Westminster Politics

I was a 19 year old black guy when I did jury service (I'm still black, but, well, you get what I mean) and doing jury service was the exact moment I realised that the justice system was stacked against outsiders. It was depressing. The voting on Britains Got Talent had more rigour. A handful of loud middle aged white men bossed the room and said they didn't like the defendant because he looked "shifty". The rest just went along because they didn't understand what was going on and were desperate to leave since the weather was hot. The guy got sent down when he shouldn't have done, because they didn't like the look of him. I was too young to argue much against them. I felt guilty for ages afterwards for not doing so.

Even accepting that my experience might have been at the edge of the bell curve, it left me very little faith in the current system. While jurors vs judges isn't something I would particularly argue to the death over, i do see it as a 'least worst' kind of argument.


I hear you. My own experiences showed me that most people are too dumb to be able to follow the law as they are instructed. On my jury we had two women who wanted to let a murderer get off because her kids had suffered enough after she murdered their dad and they had had a tough childhood.

Thankfully the sane amongst us didn't give up and convinced them that we were there to apply the law and not to let our own feelings dictate the outcome. But it could easily have gone to a hung jury and she would have walked.
 
I was a 19 year old black guy when I did jury service (I'm still black, but, well, you get what I mean) and doing jury service was the exact moment I realised that the justice system was stacked against outsiders. It was depressing. The voting on Britains Got Talent had more rigour. A handful of loud middle aged white men bossed the room and said they didn't like the defendant because he looked "shifty". The rest just went along because they didn't understand what was going on and were desperate to leave since the weather was hot. The guy got sent down when he shouldn't have done, because they didn't like the look of him. I was too young to argue much against them. I felt guilty for ages afterwards for not doing so.

Even accepting that my experience might have been at the edge of the bell curve, it left me very little faith in the current system. While jurors vs judges isn't something I would particularly argue to the death over, i do see it as a 'least worst' kind of argument.

Fair point. With how polarised society has become these days I guess it's harder and harder to find members of society willing to set aside their own predjudices and make a judgement purely on the evidence at hand. I guess I just have an inate distrust that some out of touch old white man in a wig would be able to do likewise.

Perhaps they should be decided on Twitter. That always seems balanced and reasonable.
 
Fair point. With how polarised society has become these days I guess it's harder and harder to find members of society willing to set aside their own predjudices and make a judgement purely on the evidence at hand. I guess I just have an inate distrust that some out of touch old white man in a wig would be able to do likewise.

Perhaps they should be decided on Twitter. That always seems balanced and reasonable.

The thing with professionals is that you can assess their performances over time because they stick around. That provides for some limited scope for accountability at least. Plus they’re trained and understand the system they’re working within. Whatever limitations they may have, you have some levers to pull. Jurors come in, do it once with no training, then leave with no accountability whatsoever.

I think celebrity trial shows are the way forward. Let Simon Cowell and Cheryl Cole decide.
 
PMQs has long been about embellishment and selective truths, but Johnson just makes up some total lie on the spot and moves on. It'll be interesting to see how either Labour or the Speaker responds over time. May as well not bother with PMQs if he's going to do that.
This, he spends the entire time floundering and making up lies, heckling the opposition and pretending he is outraged, and complaining that the opposition are opposing.

Honestly he’s an embarrassment.
 
He treats mild-ish criticism as an impertinent annoyance. Which is telling. 'Born to rule'? He can't even rule himself...
 
'It's not illegal!' cry the ministers who change the law whenever the government rightly loses a court case.
 
Yet another PMQs where Boris cannot answer any questions. Farcical how he is allowed to get away with it.

He is clearly uncomfortable with being expected to answer even the most basic question.
Starmer is doing well with the limited opportunity.

I would like to see starmer pushing much harder for a public inquiry on the government handling of the Corona virus situation.
 
He is clearly uncomfortable with being expected to answer even the most basic question.
Starmer is doing well with the limited opportunity.

I would like to see starmer pushing much harder for a public inquiry on the government handling of the Corona virus situation.

I agree. Think he may be waiting for the virus to die down a bit more but we definitely need one.
 
This Robert Jenrick stuff stinks to high heaven.



Standard Tory conduct isn't it? They use their influence to profit and gain future favour. They're usually only in the role for a few years and the worst thing that happens if caught is they get demoted without much of a salary drop. Any other industry they get prosecuted for some of the behaviour.

This story isn't half as dodgy as all the covid contracts. 11m they managed to spend on the app, anyone remotely involved in IT projects is well aware that's not possible in the timeframes.
 
Blair at his best there. Wipes the floor with this BS.
Who has the last laugh?
I’d say in 2020, Farage is more influential and more loved than Blair.
Imagine how you’d have to fcuk up from that point in 2005 to reach that point!
 
This story isn't half as dodgy as all the covid contracts. 11m they managed to spend on the app, anyone remotely involved in IT projects is well aware that's not possible in the timeframes.

