Westminster Politics

Is he saying Nurses are only getting paid £3.50 as a total salary :wenger::lol: Good old Andy Hyperbolic Burnham...
He could be making the same argument for anything, like building a new hospital, well that money could have been spent on wages....

Unless people are willing to give away lots of their liberties and make it compulsory like in some east Asian countries, track and trace will never work. Apple and Google's version isn't really effective either.
When the app might become truly useful is when the vaccine passports are introduced, and the actual app will be your digital passport, thats when the compulsory nature of things start to come into play and trace and trace will work in tandem.
I think the point he is making is clear.

The Tories will waste billions on private sector contracts to incompetent companies owned by Tory donors, but won't even give nurses in the public sector the pay rise they deserve. It is ideological unfairness implemented by the Tories. How hard is that to understand?

Track and trace performed much more efficiently even in other European countries such as Germany, the "liberties" argument does not apply to them.

I genuinely don't understand how people can continue to make excuses for our incompetent and corrupt UK government. Maybe too many are reading tabloids.
 
I think the point he is making is clear.

The Tories will waste billions on private sector contracts to incompetent companies owned by Tory donors, but won't even give nurses in the public sector the pay rise they deserve. It is ideological unfairness implemented by the Tories. How hard is that to understand?

Track and trace performed much more efficiently even in other European countries such as Germany, the "liberties" argument does not apply to them.

I genuinely don't understand how people can continue to make excuses for our incompetent and corrupt UK government. Maybe too many are reading tabloids.

Your posts epitomise that of someone that lives their life by what the Guardian wants you to think.
And you clearly haven't bother reading my post fully in addressing it and have just latched to a particular part and ranted on that. I am not defending the implemention of track and trace, if you actually comprehended what i was saying, you would have figured that out, but am questioning the way people go about in their criticism, hence hyperbolic Burnham. And thats a lie about Germany.
 
Do nurses really deserve a pay rise just because they are doing their job? They chose the route and actually get paid quite well. The average is thought to be 33k. That is hardly a pittance.

They also get overtime payments over 37.5 hrs per week. So, it isn't like they aren't getting compensated.

Surely, those going into nursing etc. understood that long hours is a very real possibility? I mean it is logical considering it is about people's lives.

Whilst they are complaining about not getting a big enough pay rise people are/have lost their jobs. The government can't just go and give a massive pay rise for them doing their jobs, particularly with what is happening.
 
Unless people are willing to give away lots of their liberties and make it compulsory like in some east Asia
Is this the sort nonsense we are going to have to put up with? That track and trace failed in the UK because Brits are freedom loving? Track and trace worked pretty well in loads of countries with similar freedoms to the UK. It was just incompletely, yet expensively put together.
 
Do nurses really deserve a pay rise just because they are doing their job? They chose the route and actually get paid quite well. The average is thought to be 33k. That is hardly a pittance.

They also get overtime payments over 37.5 hrs per week. So, it isn't like they aren't getting compensated.

Surely, those going into nursing etc. understood that long hours is a very real possibility? I mean it is logical considering it is about people's lives.

Whilst they are complaining about not getting a big enough pay rise people are/have lost their jobs. They can't just go and give a massive pay rise for them doing their jobs, particularly with what is happening.
:lol:
 
Whilst they are complaining about not getting a big enough pay rise people are/have lost their jobs.
Why, whenever someone says this, does it seem like the blame is being put on nurses and doctors for others being out of work? Because I never hear "and the government must be held accountable for wasting billions of pounds" in the same breath.

It's the same every time there's an unforeseeable event that results in an economic downturn. Freeze public sector pay, and have politicians frame it like it's public versus private. It clearly works because you suddenly have endless voices shouting down public sector workers and comparing it to their own shit quality of life. But never once highlighting who's to blame for it being so shit in the first place.
 
Is this the sort nonsense we are going to have to put up with? That track and trace failed in the UK because Brits are freedom loving? Track and trace worked pretty well in loads of countries with similar freedoms to the UK. It was just incompletely, yet expensively put together.

How has it failed exactly? Please explain. Is it completely useless for the future?
And what countries, Germany? as mentioned, because thats false. Do these countries have the same level of virus circulating as the U.K? The whole point of Track and trace is when its back to containment phase, the U.k has never got back to that level since the start of the pandemic.
 
Why, whenever someone says this, does it seem like the blame is being put on nurses and doctors for others being out of work? Because I never hear "and the government must be held accountable for wasting billions of pounds" in the same breath.

