Agree that Villa have a comfortably better first XI than us. As do Chelsea, Spurs and Newcastle.
We've got a Top 4 squad...
- Thread starter M Bison
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Forest...
The league table doesn't lie. This is a midtable squad and miles off competing with the top sides in the league. There's probably only a handful of our players that Bournemouth would start.
The squad was also absolute bobbins when he took over. The interim manager literally said it needed open heart surgery and only the GK was good enough ffs.
Looking that way to be honest. Physically on another level.
I do think we have to consider premier league proven talents alongside potential overseas gems picked by our scouts.
Cunha, Mbeumo, Semenyo, Bowen, Gordon to name a few.
I think you overestimate our defence. Forest and Bournmouth just scored 6 at OT.
We have a squad for 7-13th position. Our attack is exceptionally dire.
It’s a mentality and culture problem, we may have won a couple of domestic cups but it doesn’t seem to have added any steel to the dressing room culture. We have had expensive “world class” players thrown into the team and title winning managers, but they have all reverted to the mean.
Anyone who has played sport at any level from 5 a side all the way to some form of semi professional level will be able to identify with the fact that a good team has a culture around it where all the fundamentals are already in place in terms of habits and routines. You turn up to a game knowing that every person with you is going to do their job and the win is already visualised. You then essentially put the work in and go through the motions.
This team, since the big man left has season after season removed players from transfers and age that had that mentality, and slowly over time the ship of Theseus of Manchester United is not the same ship.
There is no simple change where we get X manager or 4 top players and we instantly challenge for a title.
Chelsea have spent 1.5 billion on a complete scattergun of talent and are only starting to put together some sembelence of form. Arsenal who are years ahead of us are still no closer to bringing the gap at the top.
The only teams who have the mentality have been Liverpool and city, I’d argue they could have got any potential manager not just slot and the culture they have there would have carried them through.
City on the other hand lose a handful of key personnel and the house of cards tumbles over because of their small squad.
We’re in for a long hall, I’m hopeful it happens under Amorim but something has to fundamentally change at the football level of the club, how players train, eat together, travel to games, how the training staff interact, how the manager deals with off the field issues. Everything needs to come together to get a team that plays for each other and believes they can win. But it’s the hardest thing to cultivate in sport.
I remember playing basketball as a fresher coming into a decent team who didn’t lose a game the previous year losing a couple of key players but the ones the year below stepped up and we continued as we did before, by the time I was in third year our guys stepped up and it was pretty seamless as long as you continue that identity.
Building an identity from scratch is hard and you need powerful characters to do it.
Anyone who has played sport at any level from 5 a side all the way to some form of semi professional level will be able to identify with the fact that a good team has a culture around it where all the fundamentals are already in place in terms of habits and routines. You turn up to a game knowing that every person with you is going to do their job and the win is already visualised. You then essentially put the work in and go through the motions.
This team, since the big man left has season after season removed players from transfers and age that had that mentality, and slowly over time the ship of Theseus of Manchester United is not the same ship.
There is no simple change where we get X manager or 4 top players and we instantly challenge for a title.
Chelsea have spent 1.5 billion on a complete scattergun of talent and are only starting to put together some sembelence of form. Arsenal who are years ahead of us are still no closer to bringing the gap at the top.
The only teams who have the mentality have been Liverpool and city, I’d argue they could have got any potential manager not just slot and the culture they have there would have carried them through.
City on the other hand lose a handful of key personnel and the house of cards tumbles over because of their small squad.
We’re in for a long hall, I’m hopeful it happens under Amorim but something has to fundamentally change at the football level of the club, how players train, eat together, travel to games, how the training staff interact, how the manager deals with off the field issues. Everything needs to come together to get a team that plays for each other and believes they can win. But it’s the hardest thing to cultivate in sport.
I remember playing basketball as a fresher coming into a decent team who didn’t lose a game the previous year losing a couple of key players but the ones the year below stepped up and we continued as we did before, by the time I was in third year our guys stepped up and it was pretty seamless as long as you continue that identity.
Building an identity from scratch is hard and you need powerful characters to do it.
Yeh I see your point, only reason I said potential top 4 is I can see us getting top 4 with Yoro, Mazraoui, De Ligt, Martínez, Maguire, which I think is the strongest part of the team. It's just set pieces mostly we're fragile. Is this PL title winning defence? Nah but maybe top 4
Wingbacks I'm classing midfielders because they just attackers as much as defenders so they in between.
Yep, when was the last time we signed another attacker from a prem club? Fergie used to do it constantly in the 90s, I know it’s not the same now. Yeah, we are going to overpay because of the prem tax, but we overpaid for shite from the Dutch and Italian league. Cunha would be made for this system.
It doesn’t bother me of we finish 15th (I don’t think we will). The manager needs time to assess this group and cull where needed in the summer (I really am glad he has not come in at the end of the season and has seen these players in a competitive environment because they can pull the wool
In pre season very easily).
