What do we still need? Post Summer 2017 edition

Sandikan said:
We could do with taking City's approach and going big on a couple of full backs.
We surely cannot spend another year waiting to see if Shaw will come through, and we can't use Young as a main starter for another season.
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City have barely used one of the fullbacks they've gone big on, in Mendy. Delph and more recently Zinchenko have played there a lot more. New full backs will improve us but only so much, will always come down to the system and coaching. Under Sir Alex, even Hargreaves looked like a competent RB because of the attacking play we were producing.
 
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MyOnlySolskjaer said:
City have barely used one of the fullbacks they've gone big on, in Mendy. Delph and more recently Zivchenko have played there a lot more. New full backs will improve us but only so much, will always come down to the system and coaching. Under Sir Alex, even Hargreaves looked like a competent RB because of the attacking play we were producing.
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It's an interesting point tbh, given Mendy has barely played has Walker alone made that much difference to them? Would they seriously be that worse off if Sagna was still playing? Undoubtedly the signing that's made the most difference to City is Ederson
 
charlenefan said:
It's an interesting point tbh, given Mendy has barely played has Walker alone made that much difference to them? Would they seriously be that worse off if Sagna was still playing? Undoubtedly the signing that's made the most difference to City is Ederson
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Biggest difference to them has been that learning curve with Pep and fully adjusting to his tactics, players getting belief, some lucky late wins at the start of the season for confidence and then turning into the dominant machine they are now. Not down to Kyle Walker or Ederson, though Ederson not fecking up for them every time the opponent has a chance is big compared to last season.
It's all in their system and the team they built to play it.
 
bosnian_red said:
Biggest difference to them has been that learning curve with Pep and fully adjusting to his tactics, players getting belief, some lucky late wins at the start of the season for confidence and then turning into the dominant machine they are now. Not down to Kyle Walker or Ederson, though Ederson not fecking up for them every time the opponent has a chance is big compared to last season.
It's all in their system and the team they built to play it.
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Agreed fully
 
MyOnlySolskjaer said:
City have barely used one of the fullbacks they've gone big on, in Mendy. Delph and more recently Zinchenko have played there a lot more. New full backs will improve us but only so much, will always come down to the system and coaching. Under Sir Alex, even Hargreaves looked like a competent RB because of the attacking play we were producing.
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It's a good point, I don't feel it matters who we buy we are unlikely to improve as an attacking unit, our issues are in how the players are coached and instructed when it comes to that lack of cohesion in attack, there isn't a lack of talent in our forward options. We need fullbacks of course as we don't really have a LB and Valencia is getting on, but they wont transform this team in an attacking sense.
 
MyOnlySolskjaer said:
City have barely used one of the fullbacks they've gone big on, in Mendy. Delph and more recently Zinchenko have played there a lot more. New full backs will improve us but only so much, will always come down to the system and coaching. Under Sir Alex, even Hargreaves looked like a competent RB because of the attacking play we were producing.
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Mendy got injured very early in the season
 
If we went batshit crazy with 6 signings like suggested above I'd go all in! :D

CB - Alderweireld
LB - Sandro
RB - Odriozola
CM - Kovacic
CM - Ruben Neves
RWF - Eriksen
 
Devil may care said:
If we went batshit crazy with 6 signings like suggested above I'd go all in! :D

CB - Alderweireld
LB - Sandro
RB - Odriozola
CM - Kovacic
CM - Ruben Neves
RWF - Eriksen
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Yeah, I genuinely think that’s along the lines of what we need to get to where we want to be.

I’d agree with all those apart from Neves who I’m not familiar with.
 
In:

Toby Alderweireld = 40m
Alex Sandro = 60m
Julian Weigl = 50m
Wilfred Ndidi = 50m
Gelson Martins = 50m

= 250m

Out:

Phil Jones = 15m
Marcos Rojo = 10m
Daley Blind = 15m
Matteo Darmian = 10m

= 50m

2h2mwkw.jpg
 
YouOnlyLiveTwice said:
In:

Toby Alderweireld = 40m
Alex Sandro = 60m
Julian Weigl = 50m
Wilfred Ndidi = 50m
Gelson Martins = 50m

= 250m

Out:

Phil Jones = 15m
Marcos Rojo = 10m
Daley Blind = 15m
Matteo Darmian = 10m

= 50m

2h2mwkw.jpg
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Ndidi? Hmmm not sure on that one. There’s not much creativity in that midfield. Isn’t Martins already pushing 30?

