Westminster Politics

11101 said:
Labour are like our injured players. When theyre out they get built up into Maradona and Pele rolled into one. You need them in power every once in a while to remind everybody why you dont want them in power at all.
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This Labour government are literally the opposite of what a Labour government should be. They’re right wing, fiscal conservatives .

You can’t have your cake and eat it. You’ve been accusing Labour of trying to bankrupt the county when they get into power for years by spending like it’s going out of fashion and now they’re in power and they are cutting funding to virtually every single public service that isn’t the NHS and you somehow think that’s a cue to roll out your tropes. They just don’t apply here, you’ve got George Osborne on steroids. If this was a Tory government you’d be sharing Telegraph and Times articles explaining why this is a good thing because state schools are currently bloated and poor people don’t need an education anyway.
 
11101 said:
Labour are like our injured players. When theyre out they get built up into Maradona and Pele rolled into one. You need them in power every once in a while to remind everybody why you dont want them in power at all.
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I dont think that's a fair analogy or even remotely accurate at all. I'd go further actually and vehemently disagree with you and say it's an absolute load of fecking bollocks.

Tony Blair made lots of improvements over the previous Tory party before him.

Yes he made mistakes with housing, immigration and the big one was his closeness to Bush and the subsequent wars in Iraq & Afghanistan. Not so much his involvement as I believe his hands were tied after 9/11. Back then the UK was the USA's closest ally and Blair had no choice but to back Bush after 9/11 and moreso after 7/7 here in the UK. A terror attack that I believe his government handled the response to extremely well. It was just the lies over the weapons of mass destruction that let him down.

I also would take his leadership over any of the Tory leaders that followed him and of course Kier now. Anyone preferring the past 14 years and any of the Tory leaders during that time over Blair or think they did better than him need a serious mental health check up.
 
Starmer must resign now!


GjV62h8WEAARoHu
 
Pexbo said:
This Labour government are literally the opposite of what a Labour government should be. They’re right wing, fiscal conservatives .

You can’t have your cake and eat it. You’ve been accusing Labour of trying to bankrupt the county when they get into power for years by spending like it’s going out of fashion and now they’re in power and they are cutting funding to virtually every single public service that isn’t the NHS and you somehow think that’s a cue to roll out your tropes. They just don’t apply here, you’ve got George Osborne on steroids. If this was a Tory government you’d be sharing Telegraph and Times articles explaining why this is a good thing because state schools are currently bloated and poor people don’t need an education anyway.
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Tax more spend more. They're doing exactly that. Just because you don't like what they're spending on this time doesn't mean they haven't jacked up public spending by 15% already.

Last time they took a strong economy and left a wreck that took years to sort out. And that was with a half competent Blair&co that just made a handful of key mistakes. This time we've got possibly the biggest bunch of chancers we've ever seen taking over a basket case. God help us when they’ve finished.
 
11101 said:
Tax more spend more. They're doing exactly that. Just because you don't like what they're spending on this time doesn't mean they haven't jacked up public spending by 15% already.

Last time they took a strong economy and left a wreck that took years to sort out. And that was with a half competent Blair&co that just made a handful of key mistakes. This time we've got possibly the biggest bunch of chancers we've ever seen taking over a basket case. God help us when they’ve finished.
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You know that the 2008 global financial crash wasn't caused by anyone in the UK government at that time, right? I mean we all know you do, but you trot out the same shite at every opportunity.
 
Thank goodness the last Tory government didn't do anything reckless like increase the national debt by over a trillion and a half whilst cutting public services until they nearly collapsed.
 
Frosty said:
Thank goodness the last Tory government didn't do anything reckless like increase the national debt by over a trillion and a half whilst cutting public services until they nearly collapsed.
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Yeah, we were foolish not to stick with that lot and give them another five years. I'm sure everything would have magically got better.
 
decorativeed said:
You know that the 2008 global financial crash wasn't caused by anyone in the UK government at that time, right? I mean we all know you do, but you trot out the same shite at every opportunity.
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I also know our exposure to it was greater than it needed to be and our response to it was slower than it should have been. As did anybody vaguely connected to it.
 
11101 said:
I also know our exposure to it was greater than it needed to be and our response to it was slower than it should have been. As did anybody vaguely connected to it.
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We were exposed to it by being one of many nations who didn't bother to properly regulate the banks. Agreed. Not so much on the rest though.

I'd say the Tory response that brought in ideological austerity policies that lowered GDP, in turn lowering the amount of tax intake, reducing our ability to pay for services and debt repayment, and following that up with Brexit, taking another huge slice off our GDP was akin to amputating a grazed leg.

This is a good summary of the situation: https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/14006/economics/can-labour-be-blamed-for-the-economic-crisis/
 
Calling Starmer and Labour right wing is extremely mental.

Can you be right wing and intent on destroying your own country and all its inhabitants?