The system needs time as well. Shifting to wing backs is complicated and will require a lot of work with players understanding how to create and overloads higher up the field being probably the hardest bit of this as well as defending better as a unit.
We cannot keep sacking manager after manager while players keep getting starts and new contracts. Some of these players haven’t got it and some have. Let him suss that out and back him to do the job. Like I say if he finished 15th and there were signs for the longer term I’d be happy. At the moment we are too easy to play against and we rarely out work other teams. This will need changing over the next 9 months as he shapes his team. Amorim has my full support and I genuinely do not care who he culls.
In pre season very easily).
The system needs time as well. Shifting to wing backs is complicated and will require a lot of work with players understanding how to create and overloads higher up the field being probably the hardest bit of this as well as defending better as a unit.
We cannot keep sacking manager after manager while players keep getting starts and new contracts. Some of these players haven’t got it and some have. Let him suss that out and back him to do the job. Like I say if he finished 15th and there were signs for the longer term I’d be happy. At the moment we are too easy to play against and we rarely out work other teams. This will need changing over the next 9 months as he shapes his team. Amorim has my full support and I genuinely do not care who he culls.
We definitely don't have a top 4 squad and the table proves that: all of Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea and - just about - City, have better squads, as do Villa and Newcastle. You can make an argument that Brighton, Forest, Spurs and, actually, Bournemouth, are also better in the sense they've got a bigger core of players who are, well just better. Whether because they're younger, stronger, faster, more physically adept, more technically skilled and, in many cases, are still developing, with higher ceilings.
Conversely, it's accurate to say we have a large group of players in our regular squads who are nowhere near good enough: Casemiro (a ridiculous signing), Eriksen (too old); Maguire (redeemed himself and a good role model in many ways, but too slow and lacks mobility), Malacia (a punt but he's nowhere near PL standard), Martinez (too short and slow for the PL), Antony (where do you start?); Dalot (we've seen enough to know he's not good enough) are all in there and you could add to that list of course. It's actually easier to come up with a group who might be of top 4 standard. Because it's not a big one.
Conversely, it's accurate to say we have a large group of players in our regular squads who are nowhere near good enough: Casemiro (a ridiculous signing), Eriksen (too old); Maguire (redeemed himself and a good role model in many ways, but too slow and lacks mobility), Malacia (a punt but he's nowhere near PL standard), Martinez (too short and slow for the PL), Antony (where do you start?); Dalot (we've seen enough to know he's not good enough) are all in there and you could add to that list of course. It's actually easier to come up with a group who might be of top 4 standard. Because it's not a big one.
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It’s not a top 4 squad, not based on the stage of their careers our players are at or what they produce on a consistent level.
We don’t even have 1 or 2 really high quality individuals to elevate us above the bulk of the mid table teams. Are our 3 best players better than Newcastle or Brighton’s best 3?. The truth is the quality of our starting eleven today is a lot closer to Bournemouth’s level than it is to Chelsea’s.
We don’t even have 1 or 2 really high quality individuals to elevate us above the bulk of the mid table teams. Are our 3 best players better than Newcastle or Brighton’s best 3?. The truth is the quality of our starting eleven today is a lot closer to Bournemouth’s level than it is to Chelsea’s.
One of the most baffling things about the Ten Hag era approach to recruitment was the complete lack of focus on getting players with the base physical level needed for the PL. Utd built a squad full of players who are either slow, immobile, weak, poor in the air, or a combination of the above.
It automatically meant that this squad would have to be ripped apart again at huge cost, and it will now be rebuilt to fit Amorin's style, one which may not even work in the PL. It might but being in this situation again is an indictment on everyone involved over a number of years.
It automatically meant that this squad would have to be ripped apart again at huge cost, and it will now be rebuilt to fit Amorin's style, one which may not even work in the PL. It might but being in this situation again is an indictment on everyone involved over a number of years.
We have the attacking options of a miserable team, and that's being kind. Our wingbacks are a similar level. The only areas we are at least competitive on paper are defence (they've been hopeless however) and midfield (hit or miss - no idea what our best options are there). Goalkeeper is nothing special either.
So no, not top 4 - and not close.
Liverpool, City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Newcastle, Villa all have comfortably better squads, and I'd rate Spurs over us. That puts us miserable.
Edit - midtable not miserable
although either works
So no, not top 4 - and not close.
Liverpool, City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Newcastle, Villa all have comfortably better squads, and I'd rate Spurs over us. That puts us miserable.
Edit - midtable not miserable
although either worksWe always sign players with clear limitations that even most the forum question before we sign them. It’s been happening for a decade.
Actually the sooner management realizes that the opposite of the OP is true, the better.
With clever business in January, we might salvage 8th this season. Then we need a huge transfer window in the summer. Four quality players in, about six or seven out.
With clever business in January, we might salvage 8th this season. Then we need a huge transfer window in the summer. Four quality players in, about six or seven out.
