What do we still need? Aka The never ending story

sullydnl said:






For the love of god, listen to Ralph.
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I really really like him. Whatever you think of him as a manager he clearly can see what is wrong and how to improve it from a personnel point of view.

I couldn’t care less if we’re getting “smaller” named players. If the attitude is right and the talent is there go for it.
 
The more I think about it the happier I’d be with something like:

DM - Kamara/Tchouameni
CM - Neves
RW - Antony/Bowen
ST - David/Nkunku/Gakpo

I don’t think any of them would command ridiculous fees striker is harder to decide on but I think Gakpo could be a wildcard here they all strike me as players suited to higher intensity football regardless.
 
Out
Jones
Bailly
Mata
Matic
Pogba
Lingard
Martial

IN
Kounde
Tchouameni
Tielemens
Antony
 
sullydnl said:






For the love of god, listen to Ralph.
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He's not saying anything that hasn't been discussed on here for years now. I've always said the club should target players who are on the cusp of being top players. And I've repeated that for years.

The club's main problem is a simple one, and that is that they've allowed the managers post Fergie to sign players with the aid of their own personal recruitment staff, which is a recruitment team that is very small in number and nowhere near as equipped to run a thorough/detailed process on new recruits in comparison to the club's own recruitment department, which is very large. I don't include Moyes and LVG in that because they were at the club at a time when the club was developing the recruitment side.

It seems like the larger party is about to assume control and also select the head coach. So let's see how things develop because that's how the top teams operate at home and abroad.
 
Adnan said:
He's not saying anything that hasn't been discussed on here for years now. I've always said the club should target players who are on the cusp of being top players. And I've repeated that for years.

The club's main problem is a simple one, and that is that they've allowed the managers post Fergie to sign players with the aid of their own personal recruitment staff, which is a recruitment team that is very small in number and nowhere near as equipped to run a thorough/detailed process on new recruits in comparison to the club's own recruitment department, which is very large. I don't include Moyes and LVG in that because they were at the club at a time when the club was developing the recruitment side.

It seems like the larger party is about to assume control and also select the head coach. So let's see how things develop because that's how the top teams operate at home and abroad.
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I said this in another thread but whatever you think of Ragnick as a manager he clearly understands what is required for this rebuild. Even if some of our fans don’t.

Find the above average young players who have the potential physical and technical qualities and are willing to work and learn, give them clear roles and responsibilities within a system, coach them well into said predetermined system and watch the football improve.

It’s worrying that anyone with a background in statistical analysis and access to footballing data could do a better job than our previous recruitment team who have too often now gone for names.
 
sullydnl said:






For the love of god, listen to Ralph.
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Can only hope they listen to him but not going to hold my breath. Recruitment has been dreadful and too many of people who’ve been involved in that are still at the club.

Hopefully RR and new manager can steer us in new direction, we do need players with qualities he described and we need a lot of players so cheaper price tags and wages are also important. It’s also imperative we are more decisive and less nostalgic and scared letting players go. We need 4-5 signings this summer as a starting point.
 
sullydnl said:






For the love of god, listen to Ralph.
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In another word, cultural reboot.

Question is this term had been touted around for so long, and deceptively not only we tried to fix it, but let it become a worse issue.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
I said this in another thread but whatever you think of Ragnick as a manager he clearly understands what is required for this rebuild. Even if some of our fans don’t.

Find the above average young players who have the potential physical and technical qualities and are willing to work and learn, give them clear roles and responsibilities within a system, coach them well into said predetermined system and watch the football improve.

It’s worrying that anyone with a background in statistical analysis and access to footballing data could do a better job than our previous recruitment team who have too often now gone for names.
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I agree with you and I've on many occasions said that we should bring in a coach with a clear idea on how he wants to play and then sign players for his way of playing the game.

And what Rangnick is saying is a very simple concept, which I've discussed on here on many occasions. And that is to build a team around a guiding principle, which involves signing mostly young players who are either showing immense promise as 16-17 years old or signing young players who are showing immense potential as 18-21 year olds. And there's quite a few other clubs doing similar.

We have allowed the manager to sign players even when it has been reported that those same players were vetoed by the club's recruitment staff sitting on the transfer committee. This is our problem imo.
 
