We've got a Top 4 squad...

When I opened up this thread I thought it was created a few seasons ago.

A top 4 squad doesn't allow themselves to get knocked out of the cup midweek and conceded 4 goals to average Tottenham side and followed it up by losing 3-0 at home to average Bournemouth.

The soon to be champions shipped three goals to Spurs yesterday?

Average Bournemouth side but sitting 5th in the table and are much better than us currently?

Our squad is dirt, but too many people on this site are living in a fantasyland stuck in the past.
 
Forrest are top 4, I reckon Nuno would take our squad over theirs. Bournemouth are 5th, Villa are 6th. There’s no way those squads are better than ours.

I watched Spurs vs Scousers earlier, Liverpool are a well oiled machine but man for man, I just don’t think there’s that many who aren’t similar ability, ignoring the obvious ones in Salah and VVD which is why they’re top of the league.

My point is, the players are massively underperforming and are far better than they’re showing, we don’t need a mass overhaul imo, we just need our players to raise their games 10% and we’ll be there or thereabouts.

The easiest one to point to is Licha for me, he’s woeful at the moment, but he looked one of the best defenders in the league when he first came in. Mainoo is another one, looked like a world beater and the whole nation was asking for him to play in the euros and we were crying out for a partner for him. I could reference others, but fundamentally the point is the same, just raise our bloody game!
How many matches/years will it take for you to realize how bad these players are. How can you honestly think our squad is better than Villa's? It's baffling.
 
The soon to be champions shipped three goals to Spurs yesterday?

Average Bournemouth side but sitting 5th in the table and are much better than us currently?

Our squad is dirt, but too many people on this site are living in a fantasyland stuck in the past.
Racing into a 5-1 lead and then letting in a couple through sheer complacency is not the same as what happened in our match.

Why would you even make that comparison? :lol:
 
I think we are missing some caveats when it comes to assessing the squad. Form and adapting to new methods has got to count for something. Mainoo looked England's most talented midfielder in the Summer - he hasn't suddenly turned shit.

We've got players who aren't playing as they can as they get used to a new system but were playing better under Ten Hag

Garnacho
Mainoo
Dalot

We've got players who've improved in new system

Hojlund
Mazraoui
Ugarte
Bruno


Players who have largely done well this season
Onana
Diallo


Players we can't rely on due to ability/injury/availability
Malacia
Mount
Shaw
Zirkzee
Rashford
Antony


We've got the too old/not athletic enough and need moved on

Casemiro
Ericksen
Evans
Lindelof

that leaves Maguire who could be a decent squad player, Yoro who looks bright and De Ligt who I haven't made my mind up about but seems decent

The hope is the first group improve, the second and third maintain/improve and we can do something about the injured/unavailable/past it groups in the next 2 windows. Most of our top earners seem to be in those bottom two groups too. it will likely take 2 years to sort out those last 2 categories though.
 
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I find this insistency that we have a decent squad really baffling... we've got one of the worst front lines for a 'top' team in Europe with no established striker and our central midfield is non-existent bar Ugarte. We have essentially no left back and a massive over-reliance on raw talent. All that, plus we have the mental fortitude of a fieldmouse + a captain who completely loses it when things are going against us.
 
Praying we can get a top CF and a LWB in the January window.
Hopefully sell Rashford and 1 or 2 others to fund it.
The squad on paper is strong, they need to raise their effort and quality and cut out the constant mistakes.
 
There's definitely some quality players in there, but a lack of a top class centre forward, strong wing backs and trying to shoehorn players into a number 10 role are hige challenges.

Yeah I would agree.

Although I do think yesterday he got his selection a bit wrong. We started three slow players up top. If we had started hojlund with Bruno and amad or zirkzee with garnacho as one of the 10s I think that would have been better.

I alo thought that yesterday when Bruno was playing as a ten he was totally wasted, he had to make runs out to the wings but hasn't got the pace or skill to beat players so every time he got the ball he had to stop and it slowed the attack down (not that we were attacking with much pace with zirkzee and amad our other options). It renders him useless. He needs to be in the middle of he is going to play.
 
I clicked the thread and thought it had been written at the start of the season. Since it's from yesterday I'm guessing it's pure engagement farming from the OP.
 