The sheer arrogance (or stupidity) to think British app developers could beat a global apple/google joint venture for quality, cost or speed!

£11m spent in 2 months!!! With companies owned by Cummings Leave campaign mates.

It must be a rigged piece of nepotism, with back handers to Cummings. And happens in plain sight in 2020 British Government.
 
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People should be outside the homes of these cnuts protesting their stupidity/corruption/BS.

If I lived in London I would
 
Desmond referring to the council as ‘Marxist’ is hilarious. Columnist in The Telegraph called the Nazis ‘far-left’ today, too. Conservatives really need to read more books.

Can’t see Jenrick riding this one out, after Cummings survived I imagine they’ll satiate the public’s bloodlust by sacrificing him.

Does it really matter, though? Once again the public/press focus on the individual rather than the putrid system which permits stuff like this on a regular basis. This case became public knowledge but I’d wager for every case like this there’s another 99 shady deals that go completely undetected.
 
Who has the last laugh?
I’d say in 2020, Farage is more influential and more loved than Blair.
Imagine how you’d have to fcuk up from that point in 2005 to reach that point!
Or how fecked up the world has to be
 
I was a 19 year old black guy when I did jury service (I'm still black, but, well, you get what I mean) and doing jury service was the exact moment I realised that the justice system was stacked against outsiders. It was depressing. The voting on Britains Got Talent had more rigour. A handful of loud middle aged white men bossed the room and said they didn't like the defendant because he looked "shifty". The rest just went along because they didn't understand what was going on and were desperate to leave since the weather was hot. The guy got sent down when he shouldn't have done, because they didn't like the look of him. I was too young to argue much against them. I felt guilty for ages afterwards for not doing so.

Even accepting that my experience might have been at the edge of the bell curve, it left me very little faith in the current system. While jurors vs judges isn't something I would particularly argue to the death over, i do see it as a 'least worst' kind of argument.

My wife has been tasked the last several weeks on writing an opinion on this very subject (she's a criminal barrister). Whilst your negative experience isn't isolated trust me when I say that having this power solely in the hands of judges would be a truly bad idea.

Whatever you think about the positives and negatives of Jury trials trust me when I say that the alternative is unfathomably worse. The alternative always has political connotations, irrespective of how much you try to draw the line between the legislature and the judiciary (this has been proven in conviction rates also). The power of the American Executive branch over the last 15 years has been turbo charged because of their power over the Judiciary.

That's not to say Jury trials are perfectly equitable, of course they aren't as they're a mirror image of society. However we're not talking about the perfect system, we're talking about an imperfect but impartial (relative to society) system compared with an imperfect and clearly corruptible system.

When lockdown was announced I believed that the crises would be politically hijacked for an authoritarian and controlling agenda. I heard the platitudes that it was a temporary seige on civil liberties but necessary for our security (when have we heard that before), but I was waiting for the Coup de Grâce... Trust me when I say that this is that very moment and that the failure to prevent this siege on our freedoms would be devastating for us all. Coincidentally I haven't heard the BLM movement talk about this at all (I may be wrong), but it's something that in the UK affects this community far more aggressively than police brutality.

/Edit: Essentially from how the figures can be interpreted BAME and the poorest in society are punished more severely and white collar crime is punished more leniently in the absence of jury trials
 
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More evidence for what is largely already suspected: Johnson himself is going be implicated in the deal some way or another. Jenrick will be forced to go to take the flak.
 
Our Tories with their grubby, blood soaked hands in the till yet again. Next time we're at the ballot box we should just put the X right on our foreheads instead and save them a step.
 
Just astonishing misbehaviour:

'Conservative MP Nicola Richards suggests it’s wrong for the opposition to criticise the actions of Robert Jenrick "during a global pandemic."''

'Downing Street said Boris Johnson now considered the matter "closed."''

(BBC)
 


More evidence for what is largely already suspected: Johnson himself is going be implicated in the deal some way or another. Jenrick will be forced to go to take the flak.


Why do they need permission to publish pictures, which by definition are somewhat already in the public domain? More bollocks from Auntie.

And surely saying that you have pictures that show x, y and z is the same as publishing them?
 
Just astonishing misbehaviour:

'Conservative MP Nicola Richards suggests it’s wrong for the opposition to criticise the actions of Robert Jenrick "during a global pandemic."''

'Downing Street said Boris Johnson now considered the matter "closed."''

(BBC)

Does Boris Johnson ever consider any matters open?
 
Does Boris Johnson ever consider any matters open?
The duty that a father has to look after his children? Pretty sure he must've thought his relationship was open as well when he fecked someone else whilst his wife was battling cancer.

I mean, all I'm saying is that these are the actions of a cnut. So....
 
Why do they need permission to publish pictures, which by definition are somewhat already in the public domain? More bollocks from Auntie.

And surely saying that you have pictures that show x, y and z is the same as publishing them?

