Westminster Politics

Maticmaker said:
I agree, also I believe we are told only what those in power want us to hear! That is why I am always doubtful (doubting Thomas) about what exactly is an absolute truth, at least in terms of politicians utterances.

I suppose its true that we get the politicians we deserve. From my early thirties up to my mid fifties I always, certainly at every GE, made a point to attend any public meetings where prospective candidates for my vote were due to speak, in an attempt to find out what each candidate really believed, not just the party publicity material. I have to say it generally wasn't much help, even when on one or two occasions I managed to get a couple of questions in from the floor, I very rarely left such meetings any the wiser. Nowadays all such events seem to be all practiced and choreographed and it is even less enlightening.

The only politician I felt really comfortable with was Labour's Frank Field. I wasn't one of his constituents, but I happened to be working on Merseyside at the time, so went along to one of his public meetings. He was impressive in his responses, although I didn't agree with everything he said I thought him 'an honest man' and had I lived in his constituency would probably have voted for him.

Effective leadership and politicians, in my experience rarely go together, although again whilst I disagreed with much of Margaret Thatchers idealism, she did (or tried to do) everything she said she would, we all had fair warning with Maggie. The phrase " the lady's not for turning" was a brutal truism at times. but very apt.

Frank Field and Margaret Thatcher may seem an 'odd coupling' but in my lifetime and personal experience these are the only two politicians that would come anywhere near to meeting your request to be told... what you needed to hear, rather than what you wanted to hear
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That is quite interesting to read. And to find that we actually have more in common than expected.
My interest in politics was the reason I became a shop steward in the 1970's. I only did it for a few years because I wanted to understand the root cause of the terrible industrial relations problems that were damaging the very fabric of our country. Don't know why, but I have always had a leftist leaning and have always considered myself working class. At the time, I strongly opposed Mrs Thatcher and all she stood for. But as I matured, I came to accept some of the things she did. And having watched the TV programmes about her and her struggles within her party, had a modicum of respect for her.

I too attended some of the election campaigns (of the Labour candidates) and wasn't even mildly impressed. But voted for them nonetheless and always have.
I was a big fan of Tony Blair and actually attended a meeting he was at in Bristol. Razor sharp brain and he could see things very quickly. I even supported the policy on the Iraq War. And despite many calling him a war criminal and a liar, it is significant that none of the inquiries found any evidence that he lied to the British people.

I was very much against Jeremy Corbyn. Didn't agree with his policies or his leadership and wasn't at all surprised at the election result.
Our local MP is a complete waste of time. I have written to him on many occasions and all I ever get back is a standard policy statement.
Pretty disillusioned with politics I have to say. And dislike the way Boris treats the truth as an option only to be used when he cannot think of a much better lie.
Thank you.
 
Dobba said:
He's got those 10 Pledges and everything. Yes he's gone back on most, if not all, of them but they're still easy to find.
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I think herein lies the problem. He doesn't stand for anything in particular other than the promise of a slightly less extreme status quo with government.

The fact he has backtracked on 10 core pledges also means he is hard to trust. In that respect he is definitely as electable as Boris, but without the charisma.
 
Buster15 said:
That is quite interesting to read. And to find that we actually have more in common than expected.
My interest in politics was the reason I became a shop steward in the 1970's. I only did it for a few years because I wanted to understand the root cause of the terrible industrial relations problems that were damaging the very fabric of our country. Don't know why, but I have always had a leftist leaning and have always considered myself working class. At the time, I strongly opposed Mrs Thatcher and all she stood for. But as I matured, I came to accept some of the things she did. And having watched the TV programmes about her and her struggles within her party, had a modicum of respect for her.

I too attended some of the election campaigns (of the Labour candidates) and wasn't even mildly impressed. But voted for them nonetheless and always have.
I was a big fan of Tony Blair and actually attended a meeting he was at in Bristol. Razor sharp brain and he could see things very quickly. I even supported the policy on the Iraq War. And despite many calling him a war criminal and a liar, it is significant that none of the inquiries found any evidence that he lied to the British people.