Also I suspect we will lose 2 keepers this summer; Romero and I’d be very surprised if DeGea doesn’t opt out
 
golden_blunder said:
Ndidi? Hmmm not sure on that one. There’s not much creativity in that midfield. Isn’t Martins already pushing 30?

Also I suspect we will lose 2 keepers this summer; Romero and I’d be very surprised if DeGea doesn’t opt out
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Weigl is a good passer and Pogba, Martins and Alexis can all make something happen. Martins is in his early 20s AFAIK. That being said, I don't know if he's the answer as I haven't seen him play that much.
 
ArjenIsM3 said:
Weigl is a good passer and Pogba, Martins and Alexis can all make something happen. Martins is in his early 20s AFAIK. That being said, I don't know if he's the answer as I haven't seen him play that much.
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Martins - apologies I was thinking of someone else
 
Weigl for 50m :lol:

He ll stay at Dortmund at least for another season anyway.
 
We need a new manager first and foremost. We can have Messi in our team and still he'd be lining up as an auxillary fullback in the setup.

Sanchez, Pogba are all looking half the players under his management, what's the guarantee that anymore shiny new objects will be successful here?
 
Devil may care said:
I don't feel it matters who we buy we are unlikely to improve as an attacking unit, our issues are in how the players are coached and instructed when it comes to that lack of cohesion in attack...
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I honestly don't know, I'm not completely sure about this....

Is the problem that our CB's are so unable to distribute the ball forward competently?

When I looked back at footage from the Sevilla game, I was shocked at the number of times our midfield (especially Pogba when he came on) were going back to our CBs and literally taking the ball off their toes to bring it forward.

What this then means (using Pogba as an example) is that he has the ball 30 or 40 yards further back to where you want him to be, from where he can start to hurt the opposition.
Pogba has 2 options from this deep position, he either tries to dribble the ball forward 40 yards, or he hoofs it long to the big fella up front.
Both options are doomed to failure and we lose possession.

The other consequence is that Lukaku is being isolated from our midfield, and that Sanchez, is himself coming back far too deep to collect the ball, where he was then doing the same as Pogba, ie. trying to dribble from far too deep and was being crowded out and losing possession.

Is the root cause, a lack of faith in the ball playing abilities of our CBs..?
Or is that the instruction of Mourinho to not venture forward?
Honestly, I really don't know....

Think back to Rio Ferdinand.
He had the ability to confidently bring the ball forward or make a decent pass forward, allowing our midfield to do their job further up the pitch, which in turn aids the strikers, as they are getting service and support.

Does our whole game go up a couple of notches simply by having faith that our CBs are competent to bring the ball forward?
 
I think many are missing the point when only talking about formations, player archetypes, and historical styles.

What every team 'needs' is the following:

Players who can contribute to the passing in midfield
Players who can get into the box
Players who can disrupt the lines of opposition teams
Players who can provide width
Players who can fill-in gaps in defence
Players who can retain possession
Players who can create chances

We're falling short in a lot of those areas, and many of the proposed purchases I'm seeing are failing to address them. Any players we buy or formations we play need to chosen in light of that.

(Sorry about the arrows, it's the only way I can think of to illustrate my point)

256d4iw.jpg


What we lack is adequate cover for Pogba, who's the only player we have who can make something happen.

With that in mind, what I would do is buy:
Savic
Fekir
Maybe a dm
Maybe a ballplaying rb
Maybe a ballplaying lb

Savic and Pogba like to drift wide and attack. Let those two give us our width. Yes we lack a controller in midfield, but that's not strictly necessary. Rather than having one player who makes 100 passes per match, we could just as effectively employ three midfielders who make 60 passes each per match.