Probably because the Conservative party either own the copyright on those pictures or the photographer signed something effectively saying any photos taken at what was a private event could only be published with consent of the organisers (presumably the Conservative party)

Such clauses are I think pretty standard at corporate events

So I don't think its bollocks from auntie i think its the law... and in that context I think saying they have seen pictures is not the same as breaching copyright by publishing
 
Probably because the Conservative party either own the copyright on those pictures or the photographer signed something effectively saying any photos taken at what was a private event could only be published with consent of the organisers (presumably the Conservative party)

Such clauses are I think pretty standard at corporate events

So I don't think its bollocks from auntie i think its the law... and in that context I think saying they have seen pictures is not the same as breaching copyright by publishing

Not a topic I know much about, but I was under the impression something could shared sans permission if it was in the public interest?
 
If the Torygraph BBC had pictures of Corbyn hugging Hitler in Brazil would they wait for permission, and go through the copyright channels.

Today is the first time you've ever heard the phrase publish and be damned.
 
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If the Torygraph BBC had pictures of Corbyn hugging Hitler in Brazil would they wait for permission, and go through the copyright channels.

Today is the first time you've ever heard the phrase publish and be damned.
I just wish people would stop blaming the media. Corbyn is a Hitler hugger. I consider this matter closed. ;-)
 
We are in uncharted territory if ministers exposed for corruption don't feel the need to resign.
"Johnson considers the matter closed".
These people insult us time and time again.
 
We are in uncharted territory if ministers exposed for corruption don't feel the need to resign.
"Johnson considers the matter closed".
These people insult us time and time again.

We have been for a while. They can do what they want because they've orchestrated a culture war to pull a huge swathe of the voting public to their side. If you point out the blatant corruption at best you're met with whataboutism and at worst dismissed as a sore loser, antifa, leftie snowflake.
 
We have been for a while. They can do what they want because they've orchestrated a culture war to pull a huge swathe of the voting public to their side. If you point out the blatant corruption at best you're met with whataboutism and at worst dismissed as a sore loser, antifa, leftie snowflake.

Yep. It’s classic Trumpin politics. It’s been embedded in our society now since the Brexit referendum, you can just lie your way out of anything now and there will be a section of the moronic public will go along with it. It’s a sad state of affairs but we are deeply in this shit and it will continue.
Like you say any challenge is met with the comments you mentioned. Like 17.4 was just chucked at anyone if you questioned Brexit.
 
Not a topic I know much about, but I was under the impression something could shared sans permission if it was in the public interest?
There was some case law from Ashdown vs Telegraph many years ago.... I think the conclusion was possibly under some circumstances but rare...
Ashdown won in the case and the telegraph lost under the definition of public interest
Copyright and freedom of expression: Paddy Ashdown v The Sunday Telegraph
Copyright is a property right which by definition comes into conflict with a fundamental human right: the right of freedom of expression. The Court of Appeal decided this week that on rare occasions freedom of expression will “trump” copyright, giving a public interest defence to a copyright infringement claim.
The Sunday Telegraph published extensive extracts from a confidential record which Mr (now Lord) Ashdown had made of an important meeting at 10 Downing Street in 1997. Ashdown sued the Telegraph Group for copyright infringement and breach of confidence. The High Court awarded Ashdown summary judgment, dismissing the Telegraph’s defences including defences based on freedom of expression and fair dealing. The Telegraph’s appeal failed, but the Court of Appeal’s findings on the conflict between copyright and freedom of expression establish an important principle. The Human Rights Act can, in effect if not in legal theory, override the Copyright Act.
The circumstances in which freedom of expression will prevail over copyright are rare. Copyright protects the expression of ideas, not the ideas themselves. The public interest which newspapers serve in disclosing information such as the matters referred to in Ashdown’s confidential record can normally be protected without the newspaper copying the exact words. Copyright will not be an issue in such cases.
Occasionally, however, it is necessary for a newspaper to publish documents verbatim, for example to ensure credibility. The form of the document, on such occasions, is of equal importance to the content. Even then, a newspaper may still have a fair dealing defence under the Copyright Act itself. But what if there is no fair dealing defence? Can it still be right for a newspaper to publish substantial verbatim extracts from a document?
In the Ashdown case the Court of Appeal decided that the Sunday Telegraph need only have published one or two short extracts to establish authenticity. The Sunday Telegraph had gone further than this: “the minute was deliberately filleted in order to extract colourful passages that were most likely to add flavour to the article.” This was furthering the Telegraph Group’s commercial interests in a manner which was “essentially journalistic”. But in cases where the publication of longer extracts is genuinely necessary in the public interest, newspapers will now be able to rely on their right of freedom of expression.
The court also considered the meaning of “reporting current events”, one of the fair dealing defences under the Copyright Act. It confirmed that a liberal interpretation should be put on the word “current”. A matter could be of current interest to the public even if it concerned events which had taken place some time ago. Current events do not always have to be recent events.
 
Serious question : How do we remove Boris and his cohorts?

Let’s say we want to do it before Christmas.

How would that be achieved?