Why does Rashford always seem to get a mention? It's quite perplexing!
That being said, I can guarantee you he's not laughing. He's United through and through. Why would he?
I was going to ask something similar. How many players do we have that top 4 teams would trade their starters for.
I can only think of Amad and Mazraoui, right now.
He set us back years.
We’re weak physically and mentally. Teams come to Old Trafford and steamroller us.
I hope that Amorim is good at transfers because the scouts at OT are not.
Top 4 in the championship, more like.
This is another very important point, on paper we look better than we are in some respects. But the squad is completely devoid of pace, mobility and athleticism. We have so few players who can cover the ground, it’s why someone like Ugarte sticks out like a sore thumb.
No we don't.
Top 4 squad?
Probably a top 10 squad if we are lucky. Perhaps you can argue that some of our players may sneak into a couple of the top 4 clubs, but that’s not the definition of “squad” we should be looking at.
For example, many shite players can look extremely serviceable in a proper squad. Our squad is so mismanaged that we have so many different players who are good at certain things but limited at others - leaving us in a place where our attempts at a play-style will eventually contradict the personnel (players), therefore making it difficult to roll out a proper cohesive match day squad.
To be honest, I think you are being generous, as our Frankenstein squad is no where close to being top 4.
Probably a top 10 squad if we are lucky. Perhaps you can argue that some of our players may sneak into a couple of the top 4 clubs, but that’s not the definition of “squad” we should be looking at.
For example, many shite players can look extremely serviceable in a proper squad. Our squad is so mismanaged that we have so many different players who are good at certain things but limited at others - leaving us in a place where our attempts at a play-style will eventually contradict the personnel (players), therefore making it difficult to roll out a proper cohesive match day squad.
To be honest, I think you are being generous, as our Frankenstein squad is no where close to being top 4.
To be fair, when the likes of Bournemouth and Forest are doing so much better than us it's hard not to think we're not getting the most out of current squad.
But our squad is really bad, relative to where we want to be.
Error prone goalkeeper
Slow centre backs
Full backs who offer nothing in attack when played at wing back
Slow, old central midfielders who are past their prime
Young players who are not good enough yet who will take years to get there (if they ever do)
Players who have consistently proven they can't keep possession of a football
Players who consistently make bad decisions in attack
Attackers who can't finish
Injury prone players who are a waste of wages as they never play
I think people are being a bit kind when they suggest our only problem is the lack of goalscoring centre forward. If City are struggling with the best goalscorer in the world up front for them, then we probably would be too.
But our squad is really bad, relative to where we want to be.
Error prone goalkeeper
Slow centre backs
Full backs who offer nothing in attack when played at wing back
Slow, old central midfielders who are past their prime
Young players who are not good enough yet who will take years to get there (if they ever do)
Players who have consistently proven they can't keep possession of a football
Players who consistently make bad decisions in attack
Attackers who can't finish
Injury prone players who are a waste of wages as they never play
I think people are being a bit kind when they suggest our only problem is the lack of goalscoring centre forward. If City are struggling with the best goalscorer in the world up front for them, then we probably would be too.
Perhaps the manager isn't getting the most out of them.
But I'd counter that by asking if the players are getting the most out of themselves. I'd suggest not in most cases, given the terribly fitness levels, stupid decisions, and errors on display
We've a squad that in one off games can play like a top 4 side, but those games are so far above what they're capable of on a consistent basis. I think the vast majority of the squad wouldn't end up being first 11 players in the actual top 4 teams.
We might be close to top 4 if we had got Amorim in the summer ..
We are too far behind to get top 4 with the state we are ..
I heard folks say only 6 points .. but we haven't won 2-3 games in a row .have won around 20 games in the last 2 seasons.
This will take time and money.. but we have no money
We have a top 8 squad at best
Just read in the mains (from the usual suspect) that EtH's signings were by far the best post SAF.
Couldn't make it up.
Couldn't make it up.
I think that's a fair assessment. Would also add our LWB problem is clearly a big issue in the team and is causing a lot of balance issues.
United's forward line is just potential at this moment, as it was last season. The only really senior forward we have is probably leaving in January too.
We have one player who might get in a top 4 starting XI - Bruno Fernandes. Thats legitimately it. MAYBE Ugarte, MAYBE Garnacho on song.
None I would argue
It is a mixed squad. Certain players are good and you can expect more, but there are quite a few who need moving on.
Don't know how we are going to solve the issue, as I don't think we will be able to sign more than 5 players in a window at most.
Don't know how we are going to solve the issue, as I don't think we will be able to sign more than 5 players in a window at most.
We’ve got a squad that could get top four for maybe a season if everything went to plan, but it is never going to get top four consistently is how I prefer to look at it.
Top 4 in Eredivisie, maybe.
While we do have some players worth keeping, the average level is just too poor at the moment.
While we do have some players worth keeping, the average level is just too poor at the moment.
Mid table squad.
ETH's wet dream