Our forwards are all strikers. There's not a wide player among them, and certainly nobody who you could really on to make dangerous passes in dangerous areas. I'd buy Fekir to address that. Pogba/Savic behind would free everyone up to get into the box.

By having Pogba and Savic be the outlets on the wings (both are great crossers) the fullbacks would need to be good ballplayers who can step into midfield occasionally, but who DON'T need to be pseudo-wingers. I'd be happy enough with Lindelof and Tuanzebe there, but wouldn't be averse to new signings.

We're a team of technical giants. Asking for high pressing is unrealistic. Building a solid base with defined roles is the best way to go, in my opinion.
 
KM said:
We need a new manager first and foremost. We can have Messi in our team and still he'd be lining up as an auxillary fullback in the setup.

Sanchez, Pogba are all looking half the players under his management, what's the guarantee that anymore shiny new objects will be successful here?
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Pretty much this...

I've lost the will to come on here after the way we surrendered against Sevilla thanks to Mourinho. It doesn't matter who we sign, our manager will still be a coward...
 
Ikon said:
I honestly don't know, I'm not completely sure about this....

Is the problem that our CB's are so unable to distribute the ball forward competently?

When I looked back at footage from the Sevilla game, I was shocked at the number of times our midfield (especially Pogba when he came on) were going back to our CBs and literally taking the ball off their toes to bring it forward.

What this then means (using Pogba as an example) is that he has the ball 30 or 40 yards further back to where you want him to be, from where he can start to hurt the opposition.
Pogba has 2 options from this deep position, he either tries to dribble the ball forward 40 yards, or he hoofs it long to the big fella up front.
Both options are doomed to failure and we lose possession.

The other consequence is that Lukaku is being isolated from our midfield, and that Sanchez, is himself coming back far too deep to collect the ball, where he was then doing the same as Pogba, ie. trying to dribble from far too deep and was being crowded out and losing possession.

Is the root cause, a lack of faith in the ball playing abilities of our CBs..?
Or is that the instruction of Mourinho to not venture forward?
Honestly, I really don't know....

Think back to Rio Ferdinand.
He had the ability to confidently bring the ball forward or make a decent pass forward, allowing our midfield to do their job further up the pitch, which in turn aids the strikers, as they are getting service and support.

Does our whole game go up a couple of notches simply by having faith that our CBs are competent to bring the ball forward?
Click to expand...

I think there is more to it than just the CB's distribution though, the front 4 have zero understanding, their movement is poor and that to me comes from the coaching side of things, they don't look like a set of players who are doing drills every day on patterns of play when we have the ball, the only one we seem to have coached is hit it long to Lukaku and the others make runs off him hoping he'll keep it and play them in or they can grab onto a second ball from a knock-down.

Likewise our fullbacks rarely ever overlap, it's like there is an invisible wall in front of them that restricts them from getting ahead of the wide attacker most of the time, this means we often lack width and it's easier for teams to corall un into the center of the pich and stifle the attack, to me this is the result of managerial instruction rather than on the players themselves, although I would concede that these days Valencia and Young probably lack the stamina to get up and down all game.

Our CB's aren't very good on the ball I agree, but I am not sure even if they were Mourinho would want them bringing the ball out, he likes to maintain a low block and prefers hitting the ball long and competing for it in the oppositions half so if we lose the contest then we still have everyone in shape to stop a counter, there's inherently too much risk for him in having a CB striding out with the ball too often.
 
KM said:
We need a new manager first and foremost. We can have Messi in our team and still he'd be lining up as an auxillary fullback in the setup.

Sanchez, Pogba are all looking half the players under his management, what's the guarantee that anymore shiny new objects will be successful here?
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This feels defeatist but I have to agree that if he can't get Pogba, Sanchez, Martial, Lukau, Mata and Rashford palying as a dynamic and cohesive unit, adding more expensive attackers isn't going to solve anything. Given we will be almost certainly stuck with Mourinho for another year I'd hope he just sticks to buying a CM and a couple of fullbacks, even if he doesn't let the latter attack the positions need upgrading due to the age of who we have there.
 
