Westminster Politics

Paul the Wolf said:
But if there is no alternative and the public continue to want the same thing, time after time, the UK is stuck in this spiral caused by FPTP voting system. To get out of this if you don't change the voting system you need a charismatic strong leader who can convince the public that a change of approach for the better is needed. Not more of the same but done differently. Starmer will be swallowed up and spat out within three years. A new leader might offer something different.
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Clutching at straws here, are we Paul?

Starmer's getting into his stride, one or two wobbles, but no change in the overall predicted voting in the polls.

This latest 'gutsy approach to face up with Sunak and with one of his own (now ex- MP's)... to call him out over one of Rishi's 'front and centre promises' suggest Sir Keir is readying to strike the GE battlefield colours and encouraging everybody to join in... repent and come and join us! ;)
 
RedSky said:
It's infuriating to me that the Rwanda bollocks has become such a huge policy when the NHS is at it's knees. This GE should all be about the plan to recover the NHS from the brink rather small boats entering Dover. It's actually tragic how out of touch these fecking Politicians are.
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Starmer's been brainwashed like everyone else seems to be - you read that he's going to stop the Rwanda scheme - finally some common sense - and then read what he's proposing - and then hold your head in despair.

If immigration was the issue that scared the British public to death - why nobody mentions the 1.2million legal immigrants? the totally unknown number of real illegal immigrants, visa overstayers etc but instead concentrate on a tiny number of people on a small boat who even in Starmer's rhetoric are threatening the Uk's border security.

The real issue is how are they going to fix the economy, public services and get out of the Brexit death spiral - for which they seem to have no (sensible) answers whatsoever.
 
Maticmaker said:
Clutching at straws here, are we Paul?

Starmer's getting into his stride, one or two wobbles, but no change in the overall predicted voting in the polls.

This latest 'gutsy approach to face up with Sunak and with one of his own (now ex- MP's)... to call him out over one of Rishi's 'front and centre promises' suggest Sir Keir is readying to strike the GE battlefield colours and encouraging everybody to join in... repent and come and join us! ;)
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Starmer will regret this move because he's so naïve, but it's just a small sign of how weak and insecure he is. So he's now got his own Labour candidate in Dover plus Elphicke in the same consituency. Elphicke's a nutcase. When the small boats increase over the summer and the EU introduce the EES in the Autumn plus the usual hold-ups since Brexit during the holidays - I don't think Elphicke will be able to control herself.

There's no danger of him losing the election in 2024, as I said before, a three legged donkey will win for Labour. I'm thinking 2024-2029. Having failed to implement his Tory like policies the public will rather have the real thing in 2029.
 
RedSky said:
It's infuriating to me that the Rwanda bollocks has become such a huge policy when the NHS is at it's knees. This GE should all be about the plan to recover the NHS from the brink rather small boats entering Dover. It's actually tragic how out of touch these fecking Politicians are.
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Yes, it is bollocks, and that's why Starmer's calling Sunak out on it; even if some people were legally deported it would barely dent the numbers wanting to come illegally and/or legally. Immigration now has to be dealt with properly and Starmer is signalling he knows that. Proper routes made available for asylum/other legally entitled migrants and an end to illegal small boats, these being stopped or greatly reduced by a proper and sufficiently power full approach... and Sunak with his 'batshit' Rwanda plans has already identified the money.

The NHS needs urgent attention, and with longer term 'injections' of finance and staffing, which it will get from Labour, but not from the Tories, who if they do survive will go even stronger on privatising the NHS. However, Labour has to win and win big at the GE otherwise the Tories even in defeat, will have blunted the edge of Labour's transforming sword
 
Maticmaker said:
To me Starmer is just beginning to 'lengthen his stride', ready for the GE starting whistle to blow.

The welcoming of Natalie Elphicke, despite objections from within his ranks, and visiting her in Dover, he is in effect parking his tanks on Sunak's lawn..... "At the GE you want to make Rwanda the answer to small boats, come on then let's do that".

Or perhaps doing a Mike Summerbee, and getting his retaliation in first :lol:
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I think because of Sunak's pledges it makes sense, puts the Tories on the back foot and probably helps reform.