What kind of right wing governments send public spending through the roof and increase immigration to insane levels?

redcafe is a very interesting study. Lammy could give 100bn to the Caribbean tomorrow for reparations and you’d have people on here folding their arms and saying well that’s a start..
 
decorativeed said:
We were exposed to it by being one of many nations who didn't bother to properly regulate the banks. Agreed. Not so much on the rest though.

I'd say the Tory response that brought in ideological austerity policies that lowered GDP, in turn lowering the amount of tax intake, reducing our ability to pay for services and debt repayment, and following that up with Brexit, taking another huge slice off our GDP was akin to amputating a grazed leg.

This is a good summary of the situation: https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/14006/economics/can-labour-be-blamed-for-the-economic-crisis/
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We didn't not bother to regulate the banks. We purposely chose to deregulate the banks so they could take additional risk on, make more money, pay more tax and fund the ever increasing spending plans.

Then when it all went wrong Alastair Darling sat on his hands for a full year instead of acting to minimise the impact.


Austerity was absolutely necessary post recession btw. Not for 14 years, but it was needed to get us out of the mess we were in and it worked at the time. Know who the last great proponent of austerity was? Clement Attlee.
 
Steven Seagull said:
Calling Starmer and Labour right wing is extremely mental.

Can you be right wing and intent on destroying your own country and all its inhabitants?

What kind of right wing governments send public spending through the roof and increase immigration to insane levels?

redcafe is a very interesting study. Lammy could give 100bn to the Caribbean tomorrow for reparations and you’d have people on here folding their arms and saying well that’s a start..
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I think it's never been more apparent than it is currently that you absolutely can, yes.
 
11101 said:
We didn't not bother to regulate the banks. We purposely chose to deregulate the banks so they could take additional risk on, make more money, pay more tax and fund the ever increasing spending plans.

Then when it all went wrong Alastair Darling sat on his hands for a full year instead of acting to minimise the impact.


Austerity was absolutely necessary post recession btw. Not for 14 years, but it was needed to get us out of the mess we were in and it worked at the time. Know who the last great proponent of austerity was? Clement Attlee.
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I'm not sure your timeline is right, and as far as I can see, the deregulation of the banks was a Thatcherite policy. Labour brought in new regulation with the FSA almost as soon as they came into office. Whoever was in power in 2008 would have had the same issues with the banks, and the Tories are hardly going to have been the party pushing for tighter market regulation on any industry - quite the opposite, as well you know.

Instead, when they came in, they spun the lie that the country was broke, and was in the situation uniquely, rather than having been one country amongst many that was caught up in a global crisis. And in the midst of a recession, they brought in the exact policies that could only have shrunk our GDP and exacerbated the problem. Then they allowed us to shoot ourselves in the foot with Brexit, driving a final nail in the coffin. Like the economic geniuses they are.
 
So we have a government
Cutting pensions
Increasing taxes
Increasing deportations
Increasing benefits for migrants
Paying to give away territory
Hates USA.
Loves China
Hates business
Hates landlords
Loves being soft on crime
Hates wealth

This could go on and on. This isn’t left or right. You can’t pigeonhole such nonsense
 
Steven Seagull said:
So we have a government
Cutting pensions
Increasing taxes
Increasing deportations
Increasing benefits for migrants
Paying to give away territory
Hates USA.
Loves China
Hates business
Hates landlords
Loves being soft on crime
Hates wealth

This could go on and on. This isn’t left or right. You can’t pigeonhole such nonsense
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to be fair to them, i’m not sure who this government is for. so at least they’re hitting everyone.
 
Steven Seagull said:
So we have a government
Cutting pensions
Increasing taxes
Increasing deportations
Increasing benefits for migrants
Paying to give away territory
Hates USA.
Loves China
Hates business
Hates landlords
Loves being soft on crime
Hates wealth

This could go on and on. This isn’t left or right. You can’t pigeonhole such nonsense
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I don't think your list is particularly true to reality, to be fair. And I'm not a fan of this government. It's just a weird list of nonsense.

Pensions are due to increase by 4.1% in April under this government, for example.
 
Frosty said:
Thank goodness the last Tory government didn't do anything reckless like increase the national debt by over a trillion and a half whilst cutting public services until they nearly collapsed.
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I'm glad that the Tories are out but at the same time I'm devastated that Labour have turned into a bunch of cnuts just like them.
 
decorativeed said:
I'm not sure your timeline is right, and as far as I can see, the deregulation of the banks was a Thatcherite policy. Labour brought in new regulation with the FSA almost as soon as they came into office. Whoever was in power in 2008 would have had the same issues with the banks, and the Tories are hardly going to have been the party pushing for tighter market regulation on any industry - quite the opposite, as well you know.