Ikon said:
I honestly don't know, I'm not completely sure about this....

Is the problem that our CB's are so unable to distribute the ball forward competently?

When I looked back at footage from the Sevilla game, I was shocked at the number of times our midfield (especially Pogba when he came on) were going back to our CBs and literally taking the ball off their toes to bring it forward.

What this then means (using Pogba as an example) is that he has the ball 30 or 40 yards further back to where you want him to be, from where he can start to hurt the opposition.
Pogba has 2 options from this deep position, he either tries to dribble the ball forward 40 yards, or he hoofs it long to the big fella up front.
Both options are doomed to failure and we lose possession.

The other consequence is that Lukaku is being isolated from our midfield, and that Sanchez, is himself coming back far too deep to collect the ball, where he was then doing the same as Pogba, ie. trying to dribble from far too deep and was being crowded out and losing possession.

Is the root cause, a lack of faith in the ball playing abilities of our CBs..?
Or is that the instruction of Mourinho to not venture forward?
Honestly, I really don't know....

Think back to Rio Ferdinand.
He had the ability to confidently bring the ball forward or make a decent pass forward, allowing our midfield to do their job further up the pitch, which in turn aids the strikers, as they are getting service and support.

Does our whole game go up a couple of notches simply by having faith that our CBs are competent to bring the ball forward?
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Go back and watch those matches again, even when we had rio - Carrick or scholes would come and get the ball of them. People are investing too much into this notion that attacking football comes from centre backs who can pass. It might be a small factor but it’s just that - a small factor. When you’re watching those old matches, watch how quickly we move the ball and how we utilize space, all the width of the pitch
 
Dante said:
I think many are missing the point when only talking about formations, player archetypes, and historical styles.

What every team 'needs' is the following:

Players who can contribute to the passing in midfield
Players who can get into the box
Players who can disrupt the lines of opposition teams
Players who can provide width
Players who can fill-in gaps in defence
Players who can retain possession
Players who can create chances

We're falling short in a lot of those areas, and many of the proposed purchases I'm seeing are failing to address them. Any players we buy or formations we play need to chosen in light of that.

(Sorry about the arrows, it's the only way I can think of to illustrate my point)

256d4iw.jpg


What we lack is adequate cover for Pogba, who's the only player we have who can make something happen.

With that in mind, what I would do is buy:
Savic
Fekir
Maybe a dm
Maybe a ballplaying rb
Maybe a ballplaying lb

Savic and Pogba like to drift wide and attack. Let those two give us our width. Yes we lack a controller in midfield, but that's not strictly necessary. Rather than having one player who makes 100 passes per match, we could just as effectively employ three midfielders who make 60 passes each per match.

Our forwards are all strikers. There's not a wide player among them, and certainly nobody who you could really on to make dangerous passes in dangerous areas. I'd buy Fekir to address that. Pogba/Savic behind would free everyone up to get into the box.

By having Pogba and Savic be the outlets on the wings (both are great crossers) the fullbacks would need to be good ballplayers who can step into midfield occasionally, but who DON'T need to be pseudo-wingers. I'd be happy enough with Lindelof and Tuanzebe there, but wouldn't be averse to new signings.

We're a team of technical giants. Asking for high pressing is unrealistic. Building a solid base with defined roles is the best way to go, in my opinion.
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You could drive a bus up the middle of the defense from what you’re proposing
 
golden_blunder said:
You could drive a bus up the middle of the defense from what you’re proposing
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It's more or less what we play now, except with two defenders at fullback (instead of two wingers who are average at covering their CBs) and Savic instead of McTominay. We'd be no less solid than we are now. The Chelsea team contained Makalele/Lampard/Ballack was fine, too.

The midfield alone would make it difficult to drive through the middle of our team. It'd be as technically gifted as any other in the world, but be bigger and stronger to boot. The fact that it contains two dribblers means that any opposition that tried to push high would get picked off fairly easily. A bit like when a team plays 2 up front, the threat from midfield would affect the way that sides setup against us.