Full backs who can cross, in a combined 92 appearances, our fullbacks have eight G+A.

Dalot and AWB have ZERO in 46 matches.
 
Adnan said:
I agree with you and I've on many occasions said that we should bring in a coach with a clear idea on how he wants to play and then sign players for his way of playing the game.

And what Rangnick is saying is a very simple concept, which I've discussed on here on many occasions. And that is to build a team around a guiding principle, which involves signing mostly young players who are either showing immense promise as 16-17 years old or signing young players who are showing immense potential as 18-21 year olds. And there's quite a few other clubs doing similar.

We have allowed the manager to sign players even when it has been reported that those same players were vetoed by the club's recruitment staff sitting on the transfer committee. This is our problem imo.
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Part of our problem has been system changes and then players from previous systems not being suited to the new one.
  1. Moyes - Crossy ball (but not the good cut back kind)
  2. LVG - Possession(without the attack)
  3. Mourinho - Cautious but solid (in hindsight a product of a bygone era of the PL)
  4. Ole - Counter attack (and slow conversion to higher press only to then add a 37 year old forward into the mix)
 
BenitoSTARR said:
Part of our problem has been system changes and then players from previous systems not being suited to the new one.
  1. Moyes - Crossy ball (but not the good cut back kind)
  2. LVG - Possession(without the attack)
  3. Mourinho - Cautious but solid (in hindsight a product of a bygone era of the PL)
  4. Ole - Counter attack (and slow conversion to higher press only to then add a 37 year old forward into the mix)
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Tbh with you system changes aren't difficult to adapt to if the recruitment is of a high enough level. Because good players can adapt to different approaches.
 
What we clearly need is about 6 months on a football field with a good coach. I don't blame Rangnick for how disjointed things are right now, they have had 5 years without any kind of attacking structure, that is going to take probably take a couple of seasons to sort out.
 
Adnan said:
Tbh with you system changes aren't difficult to adapt to if the recruitment is of a high enough level. Because good players can adapt to different approaches.
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It’s not too much of an issue if the systems are loosely related but when you’re flicking through them every two years you constantly have to rebuild and re adapt and that requires a degree of flexibility most players don’t have.

I’d argue it’s equally as damaging in our case that we haven’t got a single player in our squad who has been brought through in their formative footballing years with one key way of playing that they can develop moving into our first team. For example how is someone emerging in the LVG era supposed to translate the slow ponderous build up into a gegenpress with ease?

The philosophies of previous managers are all fighting one another and so we have a Frankenstein’s monster of a squad with talented individuals suited to the styles of the manager who bought them but now no longer suited to the direction the team needs to move.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
It’s not too much of an issue if the systems are loosely related but when you’re flicking through them every two years you constantly have to rebuild and re adapt and that requires a degree of flexibility most players don’t have.

I’d argue it’s equally as damaging in our case that we haven’t got a single player in our squad who has been brought through in their formative footballing years with one key way of playing that they can develop moving into our first team. For example how is someone emerging in the LVG era supposed to translate the slow ponderous build up into a gegenpress with ease?

The philosophies of previous managers are all fighting one another and so we have a Frankenstein’s monster of a squad with talented individuals suited to the styles of the manager who bought them but now no longer suited to the direction the team needs to move.
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I agree mostly with what you're saying. But this is what happens when a club that has been relying on the manager (Fergie) to control everything on the football side of the club, that then gets put into a position where they have to sack the manager who is controlling the football side of the club. And they then realise that they don't have a fail safe like other big clubs who have modernised and developed recruitment departments that can step in and take control of the direction of the club when it comes to the football side of the club.

We never had a recruitment department that was even comparable to Leicester City in the modern game until 2018, according to reports.

LVG was at Bayern and after he was fired, Jupp Heynckes in a little over a year extinguished the threat of Klopp and Dortmund and made Bayern a very dominant team both domestically and in Europe. But he did that by adding to the good work that Van Gaal had already done which created the foundation for the head coaches that would come after him. And they could do that because they had a football department headed by people who had the power to make decisions independently on the football side of the club. We never had that sort of setup until 2018 and you could say even up until this day.
 