Newbie here, Longtime Lurker.

Went to OT yesterday. Saw my first Amorim United. I worry for Onana more than anyone in that 11. He's so nervy the backline look terrified. I'd rather him punt it to the centre spot.

My god, our corners are AWFUL. Both defending and taking. We can't clear the first man!

For what it's worth, Rasmus, Gnashers, Bruno and Amad should have put away their chances. On a different day it ain't a 3 nil embarrassment

IMHO - We have the right man in charge. Replace Nana, Dalot and [controverially] Bruno. Get Gnashers and Rasmus scoring again and you have a winning 11. Zirksee is bobins btw.
 
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Praying we can get a top CF and a LWB in the January window.
Hopefully sell Rashford and 1 or 2 others to fund it.
The squad on paper is strong, they need to raise their effort and quality and cut out the constant mistakes.
How can a squad that needs to raise its effort; quality, and makes constant mistakes be strong?
 
Neville was spot on yesterday in his post match analysis. A big overhaul is needed. Players that have been here for more than three years need to be looked at closely and most of them moved on. Simply not working with and for them.
 
Impossible mission. I think we have only Bruno, well not in his current form but with better teammates, in a better team he could shine again. The rest never. If i have a look at 12 teams above us on the table, maybe Fulham and Brentford have weaker squads. The other 10 are definitely stronger. Having said that, Fulham is unbeaten in the last 5 rounds, while we have 3 losses... Stating that we have a top4 squad is absolutely mad, sorry. Not sure if we have a top10 squad.
Amad would probably make the Liverpool , City , Chelsea , Arsenal squad.
It's not a comment on Bruno's talent but none of those teams are setup for a player like him. He could play well for those teams but again won't make the squad. Where would you fit him in there in the first place?
 
I clicked the thread and thought it had been written at the start of the season. Since it's from yesterday I'm guessing it's pure engagement farming from the OP.
Engagement farming, not heard that before but no it’s not, I do like the term though.

As I said elsewhere, our squad is better than it’s showing, no way we’re this poor and I can’t accept we’re a bottom third team. If that’s the case and we finish in the top half this season, we should all be happy that we’re punching above our weight. Not a single poster would have said that at the start of the season, we were all optimistic about our chances of top 4 (or at least top 6).

We need more quality, every team does, but we need more application and effort on the pitch first and foremost.
 
Amorim says it the best about effort. Fans wants to see effort but unfortunately, these players will only show effort once we fall behind. The team will have brief spell on dominating the game chasing the equaliser. Once the half time whistle blows, all the intensity is gone in the 2nd half. Bang 0-2, we find ourselves a hole that we are able to climb out and lose the game. I find it amusing that the script can be written week after week where nothing changes.
 
Newbie here, Longtime Lurker.

Went to OT yesterday. Saw my first Amorim United. I worry for Onana more than anyone in that 11. He's so nervy the backline look terrified. I'd rather him punt it to the centre spot.

My god, our corners are AWFUL. Both defending and taking. We can't clear the first man!

For what it's worth, Rasmus, Gnashers, Bruno and Amad should have put away their chances. On a different day it ain't a 3 nil embarrassment

IMHO - We have the right man in charge. Replace Nana, Dalot and [controverially] Bruno. Get Gnashers and Rasmus scoring again and you have a winning 11. Zirksee is bobins btw.
Welcome!

The overall feeling here is that because Amorim hasn't had much time and the players are mediocre, these sort of embarassments are unavoidable. But I feel it's easy to hold on to this attitude sitting comfortably at home.

What's it like for you as a matchgoing fan at the moment? Do you turn up with no expectations of good football and if it happens, then great otherwise, it's just what you expected anyway.
 
Facts :

Our main striker has 2 goals in the premier league. Rashford has 4 but posters dont want him to play and want him sold. Our alternate has 3 league goals but plays worse than our main striker

Weve conceded 22 goals in 17 games. Not a tight ship. 30+% of them are from corners and crosses from set pieces.

Looking at the players and what they were doing at their previous clubs before we signed them, yes on paper we have a very good squad.

On the pitch and in our shirt we see different to that. The performances arent there.
 