I am despite my support for him not totally convinced on Starmer as a PM but to think Corbyn was a better leader of a mainstream center-left party is delusional.

There is this group of extreme left wingers/pressure groups who have come up with ideologies they claim as progressive even when they are not, but if you disagree with them you must be right wing hence the red tory nonsense.

All to play for six months out, no one would have thought that after JC.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Having failed to implement his Tory like policies the public will rather have the real thing in 2029.
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You take my breath away Paul you really do!! :lol:

I will accept that scenario might just play out if, with only a small win at the 2024 GE, Labour has to apply only emergency treatment and is unable to 'move the dial'. The public are fickle and may well return the running of the nation to "the natural party of power" :rolleyes:
 
Maticmaker said:
You take my breath away Paul you really do!! :lol:

I will accept that scenario might just play out if, with only a small win at the 2024 GE, Labour has to apply only emergency treatment and is unable to 'move the dial'. The public are fickle and may well return the running of the nation to "the natural party of power" :rolleyes:
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As I said before it's nothing to do with the size of the majority. Look at the Tories - they cleaned up in 2019 and look where they will be in 2024.
So what do we know so far.
Brexit - no, it's never going to work. Much worse to come in the coming years.
No money according to Labour for public services , NHS, can't do anything.
Climate, most of that seems to be abandoned apart from some windfarms that no-one's interested in investing in - now too expensive and not viable. There are still about 50 farms yet to be completed from tory plans.
Freeports - this is a disaster yet to happen that Starmer seems keen on - something for the British public to discover in due course.
Immigration - needed. Asylum seekers - still no legal routes according to Starmer, just him chasing round Europe looking for criminal gangs. Seriously. this is supposed to stop people wanting to come to the UK. It's only made to a major issue because of Sunak and Starmer and all the other idiotic politicians to be used as scapegoats.

That's just scratching the surface. There needs to be radical change and that's not happening with Starmer.
I've absolutely no idea what you're expecting to happen under your moving the dial.
 
RedSky said:
It's infuriating to me that the Rwanda bollocks has become such a huge policy when the NHS is at it's knees. This GE should all be about the plan to recover the NHS from the brink rather small boats entering Dover. It's actually tragic how out of touch these fecking Politicians are.
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To be fair, we've got a situation with climate change that is threatening to cause worldwide food shortages and our government are spending their time debating and legistalting about the signs on toilet doors.
 
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Paul the Wolf said:
I've absolutely no idea what you're expecting to happen under your moving the dial.
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The sort of legislation that improves the lives of millions not just a few, e.g NHS Act and Education Act after WW2, subsequently changed and vastly improved the lives of millions of ordinary people, giving them education opportunities and health care provision their parents and grandparents could only have dreamed of.
This has to happen again, this time it will probably be housing/land/building etc., enough homes, properly built and insulated available to suit the needs of the majority, including those who do not have homes now, this could well be the priority.
The rights of landholders will be reformed, to prevent obstruction and hoarding of land, of construction companies, of anybody or anything which may prevent, or has prevented in the past, a suitable fair and equitable national housing policy, being implemented.
Probably also taking energy and water industries back under some sort of government control, so that upgraded national supply networks can be established and brought in to meet the needs of the future specifically climate change etc. and also information technology it's uses and control properly established and regulated.

Hence I would suspect the dial needs to (start/to) move on;
a) re-establishing and upgrading of Health and Social care provision and end of life care (for all)
b) re- introduction of an Education reform program including the upgrade of both buildings and equipment and the establishment of relevant levels of attainment and provision from Early Years through Primary, Secondary and Tertiary (Further /Higher) to Lifetime learning/retraining.
c) Control of land/building planning/construction/ servicing to provide everyone with a home, backed by law.
d) Control of energy and water provision, including nation wide interchangeable network provision to plan and provide or the future, in particular the effects of climate changes.

Clearly such an agenda cannot be even started (overall) in one term, it will need at least two/three, but a start has to be made in term one and is possible if the political will (and 'clout' in parliament) is there. Therefore a massive majority is need to overcome the inertia and to start to move the dial.