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Adnan said:
I agree mostly with what you're saying. But this is what happens when a club that has been relying on the manager (Fergie) to control everything on the football side of the club, that then gets put into a position where they have to sack the manager who is controlling the football side of the club. And they then realise that they don't have a fail safe like other big clubs who have modernised and developed recruitment departments that can step in and take control of the direction of the club when it comes to the football side of the club. We never had a recruitment department that was even comparable to Leicester City in the modern game until 2018, according to reports.

LVG was at Bayern and after he was fired, Jupp Heynckes in a little over a year extinguished the threat of Klopp and Dortmund and made Bayern a very dominant team both domestically and in Europe. But he did that by adding to the good work that Van Gaal had already done which created the foundation for the head coaches that would come after him. And they could do that because they had a football department headed by people who had the power to make decisions independently on the football side of the club. We never had that sort of setup until 2018 and you could say even up until this day.
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I see what you mean with regards to systems and Bayern is a great example of that.

I would agree with everything else.
 
Keep Hearing that Declan Rice and Kane are on the list, scrap it, we can't afford to spend upwards of 200 on 2 players.

get rid of expiring/sell deadwood

Palhinha
Haidara
Lamptey
Nunez/Jonathan David
Antony
Timber

all excellent players, who would improve us massively, probably enough to get into champions league with the right managerial appointment.

once we've got back to a champions league level team we can then start adding 100m players to try and push us over to title winners.

De Gea
Lamptey Varane Timber Shaw
Palhinha
Bruno Haidara
Antony Nunez Sancho

Henderson - Dependind on managers preference could be 1st choice
Maguire
Dalot
Fred
Rashford
McTominay
Garner
Hannibal
DVB

Watch us chase Kane and Rice all summer though
 
What do we need is to set our structures right, to identify with the new manager which style of football we are going to play and what kind of players do we want.

Roy Keane another day said that in his time there was no such thing as a "style of football", but in his time it was different, unpopular or not, United we're the best and richest club and could easily bring the best British talents and talents abroad with also breaking few transfer record fees in time, facing a first real market competitor when Abramovich came to buy Chelsea. Ferguson was always trying to make sure that we have the "best in the class" players: Keane, Ferdinand, Rooney, etc. Today, the picture changed, clubs are richer and the approach to a football game is a lot different and we are seemingly way behind competitors in stadium and training facilities, technology and our approach to being a successful club again.

Having no clear picture of what kind of football we wanted to play to gain that success, we had such weird managers which resulted in having the most awkward Manchester United team ever. It also cost the club a lot of money because having the resources that we have and not having a clear understanding of what kind of player we are searching for is a deadly combination that puts us in an unlikely position of negotiating let alone bargaining with fees and we massively overpaid average players and players who we can only guess what we will get from them. Also, that "approach" seemed to waste our scouting department massively.
That kind of situation doesn't help academy talents on the verge of promotion either as we should have a style that youth teams would also play and to smoothly and naturally promote the most gifted ones. God forgive me, but if it is what it takes to, I'll be ok with having no European football if that means our board would be wiser in the market.

To write players' names and hope that they will be exactly what we need it's a little bit tough to do, having no permanent manager appointed, but what I hope for is that club will listen to Ralf, and is so refreshing to see his opinions of what club need to do. My personal most favorite among those statements is when he said something like he always tries to sign a player that is hungry, determined and with no big contracts in the past. Hope our approach to a football game and the market change with Ralf, and that one day we will remove the verb "still" from the thread name as we are currently stuck in limbo, trying to buy success quickly and always falling in the same traps..
 
Lux Thunder said:
What do we need is to set our structures right, to identify with the new manager which style of football we are going to play and what kind of players do we want.

Roy Keane another day said that in his time there was no such thing as a "style of football", but in his time it was different, unpopular or not, United we're the best and richest club and could easily bring the best British talents and talents abroad with also breaking few transfer record fees in time, facing a first real market competitor when Abramovich came to buy Chelsea. Ferguson was always trying to make sure that we have the "best in the class" players: Keane, Ferdinand, Rooney, etc. Today, the picture changed, clubs are richer and the approach to a football game is a lot different and we are seemingly way behind competitors in stadium and training facilities, technology and our approach to being a successful club again.