Our defence - can be potential top 4

Our midfield - 6-10th position

Our attack - 10- 15th position

Our GK - I don't know, constantly changes....

Take the red tinted glass off
The reality

Defense 6-10th
Midfield 10-15th
Attack10-15th
Onana -10 plus

Out of the notable players we signed since Ole took charge, what PL clubs were in for them?
Bruno - we had a clean run
Maguire - clean run
AWB - clean run (gone)
Donny - clean run (gone)

Out of ETH's signings, I can only think of Martinez and Yoro who had other clubs interested.
 
There are regular posters here saying we are in the right position for our squad at 13th.

It is just an overreaction to try to defend a new manager. The reality is we need to perform better and that the manager is responsible for that and needs to solve they problem, and quite quickly. People like the manager and don't want to face that reality.

We have seen the same thing over and over with other managers. People said ole had to win the league with his squad in his final season, then they were suddenly all deadwood.

Hopefully Amorim improves the team by his coaching, which is his only job, and then this all becomes a moot point.
I know it’s Christmas, but he’s not Jesus and doesn’t do miracles

You can’t polish a turd
 
I agree that we have a squad that should be finishing somewhere between 4th and 6th on paper.

However, there are issues, obviously. Some are widely known, some are not IMO.

-The squad is a bit of a mish-mash of different players due to the differing philosophies of our past managers. That has especially became evident with Amorim coming in IMO compared to previous managerial changes.

-The physical flooring is nowhere near good enough, both in the defense and midfield. I think this might be the biggest obstacle preventing us from being able to exert more control over games. It's why we don't win enough ground and aerial duels, and also why we concede a lot of goals from spot kicks.

-A lot of the players seem emotionally weak and lose their minds as soon as things start going bad.

-We often don't platform our best players correctly and then the fanbase acts surprised why they aren't doing as well as at their previous club. Although, it has gotten better under Amorim IMO and this is one of the issues that's going to be solved eventually. But it has happened way too many times in the past:

Maguire misused by everyone after Ole

Pogba being played in a double pivot

Rashford being told to hug the touchline and stay deep under ETH

Onana under ETH

Martínez played as a wide CB both in a back 4 and back 3

ETH using Zirkzee as a target man instead of a facilitating, deeper "9.5"

Honestly I could list 90% of the squad under ETH so I won't go on, but you get what I mean.
 
I would take Maz, as he reminds me a lot of Tomiyasu. Good, solid and versatile with a good work ethic and you know you'd get a solid performance with no issues. And I would take De Ligt as back up, as he's a step above Kiwior. And I would take Amad off the bench, I genuinely believe the boy can be a star if he doesn't go the Rashford way. That's about it. Bruno is not good enough at all for a high pressing possession system and his attitude stinks.

Bruno would take Arsenal up a level. The likes of Saka and Martinelli would finally be able to feast off of some creativity in the final third. Odegaard would be pushed back to an #8 or benched.
 
The soon to be champions shipped three goals to Spurs yesterday?

Average Bournemouth side but sitting 5th in the table and are much better than us currently?

Our squad is dirt, but too many people on this site are living in a fantasyland stuck in the past.
The champions elect were 5-1 ahead eased off/cleared the bench by the time that average and poorly managed Spurs got two consolation goals. United on the other hand found themselves 3-0 behind.

Had United won yesterday they would be level on points with Bournemouth ahead of them in the table on scoring difference.

Some in the media was hyping them up yesterday and again today in truth along with United they were bang average before they got that lucky free kick for the first goal yesterday. And again were doing next to nothing before they were gifted a penalty to go 2-0 ahead. 13 goals in 8 away matches they had scored this season no 4 top squad allows themselves to lose to them 3-0 at home for a second season in a row is the reality for anyone living in fantasyland.
 
Looking that way to be honest. Physically on another level.
I think this is the primary differentiator between us and most of the sides above us.

I believe the technical level of the team is generally strong. I wouldn't want to give an exact ranking but I'm fairly confident in saying that on a technical level our squad is comfortably within the top half of the Premier League. As yourself and others have said, though, the baseline physical level of the team is so far from good enough and I think there's probably a case to be made that in this respect we have one of the worst squads in the Premier League.