Instead, when they came in, they spun the lie that the country was broke, and was in the situation uniquely, rather than having been one country amongst many that was caught up in a global crisis. And in the midst of a recession, they brought in the exact policies that could only have shrunk our GDP and exacerbated the problem. Then they allowed us to shoot ourselves in the foot with Brexit, driving a final nail in the coffin. Like the economic geniuses they are.
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The FSA was created because Brown didn't like that control sat with the BoE rather than his Treasury. Didn't matter that the BoE knew what it was doing and he didn't. Deregulation is fine as long as you understand what you are deregulating. They didn't and were well known for being miles behind the banks they were supposed to be overseeing.

Osborne returned us to growth post GFC and all economic indicators were looking good and better than our peers. Then we decided to have a referendum.
 
Wilt said:
There’ll be others
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A second Labour MP has apologised for comments made in a WhatsApp chat, after Andrew Gwynne was sacked as a minister over messages he sent to the same group.

Burnley MP Oliver Ryan said in a statement that comments he made in the group "were completely unacceptable" and he regretted "not speaking out at the time".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1lv1gqgmdzo
 
Mr Pigeon said:
I'm glad that the Tories are out but at the same time I'm devastated that Labour have turned into a bunch of cnuts just like them.
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Yep. Me too. Especially given the growth of the far right in Europe.

I'm also genuinely surprised at how incompetent they seem. I was expecting loads of decisions I disagreed with (which is fine, I'm hardly representative of mainstream political views), but I was also expecting a plan and a wider vision beyond 'growth'.
 
Mr Pigeon said:
I'm glad that the Tories are out but at the same time I'm devastated that Labour have turned into a bunch of cnuts just like them.
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It just seems ridiculous, you aren’t going to out Tory the Tory’s, what’s the point? Reform are doing that and now the Tory’s are finally in a vote splitting position.
 
Steven Seagull said:
So we have a government
Cutting pensions
Increasing taxes
Increasing deportations
Increasing benefits for migrants
Paying to give away territory
Hates USA.
Loves China
Hates business
Hates landlords
Loves being soft on crime
Hates wealth

This could go on and on. This isn’t left or right. You can’t pigeonhole such nonsense
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Wokeanistan.
 
Steven Seagull said:
Which parts of my list do you take issue with? Other than the hates USA loves china bit?
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Well, other than the bit about pensions I already mentioned, they're queuing up to kiss Trump's arse, nothing they've done suggests they are going to tackle the landlordism problems, they've locked up protesters for the longest sentences ever seen, so hardly change in policy on crime.

Hates wealth? We literally just had them abandon plans to tax ultra rich non-doms after a little bit of pressure. Hate business? They're racing to climb into bed with the likes of Blackrock and flailing around trying to attract investment by endorsing AI bullshit powered by untested nuclear tech!

I must have also missed them increasing benefits for migrants too.
 
Frosty said:
Yep. Me too. Especially given the growth of the far right in Europe.

I'm also genuinely surprised at how incompetent they seem. I was expecting loads of decisions I disagreed with (which is fine, I'm hardly representative of mainstream political views), but I was also expecting a plan and a wider vision beyond 'growth'.
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This has to come first, otherwise its a perpetual state of Austerity... 'lite' with Labour, 'full fat' with Tories and it will be 'sh** for breakfast' with Reform.
 
11101 said:
We didn't not bother to regulate the banks. We purposely chose to deregulate the banks so they could take additional risk on, make more money, pay more tax and fund the ever increasing spending plans.

Then when it all went wrong Alastair Darling sat on his hands for a full year instead of acting to minimise the impact.


Austerity was absolutely necessary post recession btw. Not for 14 years, but it was needed to get us out of the mess we were in and it worked at the time. Know who the last great proponent of austerity was? Clement Attlee.
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You really do have a distorted view of the past. The Conservatives were actively campaigning to lessen regulation at the time. If they had won the 2005 GE, then how much worse would it have been?

And no, austerity wasn't needed, and it certainly didn't help. Austerity has its place, namely when a country is experiencing a sustained period of economic growth, but implementing it around a recession/recovery is just gross incompetence. It's basic Keynesian economics that's backed up by easily obtained empirical evidence of the time. The US, China, and later Germany all implemented huge stimulus packages. Compare their outcome to the UK, Greece (though not necessarily their choice), Spain and Italy, who pursued harsh austerity measures.
 
Maticmaker said:
This has to come first, otherwise its a perpetual state of Austerity... 'lite' with Labour, 'full fat' with Tories and it will be 'sh** for breakfast' with Reform.
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I think we all know that, it's more that all they're doing is saying the word, rather than making it possible.
 
If economic growth was really their key priority then there is a still a big white elephant in the room that they are scared to talk about. Which makes me think growth isn't really their priority.
 
ivaldo said:
You really do have a distorted view of the past. The Conservatives were actively campaigning to lessen regulation at the time. If they had won the 2005 GE, then how much worse would it have been?