I was very much against Jeremy Corbyn. Didn't agree with his policies or his leadership and wasn't at all surprised at the election result.
Our local MP is a complete waste of time. I have written to him on many occasions and all I ever get back is a standard policy statement.
Pretty disillusioned with politics I have to say. And dislike the way Boris treats the truth as an option only to be used when he cannot think of a much better lie.
Thank you.
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That's great thank you for your reply.
I think we might have been on some sort of parallel road to politics. I too was a shop steward. but started slightly earlier 1967. I was twenty one years old and at that time the youngest steward in the local area. I only became shop steward because no one else wanted the job. A friend had introduced me to a local branch of AUEW when I was 16 and I had enrolled as an apprentice in Section 4 (blue card... still have it somewhere!) at 20 I was transferred to the Toolroom to finish off my apprenticeship as a toolmaker. ('Time-serving' was still the norm then not competence based as now).Anyway to cut a long story short at 21 I became the official Steward for the Tool room and the Press shop, mainly because the previous incumbent fell out with the the Press Tool Setters and wasn't too popular with the Toolroom personnel either.
Hence my introduction to politics. I was very wet behind the ears and could not understand why in the workplace all the arguments were about shift work, pay rates, pool bonuses, holiday rotas, etc., but when I attend Union meetings at the local Branch it was all about politics; at the time very strong communist influences, wild cat strikes almost every month, for a while the branch disassociated its self with the local labour party.
I too have been always left leaning, but came to believe the Labour party had an aversion to power, never seemed to go about achieving it the right way. I admired Blair but not all his policies and I was never at ease with his personal approach, and some of the company he kept. however I also believe he had no choice over Iraq and had to 'stay Bush's hand', otherwise a nuclear conflict might have commenced in the middle east (still might to be honest.)

I know I have upset some people on here by referring to the 'loony left', which for me is more to do with a lack of 'reality checking', rather than out and out policy that Corbyn and others pursued. The Tories have been given a massive boost because of the LL and my children and grand children will have to suffer for it. Boris plays the 'Buffoon' to a tee, being economical with the truth is in fact for many part of his endearment, but wait until the real Tories decide to ditch him, which will be as soon as he looks like losing an election, then they will turn on him, but I am sorry to say Labour will not be the beneficiaries.

...enjoyed swapping stories.
 
Maticmaker said:
That's great thank you for your reply.
I think we might have been on some sort of parallel road to politics. I too was a shop steward. but started slightly earlier 1967. I was twenty one years old and at that time the youngest steward in the local area. I only became shop steward because no one else wanted the job. A friend had introduced me to a local branch of AUEW when I was 16 and I had enrolled as an apprentice in Section 4 (blue card... still have it somewhere!) at 20 I was transferred to the Toolroom to finish off my apprenticeship as a toolmaker. ('Time-serving' was still the norm then not competence based as now).Anyway to cut a long story short at 21 I became the official Steward for the Tool room and the Press shop, mainly because the previous incumbent fell out with the the Press Tool Setters and wasn't too popular with the Toolroom personnel either.
Hence my introduction to politics. I was very wet behind the ears and could not understand why in the workplace all the arguments were about shift work, pay rates, pool bonuses, holiday rotas, etc., but when I attend Union meetings at the local Branch it was all about politics; at the time very strong communist influences, wild cat strikes almost every month, for a while the branch disassociated its self with the local labour party.
I too have been always left leaning, but came to believe the Labour party had an aversion to power, never seemed to go about achieving it the right way. I admired Blair but not all his policies and I was never at ease with his personal approach, and some of the company he kept. however I also believe he had no choice over Iraq and had to 'stay Bush's hand', otherwise a nuclear conflict might have commenced in the middle east (still might to be honest.)