Of all the outfield players in our squad right now, I'd say the only ones who stand out as being either average or above in the league for their position on a purely physical level are Dalot, De Ligt, Ugarte, Hojlund and Fernandes. I think there are others where you'd say their physical attributes are good enough because they have a very strong technical level on top of that (Amad and Mazraoui are the obvious examples), but there are so many others who have clear physical weaknesses that even weaker opponents can exploit relatively easily and that's not conducive to sustained success in the Premier League.

I think Ten Hag and Murtough collectively bear a lot of responsibility for this. Here's a list of all the outfield players we signed with Ten Hag as a manager, with those with clear physical weaknesses to the extent that it causes issues highlighted in bold with explanations in brackets and loan players marked with an asterisk:

  • Malacia (Injury set-back but also pretty tiny even for a wide player)
  • Eriksen (Obvious - lacks the speed, strength and stamina of the average central midfielder in the Premier League)
  • Martinez (Obviously short for a centre back but is also not very quick or agile)
  • Casemiro (Lacks pace and agility and is not the physical force he once was)
  • Antony (Lacks the pace to beat the average full-back in the Premier League and isn't capable of compromising for it with his technical level)
  • Weghorst* (Lacks pace)
  • Sabitzer*
  • Mount (Barely ever fit)
  • Evans (Obvious - lacks pace and agility at this point in his career)
  • Hojlund
  • Amrabat*
  • Reguilon*
  • Zirkzee
  • Yoro
  • Mazraoui
  • De Ligt
  • Ugarte
That's pretty staggering really. Up until this summer, I think it's fair to say that eight of the twelve outfield players we brought in had clear physical weaknesses that either leave the player open to being exploited in the defensive phase or much easier to nullify when we're attacking. What's even worse is that three of the four players I identified as not having these issues were loans! I really don't think I'm being overly harsh here either - if anything, I imagine some users might also want to put Zirkzee in bold due to his lack of pace. I haven't myself since I'm not entirely convinced that Zirkzee's issues so far have come from a lack of physicality but I at least think there's an argument to be made there.

Unfortunately, the story doesn't improve too much when you consider the rest of the current squad either. Shaw, like Mount, is always injured. Lindelof is really weak for a Premier League centre back. Maguire's lack of agility and pace leave him vulnerable against certain opponents, although I do think this is a lesser issue in the current system. And for as good as he is technically, Mainoo just isn't there yet on the physical level.

It's a huge problem. Any new signings we make either in January or next summer need to be made with this in mind, because the baseline physical level of the squad needs to be considerably better if we want to win games consistently.
 
The players are better than Amorim's system is making them look, yes. But a top 4 squad, nope.
 
How many matches/years will it take for you to realize how bad these players are. How can you honestly think our squad is better than Villa's? It's baffling.

You seem to be conflating the quality of individual players with the ability of individual dual players to play as a galvanized team. We have plenty of individual quality but lack the latter piece which is why seemingly lesser sides are outperforming us at the moment.

Once Amorim corrects this, we will be among the top four in terms of performance quality, even if we don’t wind up making the top four this season.
 
I think this is the primary differentiator between us and most of the sides above us.

I believe the technical level of the team is generally strong. I wouldn't want to give an exact ranking but I'm fairly confident in saying that on a technical level our squad is comfortably within the top half of the Premier League. As yourself and others have said, though, the baseline physical level of the team is so far from good enough and I think there's probably a case to be made that in this respect we have one of the worst squads in the Premier League.

Of all the outfield players in our squad right now, I'd say the only ones who stand out as being either average or above in the league for their position on a purely physical level are Dalot, De Ligt, Ugarte, Hojlund and Fernandes. I think there are others where you'd say their physical attributes are good enough because they have a very strong technical level on top of that (Amad and Mazraoui are the obvious examples), but there are so many others who have clear physical weaknesses that even weaker opponents can exploit relatively easily and that's not conducive to sustained success in the Premier League.

