, actual titles are hard to achieve. Odds for a BL title are currently 13% which is comparable to Arsenals, Chelseas and Tottenhams odds. To put this into perspective there odds for a CL win are at 7% only behind Barca, Real and Bayern.

 

[Red_Beans]

Even we could not compete with this Bayern team if we were in the same league. They are without doubt one of the three biggest teams in Europe right now. That Dortmund is acknowledged as their main competition is a massive compliment when you consider the financial gulf between the two sides

 

[VP89]

Dortmund are still in an excellent position. There are currently one of the 11 richest clubs in Europe (Deloitte 14/15) and by far the second richest club in Germany behind Bayern. In absolute numbers there revenue is growing at a similar pace as Bayerns, meaning that the relative financial disadvantage is slowly diminishing. One the other hand, they are growing faster than any other Team from the Bundesliga.

Due to this, they should only loose players to Real, Barca, Bayern, PSG, City, Chelsea and MUFC for financial reasons. On the other hand they have the second pick on all the prospects from Germany. Furthermore they can offer rich history and superb atmosphere.

Their only problem is, that they can't guarantee sporting success. While CL qualification is expected, actual titles are hard to achieve. Odds for a BL title are currently 13% which is comparable to Arsenals, Chelseas and Tottenhams odds. To put this into perspective there odds for a CL win are at 7% only behind Barca, Real and Bayern.

So basically they're a German Arsenal

Great post, btw.

 

[strongwalker]

Dortmund actually have a fighting chance to close the financial gap or at least narrow it down. Money comes from CL success, from TV deals, from merchandise. They have the stadium and the supporters, they have an excellent image throughout Europe to attract sponsors. For CL success they will need to continue their good work in developing the team. If they don't hit a stroke of bad luck with new signings, they can keep in striking distance to Bayern and, internationally, pass some of the other top teams.

 

[Coxy]

I can't be the only one sick of seeing Bayern end up with the top players from their closest league rivals. You'd think Dortmund would actually insist on selling their players overseas.

Imagine us buying Vieira and Bergkamp right after winning the treble.

Would love to see one of their players stick 2 fingers up and say they'd rather stay at Dortmund.

Even we could not compete with this Bayern team if we were in the same league. They are without doubt one of the three biggest teams in Europe right now. That Dortmund is acknowledged as their main competition is a massive compliment when you consider the financial gulf between the two sides

Slight understatement. I hope you get back to where you used to be - but right now nowhere near their level.

 

[cyberman]

Even we could not compete with this Bayern team if we were in the same league. They are without doubt one of the three biggest teams in Europe right now. That Dortmund is acknowledged as their main competition is a massive compliment when you consider the financial gulf between the two sides

If Bayern were in England they would not have reached this status in the first place imo. Our league doesn't allow super clubs to form. Look at Stones. If this were Germany and Bayern wanted him they would be negotiating a low fee right now. In England we have 3 mega rich clubs fighting for him which is driving the price up never mind having more options for the player if he wanted to stay in his league. Its not as if you leave Dortmund for Leverkusen if you want to continue in Germany as a top player.

 

[Cassidy]

If Bayern were in England they would not have reached this status in the first place imo. Our league doesn't allow super clubs to form. Look at Stones. If this were Germany and Bayern wanted him they would be negotiating a low fee right now. In England we have 3 mega rich clubs fighting for him which is driving the price up never mind having more options for the player if he wanted to stay in his league. Its not as if you leave Dortmund for Leverkusen if you want to continue in Germany as a top player.

Yet the league has United, and emerging City

 

[cyberman]

Yet the league has United, and emerging City

And we are as big as we can be. We will never dominate the league as super clubs the way they do.
When you face Bayern you are essentially facing the best 11 German football can provide. A best of side.

 

[Cassidy]

And we are as big as we can be. We will never dominate the league as super clubs the way they do.
When you face Bayern you are essentially facing the best 11 German football can provide. A best of side.