And no, austerity wasn't needed, and it certainly didn't help. Austerity has its place, namely when a country is experiencing a sustained period of economic growth, but implementing it around a recession/recovery is just gross incompetence. It's basic Keynesian economics that's backed up by easily obtained empirical evidence of the time. The US, China, and later Germany all implemented huge stimulus packages. Compare their outcome to the UK, Greece (though not necessarily their choice), Spain and Italy, who pursued harsh austerity measures.
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Who cares what the shadow cabinet says they'll do? We all know both sides in opposition say anything they think will get a soundbite.

Austerity worked very well post recession and any economic indicator you choose will show that. We left the last Labour government with massively inflated public spending commitments and it was imperative that was brought back under control. As you mention Germany, from mid 2011 UK GDP growth outstripped Germany in 13 of the next 17 quarters.
 
decorativeed said:
I think we all know that, it's more that all they're doing is saying the word, rather than making it possible.
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They are not magicians, saying something doesn't make it so. It is very clear that without growth in the economy, the best that can be hoped for is austerity 'lite'. Any chance of 'moving the dial' permantly in favour of the majority of the population, needs the impetus of sustained growth.

I would say to anyone who calls them self a Labour supporter (left, right or centre) now is the time to stop moaning and put your shoulder to the wheel. If it doesn't happen in the next decade then God help those now under the age of thirty.

The danger isn't from the Tory's they are a spent force, its from Reform.
 
Maticmaker said:
They are not magicians, saying something doesn't make it so. It is very clear that without growth in the economy, the best that can be hoped for is austerity 'lite'. Any chance of 'moving the dial' permantly in favour of the majority of the population, needs the impetus of sustained growth.

I would say to anyone who calls them self a Labour supporter (left, right or centre) now is the time to stop moaning and put your shoulder to the wheel. If it doesn't happen in the next decade then God help those now under the age of thirty.

The danger isn't from the Tory's they are a spent force, its from Reform.
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Well that's exactly my point. They're saying words and following up with either no action or actions that actively work against their goals.

I'd like to see them try things out like temporarily reducing VAT on things like restaurant meals and alcohol in pubs, to help the hospitality industry, getting people out and using them rather than watching it all collapse like a house of cards, shrinking the economy further still.

Or maybe announcing schemes that aren't pure fantasy like AI centres and untested SMR nuclear power stations and carbon capture. They could be plowing that pledged money into domestic energy conservation schemes, employing local contractors. Or building some social housing so that councils have assets and financial security rather than getting fleeced by private landlords for decades to come.
 
11101 said:
Who cares what the shadow cabinet says they'll do? We all know both sides in opposition say anything they think will get a soundbite.

Austerity worked very well post recession and any economic indicator you choose will show that. We left the last Labour government with massively inflated public spending commitments and it was imperative that was brought back under control. As you mention Germany, from mid 2011 UK GDP growth outstripped Germany in 13 of the next 17 quarters.
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You sound like David Cameron & George Osbourne's PR spokesperson!
 
11101 said:
Tax more spend more. They're doing exactly that. Just because you don't like what they're spending on this time doesn't mean they haven't jacked up public spending by 15% already.

Last time they took a strong economy and left a wreck that took years to sort out. And that was with a half competent Blair&co that just made a handful of key mistakes. This time we've got possibly the biggest bunch of chancers we've ever seen taking over a basket case. God help us when they’ve finished.
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Forget the rosette (they don't deserve to wear any), what should the UK government be doing in your opinion? If the Tories won the last election, what would they be doing right now?
 
Steven Seagull said:
Calling Starmer and Labour right wing is extremely mental.

Can you be right wing and intent on destroying your own country and all its inhabitants?

What kind of right wing governments send public spending through the roof and increase immigration to insane levels?

redcafe is a very interesting study. Lammy could give 100bn to the Caribbean tomorrow for reparations and you’d have people on here folding their arms and saying well that’s a start..
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What a fecking joke. I wish that Labour were anywhere near as left wing as you think it is.
 
Labour saying things the UKIP of 2010, when I came to this country, would never say.
 
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11101 said:
The FSA was created because Brown didn't like that control sat with the BoE rather than his Treasury. Didn't matter that the BoE knew what it was doing and he didn't. Deregulation is fine as long as you understand what you are deregulating. They didn't and were well known for being miles behind the banks they were supposed to be overseeing.

Osborne returned us to growth post GFC and all economic indicators were looking good and better than our peers. Then we decided to have a referendum.
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It's interesting how much blame you put on Labour for the aftermath of the 08 crash but Brexit, which surely has to go down as one of the most spectacular acts of self sabotage by any country in recent history, is waved away as "we decided to have a referendum", and not as something the Tories should be blamed for.
 
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