Paul before you start on about the economy, yes attention will need to be given, to undoing as far as possible, damage done via Brexit, via Covid and by the increasing prospect of expansion of wars in Europe and the middle east. Almost a government of national unity might be needed and some of Starmer's latest comments/actions also could be viewed in that way... repent and come and join us!
 
Maticmaker said:
The sort of legislation that improves the lives of millions not just a few, e.g NHS Act and Education Act after WW2, subsequently changed and vastly improved the lives of millions of ordinary people, giving them education opportunities and health care provision their parents and grandparents could only have dreamed of.
This has to happen again, this time it will probably be housing/land/building etc., enough homes, properly built and insulated available to suit the needs of the majority, including those who do not have homes now, this could well be the priority.
The rights of landholders will be reformed, to prevent obstruction and hoarding of land, of construction companies, of anybody or anything which may prevent, or has prevented in the past, a suitable fair and equitable national housing policy, being implemented.
Probably also taking energy and water industries back under some sort of government control, so that upgraded national supply networks can be established and brought in to meet the needs of the future specifically climate change etc. and also information technology it's uses and control properly established and regulated.

Hence I would suspect the dial needs to (start/to) move on;
a) re-establishing and upgrading of Health and Social care provision and end of life care (for all)
b) re- introduction of an Education reform program including the upgrade of both buildings and equipment and the establishment of relevant levels of attainment and provision from Early Years through Primary, Secondary and Tertiary (Further /Higher) to Lifetime learning/retraining.
c) Control of land/building planning/construction/ servicing to provide everyone with a home, backed by law.
d) Control of energy and water provision, including nation wide interchangeable network provision to plan and provide or the future, in particular the effects of climate changes.

Clearly such an agenda cannot be even started (overall) in one term, it will need at least two/three, but a start has to be made in term one and is possible if the political will (and 'clout' in parliament) is there. Therefore a massive majority is need to overcome the inertia and to start to move the dial.

Paul before you start on about the economy, yes attention will need to be given, to undoing as far as possible, damage done via Brexit, via Covid and by the increasing prospect of expansion of wars in Europe and the middle east. Almost a government of national unity might be needed and some of Starmer's latest comments/actions also could be viewed in that way... repent and come and join us!
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Yes it's all very well to hope for such things. But Starmer gives no sign of doing very much.
My main concern is that he is so naïve - there are plenty of people who don't like him for all sorts of reasons that he's voluntarily given them but that's another story.
It's not only Tories and Corbynites that don't rate him.

If he's genuinely intending to do what you hope I really don't see him personally lasting even one term. We shall see.
 
Jericholyte2 said:
Horrific, that the Tories knew about this for four years, kept it from public, then released it after her defection to a Party that would have no way of knowing about it.
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Yes, almost like it’s a risk taking on toxic Tory MPs. Not like she had a host of comments in support of her sex offender ex-husband that should be a red flag to begin with.

Still stand that this was a stupid, short-sighted, defection to accept.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Yes it's all very well to hope for such things. But Starmer gives no sign of doing very much.
My main concern is that he is so naïve - there are plenty of people who don't like him for all sorts of reasons that he's voluntarily given them but that's another story.
It's not only Tories and Corbynites that don't rate him.

If he's genuinely intending to do what you hope I really don't see him personally lasting even one term. We shall see.
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Of course not, not yet, but I think there are signs he is getting into his stride and as the GE draws ever closer we shall see a more confident leader emerging. He will not make promises only suggestions, because crucially it all depends on his majority.
He has to 'hoover up' as many votes as he can, he knows he will lose some left wingers in Labour, but they always cut their noses off to spite their face, he will look to dislodge some Tories some of the ones heading for the Lib Dems, but who really don't want to waste their vote, maybe some of those reticent 'red wall' voters who are being tempted by Reform, in fact any and all who don't want the Tory's running the country anymore.

This next GE will be crucial for the next 20 to 25 years (IMO), because the world situations, let alone the UK's problems are getting worse. Wars and famine in the aftermath are only part of it, climate change is happening now and whilst there are still things that can be done to slow it down, it cannot be stopped. Stability is required in Governments to be able to plan cohesively over the next quarter century. You need big majorities for that and that's what Starmer's after when the dust settles the day after the GE.
 