I know I have upset some people on here by referring to the 'loony left', which for me is more to do with a lack of 'reality checking', rather than out and out policy that Corbyn and others pursued. The Tories have been given a massive boost because of the LL and my children and grand children will have to suffer for it. Boris plays the 'Buffoon' to a tee, being economical with the truth is in fact for many part of his endearment, but wait until the real Tories decide to ditch him, which will be as soon as he looks like losing an election, then they will turn on him, but I am sorry to say Labour will not be the beneficiaries.

...enjoyed swapping stories.
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Rather than bore everyone else, I will message you.
 
Buster15 said:
You obviously don't like to hear the truth then. And despite all the evidence, you know better. My hero.
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The "dodgy dossier", nuclear weapons that never existed and which they knew didn't exist, manufactured ties between Iraq and Al Qaeda, even though Saddam had no ties to AQ. The list goes on.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...t_Propaganda_Deception_and_the_'War_on_Terror'


What did you expect Chilcot to find? The UK isn't going to criminalize its self. It was still plenty damning though.
 
Buster15 said:
I even supported the policy on the Iraq War. And despite many calling him a war criminal and a liar, it is significant that none of the inquiries found any evidence that he lied to the British people.
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Wow. Even in retrospect with all the information available you are stuck in the early 00s lie!?
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
Wow. Even in retrospect with all the information available you are stuck in the early 00s lie!?
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Ok. Tell you what.
You provide the evidence that Tony Blair lied to the British people over the Iraq War and I will personally apologise to you.
Can't say fairer than that.
Looking forward to hearing from you.
 
neverdie said:
The "dodgy dossier", nuclear weapons that never existed and which they knew didn't exist, manufactured ties between Iraq and Al Qaeda, even though Saddam had no ties to AQ. The list goes on.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/316014087_Learning_from_the_Chilcot_Report_Propaganda_Deception_and_the_'War_on_Terror'


What did you expect Chilcot to find? The UK isn't going to criminalize its self. It was still plenty damning though.
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So please quote me where it said that the PM lied to the British people. And if you can, I will personally apologise to you and accept that what I said was wrong.
And as you will have read, the enquiry concluded that Blair had nothing to do with the dodgy dossier.
 
Buster15 said:
The elephant in the room is the constant and compulsive lying from the PM and the rest of his despicable party.
Because they lie about almost everything and every day, most people find it difficult to actually determine the truth and the facts.
And if you don't understand what is true and not true, how can you really know what is going on.
So you make subjective judgements instead of objective ones.
The result becomes the death of democracy.
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Buster15 said:
I was a big fan of Tony Blair and actually attended a meeting he was at in Bristol. Razor sharp brain and he could see things very quickly. I even supported the policy on the Iraq War. And despite many calling him a war criminal and a liar, it is significant that none of the inquiries found any evidence that he lied to the British people.
Click to expand...

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Maticmaker said:
I agree, also I believe we are told only what those in power want us to hear! That is why I am always doubtful (doubting Thomas) about what exactly is an absolute truth, at least in terms of politicians utterances.

I suppose its true that we get the politicians we deserve. From my early thirties up to my mid fifties I always, certainly at every GE, made a point to attend any public meetings where prospective candidates for my vote were due to speak, in an attempt to find out what each candidate really believed, not just the party publicity material. I have to say it generally wasn't much help, even when on one or two occasions I managed to get a couple of questions in from the floor, I very rarely left such meetings any the wiser. Nowadays all such events seem to be all practiced and choreographed and it is even less enlightening.

The only politician I felt really comfortable with was Labour's Frank Field. I wasn't one of his constituents, but I happened to be working on Merseyside at the time, so went along to one of his public meetings. He was impressive in his responses, although I didn't agree with everything he said I thought him 'an honest man' and had I lived in his constituency would probably have voted for him.

Effective leadership and politicians, in my experience rarely go together, although again whilst I disagreed with much of Margaret Thatchers idealism, she did (or tried to do) everything she said she would, we all had fair warning with Maggie. The phrase " the lady's not for turning" was a brutal truism at times. but very apt.