It's the same every time there's an unforeseeable event that results in an economic downturn. Freeze public sector pay, and have politicians frame it like it's public versus private. It clearly works because you suddenly have endless voices shouting down public sector workers and comparing it to their own shit quality of life. But never once highlighting who's to blame for it being so shit in the first place.

It isn't blaming them for people losing their jobs, but them feeling sorry for themselves that bugs me. Nurses tend to feel like they are hard done by, but you can be in a hell of a lot worse positions. They have a good wage (anyone struggling on 33k per year needs to sort themselves out) and being in the public sector means their jobs are more secure. They are guaranteed to be paid overtime, which isn't the case for private firms. A lot of private firms do not even pay overtime and yet will expect it to be worked. (Whether you do or not is another matter, but the pressure exists).

A lot of private companies are not going to be giving their employees pay rises this year. It is understandable that the government freezes pay rises this year, particularly with the expenditure. I just do not understand the sense of entitlement people have towards a pay rise for doing their job. If they weren't getting paid overtime, it would be understandable. If they want better pay, they have to take things into their own hands as most people do with moving jobs.

Also, this idea of being due a pay rise every year only seems to exist in the public sector. The vast majority of jobs will not provide a pay rise year on year.

Nurses etc. have it much better than they try and make out.
 
How has it failed exactly? Please explain. Is it completely useless for the future?
And what countries, Germany? as mentioned, because thats false. Do these countries have the same level of virus circulating as the U.K? The whole point of Track and trace is when its back to containment phase, the U.k has never got back to that level since the start of the pandemic.
This what you said:

Unless people are willing to give away lots of their liberties and make it compulsory like in some east Asian countries, track and trace will never work
Which I took to imply a necessary condition for track and trace to work is people giving away their liberties. This is evidently not true since it has worked in lots of countries where people do not have to give away their freedoms. Germany is one of many examples.

Your last paragragh is irrelevant to the original point.
 
It isn't blaming them for people losing their jobs, but them feeling sorry for themselves that bugs me. Nurses tend to feel like they are hard done by, but you can be in a hell of a lot worse positions. They have a good wage (anyone struggling on 33k per year needs to sort themselves out) and being in the public sector means their jobs are more secure. They are guaranteed to be paid overtime, which isn't the case for private firms. A lot of private firms do not even pay overtime and yet will expect it to be worked. (Whether you do or not is another matter, but the pressure exists).

A lot of private companies are not going to be giving their employees pay rises this year. It is understandable that the government freezes pay rises this year, particularly with the expenditure. I just do not understand the sense of entitlement people have towards a pay rise for doing their job. If they weren't getting paid overtime, it would be understandable. If they want better pay, they have to take things into their own hands as most people do with moving jobs.

Also, this idea of being due a pay rise every year only seems to exist in the public sector. The vast majority of jobs will not provide a pay rise year on year.

Nurses etc. have it much better than they try and make out.
As I said in the second paragraph;

It's the same every time there's an unforeseeable event that results in an economic downturn. Freeze public sector pay, and have politicians frame it like it's public versus private. It clearly works because you suddenly have endless voices shouting down public sector workers and comparing it to their own shit quality of life. But never once highlighting who's to blame for it being so shit in the first place

Just like the credit crunch we've got people waving their hands in the air saying "there is no alternative" whilst politicians line their mates pockets in the background. And once again there's no outrage because the narrative has become public versus private yet again.

Bah, bumhug.
 
50k3em.jpg
 
:lol: our department has gone through three restructures in six years. But I don't know many private sector schools in my area so I guess I fecked up wanting to help young people learn shit, huh?!

Should've become an office clerk or something. Or a stunt driver?! I would love to be one of those, actually... Need to go and update my CV...
 
If they want better pay, they have to take things into their own hands as most people do with moving jobs
If moving jobs is the solution, why can't people who feel insecure in the private sector move into the public sector? It is not as if the NHS is overfilled with applicants for nursing jobs. You can't both say nurses jobs are secure so they cannot complain about relatively poor pay (for the complexity and challenge of the job they do) and yet complain about the insecurity of private sector jobs if both have the freedom to change jobs.
 
This what you said:

Which I took to imply a necessary condition for track and trace to work is people giving away their liberties. This is evidently not true since it has worked in lots of countries where people do not have to give away their freedoms. Germany is one of many examples.

Your last paragragh is irrelevant to the original point.

Well Germany is false, the fact they have had one of the biggest increases in case and death rates since the tail end of last year will tell you that.
How exactly does it work in somewhere like the U.K, where the virus is wide spread, the assumption is everyone has it, so its a pretty pointless tool in that setting.
And as for the figures mentioned, that not just for the app, thats for Test and Trace, in which the app comes under, are you saying actual tests are a waste?
 