We we're that for a very long time. Things change, and they can in Germany as well

 

[NoLogo]

Honestly nothing really changed for Dortmund. They lose their best players, pick up new one, make them big and they walk on again. The fate of every that's not at the end of the food chain when it comes to club football. Still through all this they have established themselves as the second best team in Germany, a feat some other clubs didn't manage after losing their first wave of good players. Maybe they can keep up this good work long enough to one day be able to keep their best players even against the financially pulling power of Europe's football elite but until then this cycle will repeat itself.

 

[strongwalker]

Honestly nothing really changed for Dortmund. They lose their best players, pick up new one, make them big and they walk on again. The fate of every that's not at the end of the food chain when it comes to club football. Still through all this they have established themselves as the second best team in Germany, a feat some other clubs didn't manage after losing their first wave of good players. Maybe they can keep up this good work long enough to one day be able to keep their best players even against the financially pulling power of Europe's football elite but until then this cycle will repeat itself.

Those on top of the foodchain are a small bunch indeed and can soak up only so many players. I mean, how many diffenrent players for each position can Real, Barca, Bayern (and maybe City) hire? I'd say BVB *is* in a position to be an alternative for players considered by PSG, Chelsea, United (or City). While they are not an absolute prime club, they are close behind those. So i see no reason for whining, really. They closed Dembele who is considered the next hot thing (possibly more so than Sanches), now Marc Bartra is rumoured to be a Hummels replacement. Not exactly second-grade material.

 

[Blackwidow]

If Bayern were in England they would not have reached this status in the first place imo. Our league doesn't allow super clubs to form. Look at Stones. If this were Germany and Bayern wanted him they would be negotiating a low fee right now. In England we have 3 mega rich clubs fighting for him which is driving the price up never mind having more options for the player if he wanted to stay in his league. Its not as if you leave Dortmund for Leverkusen if you want to continue in Germany as a top player.

How many of the top players in Germany transferred to Bayern in the recent seasons? The most of the players Bayern bought abroad.

Bayern does not get low fees either from the other clubs in Germany. We did not get Neuer for cheap, Gomez or Hummels. Bayern might not have to compete against other German clubs - but they have to compete against the other elite clubs in Europe and no Dortmund, Gladbach whoever cares if they sell to Bayern or any of the others. Sometimes - like e.g. with Vidal and Leverkusen or Lewy in 2013 - the clubs will sell to everybody but to Bayern...

Lewy was out of contract - everybody could have gotten him then for nothing. Götze had a release clause - same story. The same you can tell about Dortmund when they got Reus from Gladbach.

-----------------

As I told before - do not just look at Dortmund and Bayern - but look to the other top clubs in Germany, too. Dortmund is in a very good position.

 

[NoLogo]

Those on top of the foodchain are a small bunch indeed and can soak up only so many players. I mean, how many diffenrent players for each position can Real, Barca, Bayern (and maybe City) hire? I'd say BVB *is* in a position to be an alternative for players considered by PSG, Chelsea, United (or City). While they are not an absolute prime club, they are close behind those. So i see no reason for whining, really. They closed Dembele who is considered the next hot thing (possibly more so than Sanches), now Marc Bartra is rumoured to be a Hummels replacement. Not exactly second-grade material.

But for them it's just a temporary station. Also financially they are still not able to provide the top wages to compete with the teams you mentioned. A player might see Dortmund as a better destination to break through into the elite but it's really a team that can not hold on to the very best. I also don't think it's whining to point this out, it's a realistic assertion of their situation and btw one that many teams in the Bundesliga are in not just Dortmund. Schalke, Gladbach, Leverkusen or Wolfsburg aren't off any better in that regard, probably even worse.

There are also teams in England who have more or less always lost their star players to the very elite teams and those teams are used to it, of going through a rebuilding process, finding new talents that will temporarily boost them enough to maybe have a shot at a trophy and then they move on. It's the completely normal circle of how club football works.

 

[Blackwidow]

On the other hand they have the second pick on all the prospects from Germany.

I do not think that Bayern has the first pick on the prospects from Germany. The German talents seem not to decide where to first get the best money but where they have the best chances for the breakthrough.