I think Ten Hag and Murtough collectively bear a lot of responsibility for this. Here's a list of all the outfield players we signed with Ten Hag as a manager, with those with clear physical weaknesses to the extent that it causes issues highlighted in bold with explanations in brackets and loan players marked with an asterisk:

  • Malacia (Injury set-back but also pretty tiny even for a wide player)
  • Eriksen (Obvious - lacks the speed, strength and stamina of the average central midfielder in the Premier League)
  • Martinez (Obviously short for a centre back but is also not very quick or agile)
  • Casemiro (Lacks pace and agility and is not the physical force he once was)
  • Antony (Lacks the pace to beat the average full-back in the Premier League and isn't capable of compromising for it with his technical level)
  • Weghorst* (Lacks pace)
  • Sabitzer*
  • Mount (Barely ever fit)
  • Evans (Obvious - lacks pace and agility at this point in his career)
  • Hojlund
  • Amrabat*
  • Reguilon*
  • Zirkzee
  • Yoro
  • Mazraoui
  • De Ligt
  • Ugarte
That's pretty staggering really. Up until this summer, I think it's fair to say that eight of the twelve outfield players we brought in had clear physical weaknesses that either leave the player open to being exploited in the defensive phase or much easier to nullify when we're attacking. What's even worse is that three of the four players I identified as not having these issues were loans! I really don't think I'm being overly harsh here either - if anything, I imagine some users might also want to put Zirkzee in bold due to his lack of pace. I haven't myself since I'm not entirely convinced that Zirkzee's issues so far have come from a lack of physicality but I at least think there's an argument to be made there.

Unfortunately, the story doesn't improve too much when you consider the rest of the current squad either. Shaw, like Mount, is always injured. Lindelof is really weak for a Premier League centre back. Maguire's lack of agility and pace leave him vulnerable against certain opponents, although I do think this is a lesser issue in the current system. And for as good as he is technically, Mainoo just isn't there yet on the physical level.

It's a huge problem. Any new signings we make either in January or next summer need to be made with this in mind, because the baseline physical level of the squad needs to be considerably better if we want to win games consistently.
Good post. I really hope that Amorim can see this. It is not rocket science but still we are in this terrible position.
 
You seem to be conflating the quality of individual players with the ability of individual dual players to play as a galvanized team. We have plenty of individual quality but lack the latter piece which is why seemingly lesser sides are outperforming us at the moment.

Once Amorim corrects this, we will be among the top four in terms of performance quality, even if we don’t wind up making the top four this season.
No way are we a better attacking unit than Villa, Newcastle, City and Spurs.
 
No way are we a better attacking unit than Villa, Newcastle, City and Spurs.

Distinguishing between individual players and a well honed squad playing as a galvanized team. Most wouldn’t say Villa and Newcastle have better individual players on their books, but they are both at a much more advanced stage in their respective reboots under Emery and Howe - just like Arsenal are at a more advanced stage under Artera 2024 than they were under Arteta in 2020.
 
I find this insistency that we have a decent squad really baffling... we've got one of the worst front lines for a 'top' team in Europe with no established striker and our central midfield is non-existent bar Ugarte. We have essentially no left back and a massive over-reliance on raw talent. All that, plus we have the mental fortitude of a fieldmouse + a captain who completely loses it when things are going against us.
Probably because it’s impossible to know how good the attack could actually be. I have faith in Amorim to turn things around if the bosses back him to change the culture. He’s already changed our general play for the better and it’s just a matter of time before things click in attack, I think. When that happens and the players have confidence in themselves and each other we’ll have a much better impression of their ceiling.
 
How many top 4 squads have 0 players you expect to get around 20 or more goals in a season? Or go into a season with 0 fit left fullbacks?

I mean those are clear dealbreakers on that argument before you even start analysing how good the players are.

Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea have "top 4 squads" how many of our players would even survive more than half a season at Arsenal or Liverpool unless they severely bucked their ideas up?

I think we're better than where we are (again dependent on bucking ideas up), but top 4 would be over performing with the glaring gaps we have even if the players were all bang at it and didn't let their heads ever drop. You need a Rashford randomly going through a purple patch and banging in 30 goals to have a chance of that.
 
Lots of comments across the forum referencing the state the squad is in, and us needing (another) overhaul. This just isnt the case in my view, we've got a strong squad and one that SHOULD be more than capable of achieving top 4.