I see they’ve come out the woodwork tonight. Backing away before any direct words get stated.
 
Your posts epitomise that of someone that lives their life by what the Guardian wants you to think.
And you clearly haven't bother reading my post fully in addressing it and have just latched to a particular part and ranted on that. I am not defending the implemention of track and trace, if you actually comprehended what i was saying, you would have figured that out, but am questioning the way people go about in their criticism, hence hyperbolic Burnham. And thats a lie about Germany.

The Guardian is too "Keir Starmer" for me, so you are wrong there, again. As you got so touchy I will assume I hit the nail on the head with the tabloid comment.

You don't seem to have an issue with the billions pounds worth of contracts being given to Tory donors?
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-...close-ppe-contracts-court-rules-idUSKBN2AJ1IA

I understood exactly what you said. Unfortunately your post was full of so many inaccuracies, I'm sorry I didn't have time to correct them all. So I picked out a couple of points.

The German track and trace was working well for months until the high Winter numbers kicked in around October. If you aren't aware of that, you aren't paying attention. So once again, your "liberties" argument for the UK is ridiculous.
 
Well Germany is false, the fact they have had one of the biggest increases in case and death rates since the tail end of last year will tell you that.
Germany has a larger population than the UK, yet it has had fewer Covid-19 deaths. I daresay that compared to the UK, you can conclude their methods were more effective. Experts think one important difference is test and trace schemes in both countries.

Also just because lots of people died does not mean it had no effect. Who knows how many more people they would have lost without it?

Yes, of course, test and trace works best when you have fewer cases, which is why it should have been implemented much earlier. But I am not sure why you keep mentioning this and totally ignoring your original point about liberties?
 
How has it failed exactly? Please explain. Is it completely useless for the future?
And what countries, Germany? as mentioned, because thats false. Do these countries have the same level of virus circulating as the U.K? The whole point of Track and trace is when its back to containment phase, the U.k has never got back to that level since the start of the pandemic.
Why do you think these countries had a lower level of virus circulating?
 
The Guardian is too "Keir Starmer" for me, so you are wrong there, again. As you got so touchy I will assume I hit the nail on the head with the tabloid comment.

You don't seem to have an issue with the billions pounds worth of contracts being given to Tory donors?
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-...close-ppe-contracts-court-rules-idUSKBN2AJ1IA

I understood exactly what you said. Unfortunately your post was full of so many inaccuracies, I'm sorry I didn't have time to correct them all. So I picked out a couple of points.

The German track and trace was working well for months until the high Winter numbers kicked in around October. If you aren't aware of that, you aren't paying attention. So once again, your "liberties" argument for the UK is ridiculous.

I am just throwing back the comment at you.

Of course you don't, it helps mask the flakey reply. So basically it got warm, the infection went down just like everywhere then went up due to the winter, but you are attributing it to the app working well, gotcha:rolleyes:
 
Germany has a larger population than the UK, yet it has had fewer Covid-19 deaths. I daresay that compared to the UK, you can conclude their methods were more effective. Experts think one important difference is test and trace schemes in both countries.

Also just because lots of people died does not mean it had no effect. Who knows how many more people they would have lost without it?

Yes, of course, test and trace works best when you have fewer cases, which is why it should have been implemented much earlier. But I am not sure why you keep mentioning this and totally ignoring your original point about liberties?

I am not ignoring it, you keep using Germany as a success, which iam saying its not. Bar the first lockdown, if the U.K had not botched it so bad, it would be inline with the rest of Europe, also the U.K has a higher population density to Germany.

I am not going to post everything, but just some extracts:
The reasons for the failures are complex and systemic. Antiquated technology and underfunded health-care systems have proved ill-equipped to respond. Wealthy nations have struggled to hire enough contact-tracers, marshal them efficiently or make sure that people do self-isolate when infected or that they quarantine when a close contact has the disease. And overstretched contact-tracers have been met with distrust by people wary both of health authorities and of the technologies being deployed to fight the pandemic. Meanwhile, researchers who are keen to draw lessons from contact-tracing operations are stymied by a dearth of data.

A handful of places stand out as exemplars of successful contact-tracing — including South Korea, Vietnam, Japan and Taiwan. Many of these have cracked down on COVID-19 early, isolated infected people and their contacts and used personal data such as mobile-phone signals to track obedience. Not all of those techniques are transferable to countries now struggling to contain massive outbreaks. But they still provide some lessons.