Both Savic and Pogba are more than adept at playing defensively when required. It's not their natural inclination, but they can do it in big games. They would have the freedom to drift wide (which is what they do now, tbf), but it wouldn't be their primary positions. There's plenty of cover there. When one goes up, the other doesn't. Matic will always be there just in case.
 
golden_blunder said:
Ndidi? Hmmm not sure on that one. There’s not much creativity in that midfield. Isn’t Martins already pushing 30?

Also I suspect we will lose 2 keepers this summer; Romero and I’d be very surprised if DeGea doesn’t opt out
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I'm not entirely sure about Ndidi either, but i think we need a defensive battler in our midfield like Kante/Gueye/Niguez. Ndidi is very good in the defensive aspect, but his on the ball quality is maybe not at a perfect level. The realistic available alternatives are not great though, unless there is some truth to the rumours about PSG selling Verratti.
 
YouOnlyLiveTwice said:
I'm not entirely sure about Ndidi either, but i think we need a defensive battler in our midfield like Kante/Gueye/Niguez. Ndidi is very good in the defensive aspect, but his on the ball quality is maybe not at a perfect level. The realistic available alternatives are not great though, unless there is some truth to the rumours about PSG selling Verratti.
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I do wonder if veratti could calm down enough to play PL. I fear he’d be perpetually banned!
 
We need to decide once and for all is Shaw going to cut it, and if not, go all out for a top class left back.
We can't expect to rely on Young as first choice for another season. He should be squad back up in a few positions.

Valencia, I expect will still be first choice next season, so I can see one full back, and a couple of centre mids. Simply to replace Carrick and fellaini who have to be off. Herrera has to be a big question mark too, hasn't had anywhere near a good season, and has barely featured in the league.

I'm surprised people still think Jones would be sold. He's probably had his highest amount of starts in years
 
Sandikan said:
We need to decide once and for all is Shaw going to cut it, and if not, go all out for a top class left back.
We can't expect to rely on Young as first choice for another season. He should be squad back up in a few positions.

Valencia, I expect will still be first choice next season, so I can see one full back, and a couple of centre mids. Simply to replace Carrick and fellaini who have to be off. Herrera has to be a big question mark too, hasn't had anywhere near a good season, and has barely featured in the league.

I'm surprised people still think Jones would be sold. He's probably had his highest amount of starts in years
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Well, Rojo has just extended and Lindelof won't be sold after only 1 season imo. If we are truly in for a new CB, then someone will have to make way as 6 CB's are 1 or 2 too many. Jones is showing that he is still injury prone (not so different from our other CB's), but right now the signs suggests that he is the odd one out.
 
YouOnlyLiveTwice said:
Well, Rojo has just extended and Lindelof won't be sold after only 1 season imo. If we are truly in for a new CB, then someone will have to make way as 6 CB's are 1 or 2 too many. Jones is showing that he is still injury prone (not so different from our other CB's), but right now the signs suggests that he is the odd one out.
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The Rojo development is interesting. He's barely had a look in after recovering from injury.
Lindelof has to be picked very carefully in the right games, which is a worrying thing for a 30m centre back.

Smalling and Bailly seem a pretty solid combo, with the rest behind them.
For all Smalling's detractors, he isn't half good In the air when the ball is launched. Anyone outright replacing him at least has to have that, which is what made the Lindelof signings a curious one in my book, unless we were planning to play three at the back more.
 
Sandikan said:
The Rojo development is interesting. He's barely had a look in after recovering from injury.
Lindelof has to be picked very carefully in the right games, which is a worrying thing for a 30m centre back.

Smalling and Bailly seem a pretty solid combo, with the rest behind them.
For all Smalling's detractors, he isn't half good In the air when the ball is launched. Anyone outright replacing him at least has to have that, which is what made the Lindelof signings a curious one in my book, unless we were planning to play three at the back more.
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Yeah, Lindelof has been our worst defender this season. But will Mourinho give up on him after one season? Maybe, but it's unlikely.

I agree we need someone who has that aerial presence. He will also have to be good on the ball. Van Dijk was probably perfect, but we should be able to find someone who has both.
 
4 new additions to the squad,

LB,RB,CM,RW & a change in approach.
 
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