Maticmaker said:
Of course not, not yet, but I think there are signs he is getting into his stride and as the GE draws ever closer we shall see a more confident leader emerging. He will not make promises only suggestions, because crucially it all depends on his majority.
He has to 'hoover up' as many votes as he can, he knows he will lose some left wingers in Labour, but they always cut their noses off to spite their face, he will look to dislodge some Tories some of the ones heading for the Lib Dems, but who really don't want to waste their vote, maybe some of those reticent 'red wall' voters who are being tempted by Reform, in fact any and all who don't want the Tory's running the country anymore.

This next GE will be crucial for the next 20 to 25 years (IMO), because the world situations, let alone the UK's problems are getting worse. Wars and famine in the aftermath are only part of it, climate change is happening now and whilst there are still things that can be done to slow it down, it cannot be stopped. Stability is required in Governments to be able to plan cohesively over the next quarter century. You need big majorities for that and that's what Starmer's after when the dust settles the day after the GE.
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Labour will win the election. But as I said, It's not only left-wing voters he's losing. There are many different factions he seems to have put their noses out of joint. And all because he always seems to come to the wrong conclusion/ decision either through his own naïvety or bad advice - from Brexit to middle east conflict to immigration to climate to nationalisation to saying he's not got any money to spend because of fiscal rules.

This is happening before he gets elected when he has somewhat of a free chance to say something positive and sensible. When in government the pressure will be considerably more intense.
 


Significantly lower morals than Glazer's Manchester United :lol:
But, and tbc I'm not saying this sarcastically, that recruit is worth some extra % in the polls because of the migrant stuff, so worth it for most people.
 
That'sHernandez said:
While I don't agree with accepting her into the Labour Party, it is somewhat pathetic that the media only report on this with the ferocity it deserves when she does switch from the Conservatives
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The campaign will be brutal. Most of our election law dates from the 19th century. We have little to no rules about AI fakes, social media, and so on.
 
Frosty said:
The campaign will be brutal. Most of our election law dates from the 19th century. We have little to no rules about AI fakes, social media, and so on.
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I think what might be even worse than the actual fake & AI stuff will be that people will gradually turn against factual reporting too, with 'don't believe in experts' and Trump's teflon 'fake news' stuff. Leading to everyone believing only what they want to believe, as now of course but on steroids. Quite frightening.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
This is happening before he gets elected when he has somewhat of a free chance to say something positive and sensible. When in government the pressure will be considerably more intense.
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I think the public are fed up with politicians that say one thing that appears positive and sensible when canvassing votes, but then do another when in power, when faced with reality. Starmer is making suggestions now, he's not really promising anything, because he knows what lies ahead will be difficult even with a large majority, it will take around a decade at least to just overcome the inertia. To move the dial at all will require lots of things to happen the first of which is to get a large majority in the GE.
 
711 said:
I think what might be even worse than the actual fake & AI stuff will be that people will gradually turn against factual reporting too, with 'don't believe in experts' and Trump's teflon 'fake news' stuff. Leading to everyone believing only what they want to believe, as now of course but on steroids. Quite frightening.
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I agree with this view, but would add the comment and question what is 'factual reporting'? In today's 24/7 news-cycle the editors are the controllers of 'facts', of what is presented and they have a schedule and policy line to follow. I would prefer something like the old days when the news headlines only were reported... not edited

e.g.
(1) "The PM met with XYZ today, a statement will be issued later by No.10"

Not (2) "The PM met with XYZ today a statement will be issued later by No.10, but we now go over to our political reporter/editor to find out what( s/he thinks) was discussed and what (s/he thinks) was unlikely to have been discussed".

The statement (1) from No.10 might well be biased, but essentially it needs to be true. The reader can judge for themselves.
The statement (in 1) will or could be read later, but the editor will have added their perspective, so the reader/viewer is getting their take on things, and the truth may well be found to be twice removed

However, I suppose its basically the lazy way most of us want to receive our news?
 
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