Measures that work include tracing multiple layers of contacts, investigating outbreak clusters and providing people who are advised to quarantine with safe places to do so and with financial compensation. Technology might help, too: from software that streamlines conventional contact-tracing efforts, to smartphone apps that alert people that they might have been exposed to SARS-CoV-2.

Finding contacts
In South Korea, authorities use data-surveillance techniques to get around the problem of people being unwilling to disclose — or unable to recall — close contacts3. “We need to double-check,” says Daejoong Lee at the South Korean Ministry of Economy and Finance. A law passed in response to an outbreak of Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS) in 2015 allows authorities to use data from credit cards, mobile phones and closed-circuit television to trace a person’s movements and identify others they might have exposed to the virus. Information about cases is published online, an approach that allowed the country to avoid broad lockdowns and “worked very well”, says Lee. Still, in March, the Korea Centers for Disease Control issued guidelines limiting the release of ‘excessive’ information, after regional governments published maps of infected people’s routes in too much detail. In one case, a person was wrongly accused of having an affair with his sister-in-law because their overlapping maps revealed they dined together at a restaurant.

Tracers in Vietnam also use extra data — such as Facebook or Instagram posts and mobile-phone location data — to check a person’s movements against those reported to contact-tracers. But the country’s success was down to “the boots on the ground”, says Todd Pollack, an infectious-disease specialist at the Partnership for Health Advancement in Vietnam, a collaboration that provides training and support for the nation’s health system. Contact-tracers interview people face-to-face and use the extra surveillance data to prod for more details. Other places, including Israel, Armenia, Russia, Ecuador and Taiwan, gather mobile-phone location data to aid contact-tracing efforts. But in Slovakia, a constitutional court suspended the government’s attempt to permit this practice.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-03518-4
 
I am not ignoring it, you keep using Germany as a success, which iam saying its not.
I don't think I have mentioned the word success once in replying to you.
Bar the first lockdown, if the U.K had not botched it so bad, it would be inline with the rest of Europe,
Right; keep telling yourself that. At least 50k more deaths with a smaller population...

We are going around in circles. So I am out.
 
I don't think I have mentioned the word success once in replying to you.

Right; keep telling yourself that. At least 50k more deaths with a smaller population...

We are going around in circles. So I am out.

You used the word "worked" does that not mean success from the point of creation? Or its just functional..

Yeah, when Germany & the UK came out of their first lockdown, Germany had around 10k deaths, UK 40k, again, different population density. No botched lockdown and it will be very similar from June 2020

But you haven't even backed up what you said about the app and gone off in another direction. Typical
 
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As a Classical Liberal I have to ask why should nurses get a pay rise now? The pandemonium is almost over and the vaccines are flying out. Nurses will be having an increasingly easy job going forward and will have a chance to kick back a little as the economy starts to shift up a gear. The focus should be on wealth creation and the clear blue skies on the horizon.
 
As a Classical Liberal I have to ask why should nurses get a pay rise now? The pandemonium is almost over and the vaccines are flying out. Nurses will be having an increasingly easy job going forward and will have a chance to kick back a little as the economy starts to shift up a gear. The focus should be on wealth creation and the clear blue skies on the horizon.
:lol:
 
Instead of increasing NHS staff pay, would they not be better off changing their tax bracket so they have a higher threshold before they pay tax? Means they get more take home pay but with the same annual salary as current? Or lowering their NI payments?

Or does this work out the same anyway as the govt would earn less from tax?
 
Instead of increasing NHS staff pay, would they not be better off changing their tax bracket so they have a higher threshold before they pay tax? Means they get more take home pay but with the same annual salary as current? Or lowering their NI payments?

Or does this work out the same anyway as the govt would earn less from tax?

Why would you do that? Sounds like an income tax nightmare creating special tax brackets for different professions
 
It isn't blaming them for people losing their jobs, but them feeling sorry for themselves that bugs me. Nurses tend to feel like they are hard done by, but you can be in a hell of a lot worse positions. They have a good wage (anyone struggling on 33k per year needs to sort themselves out) and being in the public sector means their jobs are more secure. They are guaranteed to be paid overtime, which isn't the case for private firms. A lot of private firms do not even pay overtime and yet will expect it to be worked. (Whether you do or not is another matter, but the pressure exists).

A lot of private companies are not going to be giving their employees pay rises this year. It is understandable that the government freezes pay rises this year, particularly with the expenditure. I just do not understand the sense of entitlement people have towards a pay rise for doing their job. If they weren't getting paid overtime, it would be understandable. If they want better pay, they have to take things into their own hands as most people do with moving jobs.