Having no clear picture of what kind of football we wanted to play to gain that success, we had such weird managers which resulted in having the most awkward Manchester United team ever. It also cost the club a lot of money because having the resources that we have and not having a clear understanding of what kind of player we are searching for is a deadly combination that puts us in an unlikely position of negotiating let alone bargaining with fees and we massively overpaid average players and players who we can only guess what we will get from them. Also, that "approach" seemed to waste our scouting department massively.
That kind of situation doesn't help academy talents on the verge of promotion either as we should have a style that youth teams would also play and to smoothly and naturally promote the most gifted ones. God forgive me, but if it is what it takes to, I'll be ok with having no European football if that means our board would be wiser in the market.

To write players' names and hope that they will be exactly what we need it's a little bit tough to do, having no permanent manager appointed, but what I hope for is that club will listen to Ralf, and is so refreshing to see his opinions of what club need to do. My personal most favorite among those statements is when he said something like he always tries to sign a player that is hungry, determined and with no big contracts in the past. Hope our approach to a football game and the market change with Ralf, and that one day we will remove the verb "still" from the thread name as we are currently stuck in limbo, trying to buy success quickly and always falling in the same traps..
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Posts like this restore my faith in the newbies @Damien someone like this please and get this person promoted!
 
We need a miracle. The first task should be finding buyers for all our deadwood players. That should add a bit onto our transfer budget and then we need to buy not just quality players but players that are determined and hungry for success. Our issue over the past few years has been signing big name players just for commercial reasons. There the players who are all in it for money. We need to change that approach. Give the manager what he needs to get us challenging. Let him buy his first choice targets who fit into his style of play. Lay down some strict rules to players… one being focus more on your football then social media!
 
What do we still need? New owners.

There's no more hope left now under this regime. Erik Ten Hag will only fail like his predecessors have done.
 
Ralf and ten Hag would be a very good start.

It will then take several years to build a squad that can compete for the PL or the CL title. I do not think we have the money to buy 5-6 new players this summer since the 4-6 players leaving won't generate any income.
 


Four assists per season from your marquee #10 who cost £50m and people want him here.

The most overrated player in the league.
 
We can only hope the club listens to Ralf because we need to extend our recruitment beyond the obvious names. Nunez, Antony, Nkunku, Kamara, Haidara etc., all players who could walk into our starting 11 and fairly attainable. We won’t be dining at the big club table for a few years until we sort ourselves out, so we need to take some risks but also uncover some gems in the market that are off the radar. That is how Liverpool did it. The signings of Mane, Robertson and Salah, players who were not heralded or highly recruited by the other big clubs, but provided the platform to make big signings later. The next 3 summer windows are going to be massive (obviously) and we can’t afford to feck it up.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
Four assists per season from your marquee #10 who cost £50m and people want him here.

The most overrated player in the league.
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Yup, Richarlison's average and Calvert Lewin is much, much worse.

It's not a perfect metric, but I've always thought that one of the best ways to tell how good a player is, is to see what their own team's supporters think of them. They watch them 40+ times a season after all.

Everton forums all think Calvert Lewin is terrible, even back when he was having his brief purple patch. Richarlison, they praise his work-rate but think he's mediocre otherwise. Both have been linked with big money moves here at one point or another and come with weirdly positive reputations from people who don't watch them much.
 
After going on Saturday then will revise it to us needing at least seven first XI

GK
RB
LB
DM
CM
RW
ST
 
BenitoSTARR said:
The more I think about it the happier I’d be with something like:

DM - Kamara/Tchouameni
CM - Neves
RW - Antony/Bowen
ST - David/Nkunku/Gakpo

I don’t think any of them would command ridiculous fees striker is harder to decide on but I think Gakpo could be a wildcard here they all strike me as players suited to higher intensity football regardless.
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Good list, but we definitely need a new Right Back.

And I also think we need a new GK.
 