If you look into the German U-teams you hardly find Bayern players in...

 

[cyberman]

How many of the top players in Germany transferred to Bayern in the recent seasons? The most of the players Bayern bought abroad.

Bayern does not get low fees either from the other clubs in Germany. We did not get Neuer for cheap, Gomez or Hummels. Bayern might not have to compete against other German clubs - but they have to compete against the other elite clubs in Europe and no Dortmund, Gladbach whoever cares if they sell to Bayern or any of the others. Sometimes - like e.g. with Vidal and Leverkusen or Lewy in 2013 - the clubs will sell to everybody but to Bayern...

Lewy was out of contract - everybody could have gotten him then for nothing. Götze had a release clause - same story. The same you can tell about Dortmund when they got Reus from Gladbach.

-----------------

As I told before - do not just look at Dortmund and Bayern - but look to the other top clubs in Germany, too. Dortmund is in a very good position.

Of course Bayern have a best of 11 from German football since all of those players could be players in an actual best of line up and not look out of place.
They sign intetnational players that other German sides have no chance of getting and have first dibs on most players in the league.
No club that has had to sell player after player every season lasts. Dortmund aren't so special as to buck that trend imo.
Dortmund can only maintain in that climate, not grow

 

[U99ted]

They won't necessarily beat Bayern, but I'm sure they'll continue doing well. Like how every year Southampton sell a load of players but seem to keep doing better.

 

[Blackwidow]

Of course Bayern have a best of 11 from German football since all of those players could be players in an actual best of line up and not look out of place.
They sign intetnational players that other German sides have no chance of getting and have first dibs on most players in the league.
No club that has had to sell player after player every season lasts. Dortmund aren't so special as to buck that trend imo.
Dortmund can only maintain in that climate, not grow

They actually grow - the only thing that stopped it for awhile was their 14/15 season in which they underperformed. The art is not to have such seasons. If they permanently stay in the CL spots and keep the managerial attitude they have right now (and haven't had 15 years ago) the gap between Bayern and them will get smaller with each year. But you cannot expect a club to be on the same level after 5 years of good work that others needed decades for.

 

[do.ob]

If Bayern were in England they would not have reached this status in the first place imo. Our league doesn't allow super clubs to form. Look at Stones. If this were Germany and Bayern wanted him they would be negotiating a low fee right now. In England we have 3 mega rich clubs fighting for him which is driving the price up never mind having more options for the player if he wanted to stay in his league. Its not as if you leave Dortmund for Leverkusen if you want to continue in Germany as a top player.

Silly argument. United were in a position not that dissimilar from Bayern until the oil money swept in, the difference is that Bundesliga's rules don't allow that. Also Bayern getting free picks and special discounts is a myth, too. They had to wait out Lewandowski's contract, they used a clause for Götze which everyone could have activated and I wouldn't call the fee for Hummels cheap either. They also paid €25-30m with a shit ton of addons for Neuer (making him the second most expensive keeper in history, after Buffon) and €30m for Gomez which was around €5m more than the league's previous record (Amoroso in 2001). In 2011 when Vidal's contract was down to a year (iirc) they agreed terms with the player but were told to feck off by Leverkusen who then sold him for a cheap fee to Juventus in winter.

 

[Sly]

If they buy Guerreiro, it's a very good purchase along with Dembelé and the rest of Dortmund's young core. I´m a big fan of Raphael Guerreiro. He reminds me of Coentrão when he wasn't injury prone. He's a good attacking left back, who has to work a bit on his defending but he's young and can improve. He's a good free kick taker (as seen in his great free kick goal against Norway) and has a decent scoring record for a full back in our national team (also scored against Argentina). There were some rumours about portuguese big three interest but he's too expensive for our league. I wish him the best if he joins Dortmund. He will be our left back in the future, if he continues to evolve this way.

 

[Blackwidow]

The only thing that is bothering is that they somehow lost the spine they had. But... it was Klopp's spine...

 

[zee.robs]

So basically they're a German Arsenal

Great post, btw.