Also, this idea of being due a pay rise every year only seems to exist in the public sector. The vast majority of jobs will not provide a pay rise year on year.

Nurses etc. have it much better than they try and make out.

Do you ever stop and think “Would the world be a better place if everyone shared my views?” If not, I can guarantee you that it wouldn’t be.
 
It isn't blaming them for people losing their jobs, but them feeling sorry for themselves that bugs me. Nurses tend to feel like they are hard done by, but you can be in a hell of a lot worse positions. They have a good wage (anyone struggling on 33k per year needs to sort themselves out) and being in the public sector means their jobs are more secure. They are guaranteed to be paid overtime, which isn't the case for private firms. A lot of private firms do not even pay overtime and yet will expect it to be worked. (Whether you do or not is another matter, but the pressure exists).

A lot of private companies are not going to be giving their employees pay rises this year. It is understandable that the government freezes pay rises this year, particularly with the expenditure. I just do not understand the sense of entitlement people have towards a pay rise for doing their job. If they weren't getting paid overtime, it would be understandable. If they want better pay, they have to take things into their own hands as most people do with moving jobs.

Also, this idea of being due a pay rise every year only seems to exist in the public sector. The vast majority of jobs will not provide a pay rise year on year.

Nurses etc. have it much better than they try and make out.

Are you talking from experience, having been a nurse in the NHS then??
Or just pontificating...
 
Paying off a nations large debt is never going to make any Chancellor popular.

Sunak's not doing too badly though and its better than leaving it to your children, grand children and great grandchildren to pay....isn't it?
 
Instead of increasing NHS staff pay, would they not be better off changing their tax bracket so they have a higher threshold before they pay tax? Means they get more take home pay but with the same annual salary as current? Or lowering their NI payments?

Or does this work out the same anyway as the govt would earn less from tax?

Sounds like an overly complicated way of rewarding them. Especially as some who work part-time may be below the tax threshold.
Just do the right thing and reward them properly.
 
Paying off a nations large debt is never going to make any Chancellor popular.

Sunak's not doing too badly though and its better than leaving it to your children, grand children and great grandchildren to pay....isn't it?

Don't kid yourself. Given the size of the level of borrowing, not just last and this year, the government is going to be borrowing for many years to come. It has said that many times to take advantage of the low interest rates.
 
Paying off a nations large debt is never going to make any Chancellor popular.

Sunak's not doing too badly though and its better than leaving it to your children, grand children and great grandchildren to pay....isn't it?
Is he paying off any debt though? I thought it was more a case of trying to reduce the increase by a midge's, and we are still leaving the debt to our children etc as it is.

The difficulty is minimising debt whilst maintaining growth of course. I'd rather have a Gordon Brown doing that personally, I suppose we would need Sunak to stay in position for a few years before we know how good he is, or what his real philosophy is.
 
Paying off a nations large debt is never going to make any Chancellor popular.

Sunak's not doing too badly though and its better than leaving it to your children, grand children and great grandchildren to pay....isn't it?

Hey that's a great idea.

Tell you what, why don't we start by scraping Brexit and save all that money we're pissing away on that? After all, your children grand children and great grandchildren hate the idea, and they're the ones that really matter here.
 
Don't kid yourself. Given the size of the level of borrowing, not just last and this year, the government is going to be borrowing for many years to come. It has said that many times to take advantage of the low interest rates.

Oh dear, if that is the case, I better make sure my 'stash' of £2 coins comes out of the pot-pig and goes into a 'cast iron' Trust fund for the great grandkids. :rolleyes:
 
Is he paying off any debt though? I thought it was more a case of trying to reduce the increase by a midge's, and we are still leaving the debt to our children etc as it is.

The difficulty is minimising debt whilst maintaining growth of course. I'd rather have a Gordon Brown doing that personally, I suppose we would need Sunak to stay in position for a few years before we know how good he is, or what his real philosophy is.

My view entirely.
Gordon Brown wasn't a great PM. But he was a good Chancellor and very pragmatic.
As I have mentioned before, Sunak should be judged on how he reduces the level of borrowing and debt. Anyone can throw money around in a national emergency and many fiscal policy decisions are government rather than Sunak.
 
Is he paying off any debt though?

Exactly, Sunak's doing the old three card trick, now you see it now you don't! It will all depend on how long he can borrow money cheaply!

Tell you what, why don't we start by scraping Brexit and save all that money we're pissing away on that? After all, your children grand children and great grandchildren hate the idea, and they're the ones that really matter here.

No its too late for that the money's already been spent on Brexit, it has to work now, 'sunny uplands' etc. Grandkids will love it, honest ask Boris!!