We've got room for improvement and the squad would benefit from further investment, there's no denying that, but then again so does every squad/team in the league. The squad is talented, its a case of getting more out of it and elevating out current levels.

Hopefully Ruben can achieve that and start to get more out of the current crop as there's ability there, nothing more certain!
Nope. We don’t have a single striker worthy of a top four squad.
 
Distinguishing between individual players and a well honed squad playing as a galvanized team. Most wouldn’t say Villa and Newcastle have better individual players on their books, but they are both at a much more advanced stage in their respective reboots under Emery and Howe - just like Arsenal are at a more advanced stage under Artera 2024 than they were under Arteta in 2020.
Isak, Gordon, Watkins, Duran are far better than what we have. Not even close. Yes, their teams are also more advanced in their rebuild.
 
I don’t think we have at all.

Which players would City, Liverpool, Chelsea or Arsenal want from our current squad?

Bruno, but he’s going to entering a decline over the next few years. Amad on current form but would he sustain it? Yoro as he looks decent. Mazraoui, he’s class. Kobbie is class but is slow coming back to his best after his injury although we saw glimpses yesterday.

Who else?

Garnacho looks like he has potential but there are obvious problems off the pitch and he really needs to improve his decision making.

Hojlund looks decent but not really compared to what the ‘top 4’ have.

So possibly 5 of our players would be desirable for the 4 other biggest teams but would they make their 11 consistently? Probably not.

It was awful watching United yesterday, you could tell the whole crowd was anxious and the atmosphere was absolutely dead. Too many players that seem seconds off the pace. Decision making taking way too long, holding on to the ball for too long and not closing down anywhere near fast enough.

The Bournemouth players looked sharp and up for it, that’s why they won. They didn’t even have to play well, they just put effort in.

Was watching the players warming up running through their shooting and crossing drills and it was embarrassing the amount that were missing while shooting into an empty goal.

The squad needs an overhaul and we need to buy industrious players that will work hard and have a bit of talent (like Mazraoui). We need to shy away from the big money flash signings as they very rarely work out.
 
How many top 4 squads have 0 players you expect to get around 20 or more goals in a season? Or go into a season with 0 fit left fullbacks?

I mean those are clear dealbreakers on that argument before you even start analysing how good the players are.

Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea have "top 4 squads" how many of our players would even survive more than half a season at Arsenal or Liverpool unless they severely bucked their ideas up?

I think we're better than where we are (again dependent on bucking ideas up), but top 4 would be over performing with the glaring gaps we have even if the players were all bang at it and didn't let their heads ever drop. You need a Rashford randomly going through a purple patch and banging in 30 goals to have a chance of that.
20 goals? Do we even have a 10 PL goals player? This is bottom half mediocrity.
 
I strongly disagree.

I think we have very poor players in many positions, and no world class players in the whole squad which is ridiculous for such an expensively assembled group.

In terms of players who would not look out of place in one of the top 4 squads, I would say we have maybe half a dozen.

We have a mid-table squad, with potential IF some players can respond to training and develop/work harder. Currently though, many of these players are performing much worse than they should be, and seem to be failing to put in the effort.
 
Amad would probably make the Liverpool , City , Chelsea , Arsenal squad.
It's not a comment on Bruno's talent but none of those teams are setup for a player like him. He could play well for those teams but again won't make the squad. Where would you fit him in there in the first place?
I dont agree with this. Bruno is so talented he can play for any team in any system. He gets into an Arsenal side ahead of Martinelli, he gets into a Liverpool side ahead of Szoboszolai as a10 or Gakpo playing from the left, he gets into Chelsea ahead of Sancho playing from left, he gets into Tottenham ahead of Johnson or Kulusevski, he gets into Villa ahead of Tielemans or McGinn. Theres probably two or three teams on the planet he doesnt get into.
 
20 goals? Do we even have a 10 PL goals player? This is bottom half mediocrity.

No if we're going by PL goals 10 seems like a stretch unless Bruno gets a lot of penalties!

We have forwards who potentially COULD get to that, but not who've proven they can do it. Outside of Rashford (who's subsequently proven he can't anymore).

Which is ridiclous realy when arguing about if we're good enough for top 4.