They are not thaaat bad. I mean they actually won stuff other the 4th place trophy and claim that they intend to win more trophies as well... but in principle the comparison is not so wrong. They are a second tier club which needs lots of luck on and of the pitch (above average signings, errors made by super clubs) to become a super club themselves.

I do not think that Bayern has the first pick on the prospects from Germany. The German talents seem not to decide where to first get the best money but where they have the best chances for the breakthrough.

If you look into the German U-teams you hardly find Bayern players in...

Prospects/ talents was the wrong word. Naturally, they don't buy the random talented 17 year old, since it would be a bad move for the player (no playing time) and the club (silly money for nothing). Still, playing for Bayern is the pinnacle for most German players as well as all foreign players which don't want to move abroad.

 

[cyberman]

Silly argument. United were in a position not that dissimilar from Bayern until the oil money swept in, the difference is that Bundesliga's rules don't allow that. Also Bayern getting free picks and special discounts is a myth, too. They had to wait out Lewandowski's contract, they used a clause for Götze which everyone could have activated and I wouldn't call the fee for Hummels cheap either. They also paid €25-30m with a shit ton of addons for Neuer (making him the second most expensive keeper in history, after Buffon) and €30m for Gomez which was around €5m more than the league's previous record (Amoroso in 2001). In 2011 when Vidal's contract was down to a year (iirc) they agreed terms with the player but were told to feck off by Leverkusen who then sold him for a cheap fee to Juventus in winter.

Bayern have a history of raping their nearest competitors. Look at Leverkusen through the Ballack era etc.
United also never bought from our nearest competitors so how we were in a similar position is ridiculous. Be it Blackburn being bankrolled or Newcastle breaking the world record fee or Wenger using his knowledge of emerging French talents we were never the sole money club nor having a hand in breaking up those teams for our own benifit.
Oh woe are Bayern that they had to wait a year to sign the best striker in the league from their nearest rivals btw.

 

[Revan]

Quote disappointed that they lost those two players. I thought that they will win the title in this season, providing that they would have kept all the players and make some good additions like Dembele. Now, it is hard to see Bayern not winning the title, even though they are managed by Ancelotti.

 

[do.ob]

Bayern have a history of raping their nearest competitors. Look at Leverkusen through the Ballack era etc.
United also never bought from our nearest competitors so how we were in a similar position is ridiculous. Be it Blackburn being bankrolled or Newcastle breaking the world record fee or Wenger using his knowledge of emerging French talents we were never the sole money club nor having a hand in breaking up those teams for our own benifit.
Oh woe are Bayern that they had to wait a year to sign the best striker in the league from their nearest rivals btw.

United were in a similar position as in the club dominated the league both on the pitch and financially for years and from what I remember Fergie had no scruples about buying from PL clubs.

And what more resistance do you expect from a club than letting the contract run down? Shoot the player? After that he was fair game and Bayern came out on top, it's not the fault of the league if other clubs didn't realize his potential or couldn't make him an offer as convincing as Bayern's.

 

[Nanook]

Dortmund and other Bundesliga clubs should spend more on wages, they have the lowest wage bill to revenue ratio out of all the big leagues in Europe. I know Dortmund nearly went out of business a few years ago but I can't see that happening again.

 

[do.ob]

Dortmund and other Bundesliga clubs should spend more on wages, they have the lowest wage bill to revenue ratio out of all the big leagues in Europe. I know Dortmund nearly went out of business a few years ago but I can't see that happening again.

Dortmund have been increasing their wage bill steadily, but I doubt they could pay the kind of money that could keep a player from leaving if he wants to join Bayern, it's also not like clubs are hoarding money in their bank accounts here. Higher wages would have to come out of something else, most likely youth work or transfer budgets..

 

[Fergus' son]

Bundesliga is a bit of a joke really, as soon as Dortmund start threatening Bayern just go out and buy their players - surely as a fan you wouldn't get any satisfaction out of that?

 

[KingMinger22]

It's must be really dull as a fan to go into a season where the league winners are already pretty much set in stone.