Frank Field and Margaret Thatcher may seem an 'odd coupling' but in my lifetime and personal experience these are the only two politicians that would come anywhere near to meeting your request to be told... what you needed to hear, rather than what you wanted to hear
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The thing is that politics are a giant set of cogwheels. Even if you're straight and honest you wont and can't change much of real politics.

At best a few token regulations to appease the mass. But the international politics is already set in stone by some invisible mechanism no matter who's in charge.

For better or for worse
 
These cnuts are going to ride the national wave of the Euros positivity all the way to a big poll boost aren't they ? Half makes me want to get beat to spite the horrible feckers. Come on Rashford, say something to put them in their place again lad.
 
Sky1981 said:
The thing is that politics are a giant set of cogwheels. Even if you're straight and honest you wont and can't change much of real politics.

At best a few token regulations to appease the mass. But the international politics is already set in stone by some invisible mechanism no matter who's in charge.

For better or for worse
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Yes, I think I would tend to agree, but our precious vote is the only interface and chance we have of making a difference, so we ought to collectively try to distill who to trust and how far?

As my old boss use to say "At every GE I vote against the Government.... but they keep getting back in!"
 
Utterly utterly depressing that something that was crucial to the health of the nation and cost the tax payer an eye wateringingly unfathomable amount of money was placed in the hands of this incompetent cretin.
 
Sky1981 said:
The thing is that politics are a giant set of cogwheels. Even if you're straight and honest you wont and can't change much of real politics.

At best a few token regulations to appease the mass. But the international politics is already set in stone by some invisible mechanism no matter who's in charge.
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There is some truth to this but the point about cogwheels is that they move. Politics isn't set in stone except in cases where people spread defeatism by assuming they can effect no change.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
No idea who the MP is or what this harassment is - but this is a perfectly normal letter which I would assume is sent out to lots of voters turning 18, and would be replicated across the country?
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Some more context:

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ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
No idea who the MP is or what this harassment is - but this is a perfectly normal letter which I would assume is sent out to lots of voters turning 18, and would be replicated across the country?
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I can’t say I know of a single person who received a letter from their local mp on turning 18. I certainly didn’t.
 
Pexbo said:
Were you an 18 year old girl in the constituency of a creepy nonce?
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I couldn’t remember who my local mp was when I turned 18. Upon looking him up it seems he was a racist and a massive cnut (described as a right wing libertarian) but no allegations of noncery so that may well be the reason.

Racist but not a nonce. I suppose that’s pretty good for politicians of the era. Take a bow mr. Eric Forth.
 
AllGoodNamesRGone said:
I can’t say I know of a single person who received a letter from their local mp on turning 18. I certainly didn’t.
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how long ago was that for you!

all I was trying to say, is that I would not see it as anything unusual. Politicians are always trying to mobilise the youth.

Having said that, obviously given this guy’s history - it doesn’t look good, even if this is a standard letter that gets sent out.

in no bloody way, an i defending him.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
how long ago was that for you!

all I was trying to say, is that I would not see it as anything unusual. Politicians are always trying to mobilise the youth.

Having said that, obviously given this guy’s history - it doesn’t look good, even if this is a standard letter that gets sent out.

in no bloody way, an i defending him.
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Some years ago:lol: 2006 feels like a lifetime ago.

I had certainly never heard of it ever happening before but a quick google search shows it is far more common than I realised. They definitely didn’t do it when I was 18, maybe my local mp has started doing it now as I can’t say I have any interactions with 18 year olds to know but interesting to find out it seems a pretty common thing.

I would have thrown mine away if they had sent one.
 
AllGoodNamesRGone said:
Some years ago:lol: 2006 feels like a lifetime ago.

I had certainly never heard of it ever happening before but a quick google search shows it is far more common than I realised. They definitely didn’t do it when I was 18, maybe my local mp has started doing it now as I can’t say I have any interactions with 18 year olds to know but interesting to find out it seems a pretty common thing.

I would have thrown mine away if they had sent one.
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I suppose I could have googled it as well!
 
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