Becks00 said:
I don't know why people keep saying we need a center back. I just don't see it. No manager is going to bench all of Varane, Lindelof and Maguire next season and they are all going to be here next season. Think focus should be more on the midfield and attacking areas. If we are going to do anything in defence, then the full back areas should take priority, especially RB.
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Because they’ve all been prone to injuries this season and all go through ‘rollercoaster’ form
 
AdNani said:
Keep Hearing that Declan Rice and Kane are on the list, scrap it, we can't afford to spend upwards of 200 on 2 players.

get rid of expiring/sell deadwood

Palhinha
Haidara
Lamptey
Nunez/Jonathan David
Antony
Timber

all excellent players, who would improve us massively, probably enough to get into champions league with the right managerial appointment.

once we've got back to a champions league level team we can then start adding 100m players to try and push us over to title winners.

De Gea
Lamptey Varane Timber Shaw
Palhinha
Bruno Haidara
Antony Nunez Sancho

Henderson - Dependind on managers preference could be 1st choice
Maguire
Dalot
Fred
Rashford
McTominay
Garner
Hannibal
DVB

Watch us chase Kane and Rice all summer though
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I don’t get the obsession with lamptey. He’s a rwb and there’s better around
 
I don't think we are as far away as people think, we just need a new keeper, 2 new full backs, at least one centre half a defensive mid, a creative mid, a new winger and a centre forward, easy peasy jobs a goodun.
 
sullydnl said:






For the love of god, listen to Ralph.
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he has been really honest about the Man Utd players. It is up to the board. Ok, let's give new 5 year contract to Rashford and Shaw. Joke aside it is up to the DOF and the upper management. There is nothing the head coach can do on this issue. All these players has long and fat contract to protect them.
 
re these contract extensions, shouldn't we wait for the new manager to come in and see what he wants. I'm not a huge fan of Shaws, but there are other priorities to address first. But if we give a new extension to Fred, that's 2 mids in recent weeks who can't keep possession signed up for the forseeable. If the new manager wants a possession based game, Fred and Bruno aren't your men for that.
 
croadyman said:
Why is Shaw's contract being extended, he had a right pop at the Utd atmosphere on England duty
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I am beginning to think that there is some form of racket going on at United between senior figures handing out these brain dead contracts and these players. What has Luke Shaw done to earn a new deal, really? We should be dumping his unambitious arse out on the kerb and moving on to someone hungry and more committed to their craft.

Whatever rebuild is being done its already being sabotaged before its begun. I mean a player shits on the club whilst on international duty, in the midst of one of his worst seasons and he comes back to the club and ia rewarded with a new contract! Its beyond shocking, its suspicious.

The new manager is effectively having his hands tied behind his back before he's even stepped into the building.
 
There are so many areas needing attention, we'll need to prioritize.

1st Priority will be to protect our defence w a tackling + interception machine, good aerially (Replace Matic):

Tchouameni / Palhinha

2nd Priority we need an outlet on the right desperately (Replace Greenwood):

Antony

3rd Priority we need to progress the ball better from the right (Replace Dalot/AWB):

Timber

4th Priority we need a midfielder tidy under pressure, & able to transition quickly via long balls (Replace Pogba):

Ruiz / Kamara

DM, RW, RB, DLP are most pressing imo.

Next season, we can address GK, CB, ST etc
 
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sideshow_bob said:
There are so many areas needing attention, we'll need to prioritize.

1st Priority will be to protect our defence w a tackling + interception machine, good aerially (Replace Matic):

Tchouameni

2nd Priority we need an outlet on the right desperately (Replace Greenwood):

Antony

3rd Priority we need to progress the ball better from the right (Replace Dalot/AWB):

Timber

4th Priority we need a midfielder tidy under pressure, & able to transition quickly via long balls (Replace Pogba):

Ruiz

DM, RW, RB, DLP are most pressing imo.

Next season, we can address GK, CB, ST etc
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Striker has to be in the priorities this summer
 
croadyman said:
Striker has to be in the priorities this summer
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Problem is sorting that position out is gonna be costly & will wipe out most of our budget.

Also, it doesn't solve RR's main assessment of our team i.e. lack of aggression

Plus, there's not much to choose from too at the moment in the striker department

Who's your pick anyways for striker?
 
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