Westminster Politics

Eric_the_Red99 said:
The problem with pandering to hard right wing voters who care mainly about immigration (which is clearly what the Elphicke thing is all about) for the short term purpose of winning an election, is that these voters will expect you to deliver what they want, which is zero net immigration and no asylum at all.
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That’s what you’re missing. These people are not hard right wing.

I have a problem with immigration. You do. Everyone in this thread does.

Our system is in a state of chaos, we don’t process, we have people dying in our waters, we don’t have a functioning system, we are cruel, uncaring and inept.

The ‘hard right’ that you describe, we’re normal people two decades ago. They’ve been radicalised. It IS the job of an adult political party to deradicalise and educate.

Starmer has came out, using the defection as evidence of the Tories being fecked, and announced the scrapping of Rwanda, with a full end to end plan with regards to how a real country should both treat people, AND manage its borders.

Win as many votes as possible. Change the country. That’s it. He’s not going to pander to racists. But he clearly wants to show those ‘lost’ people that we can be both compassionate, effective, and in control again. It’s good language that’s not aimed at you and I. It’ll work.
 
dumbo said:
High fiving Elphicke is the the equivalent of making monkey noises towards student protestors - no good rhyme or reason, just a good opportunity for some obscene, mindless trolling at the expense of your opponents.
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Have a day off
Give your head a wobble
Go touch some grass
Take your hand off it

Or any other activity that sees you reconsider the insanity you’re trotting out.
 
UK Home Office revokes visa of Palestinian student after protest speech
Dana Abuqamar, who lost 15 family members in Gaza, said the Home Office revoked her visa on ‘security grounds’


The UK government has revoked the student visa of a Palestinian student who lost relatives in Gaza after she spoke at a demonstration at the University of Manchester.

Dana Abuqamar, a law student who heads the Friends of Palestine Society at the University of Manchester, said the UK government revoked her visa on “national security” grounds, after claiming she was a risk to public safety.

“The claim they are making is baseless and violates my rights as a resident here in the UK. My legal team has lodged a human rights appeal against this decision to revoke my student visa in my last and final year as a law student,” Abuqamar said, speaking to Al Jazeera English, confirming that her visa had been revoked.

Last year, Abuqamar revealed that she had lost at least 15 relatives in Gaza after the Israeli army bombed a three-storey building in the besieged enclave.

“During this genocide, the UK Home Office decided to revoke my student visa following public statements supporting the Palestinian right to exercise under international law to resist oppression and break through the siege that was illegally placed on Gaza for over 16 years,” said Abuqamar.

UK Home Office revokes visa of Palestinian student after protest speech | Middle East Eye
 
My understanding of the defection is she has apologised for the things she said defending her former husband. Seemed quite contrite to me and it can't have been the easiest thing to find out about your husband so I'm sure it would take a while to adjust to the new reality. Don't like spouse blaming generally.

Might have lead to a bit of soul searching.

Either way she is done in six months.
 
Frosty said:
I don't see Starmer as a big picture politician, especially after the stories about him as Shadow Brexit Secretary.

That said, the team around him are full of those thinkers: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/07/whos-who-in-keir-starmers-reshaped-top-team.

I know his Director of Communications, Matthew Doyle, worked on some constituency campaigns in the South East in the 2017 election (despite being a Spad for Blair and not liking Corbyn). I volunteered on a couple and got to know how he worked a little. He is extremely able and focused on this 'big picture' thinking. If this is the plan I can see it being driven from the backroom team, rather than any specific masterplan from the Leader.

Of course, there is a skill in appointing the right people to run the Party too.
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I know its the hope that kills you but he has run a large govt department before and has more experience at building teams and policy than people will credit him with.
 
Why there is this need to Apu bullet meme yourselves for Kier Starmer I can't fathom. These sensitive souls so triggered by any and all criticism of Starmer running these exhausting defences of their guy are strange folk.

This is victory lap territory for you now, just take the win.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
I think this is so wrong. I get your wider points and your opinions are fair but this is just off.
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Fair enough, but beyond the cynical "it shows Reform voters that they can vote for Labour, cos Elphicke", which I doubt it does, what is the actual upside to Labour long term? It's a divisive move, just look at all the briefings in the press at the moment.
 
The Corinthian said:
UK Home Office revokes visa of Palestinian student after protest speech
Dana Abuqamar, who lost 15 family members in Gaza, said the Home Office revoked her visa on ‘security grounds’


The UK government has revoked the student visa of a Palestinian student who lost relatives in Gaza after she spoke at a demonstration at the University of Manchester.

Dana Abuqamar, a law student who heads the Friends of Palestine Society at the University of Manchester, said the UK government revoked her visa on “national security” grounds, after claiming she was a risk to public safety.

“The claim they are making is baseless and violates my rights as a resident here in the UK. My legal team has lodged a human rights appeal against this decision to revoke my student visa in my last and final year as a law student,” Abuqamar said, speaking to Al Jazeera English, confirming that her visa had been revoked.

Last year, Abuqamar revealed that she had lost at least 15 relatives in Gaza after the Israeli army bombed a three-storey building in the besieged enclave.

“During this genocide, the UK Home Office decided to revoke my student visa following public statements supporting the Palestinian right to exercise under international law to resist oppression and break through the siege that was illegally placed on Gaza for over 16 years,” said Abuqamar.

UK Home Office revokes visa of Palestinian student after protest speech | Middle East Eye
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Worth stating that the UK courts do not question decisions made on national security grounds. Democratic decision making at its finest.
 
The Boy said:
It is sad to see, but it is how you win elections in the UK
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Starmer was in no danger of losing the election. Although he's trying his best.
He's setting himself up for an epic failure whilst in government though.

The most disturbing is that suddenly everyone believes what Elphicke says.
She's a nutcase and will be certainly more trouble than Starmer has bargained for.
 
Spark said:
Fair enough, but beyond the cynical "it shows Reform voters that they can vote for Labour, cos Elphicke", which I doubt it does, what is the actual upside to Labour long term? It's a divisive move, just look at all the briefings in the press at the moment.
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It's a short term move until the election. If it serves to destabilise Sunak a little bit more then the long term upside will be reflected in the size of the majority.
 
dumbo said:
Why there is this need to Apu bullet meme yourselves for Kier Starmer I can't fathom. These sensitive souls so triggered by any and all criticism of Starmer running these exhausting defences of their guy are strange folk.

This is victory lap territory for you now, just take the win.
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You could call them fanbois, that would teach them a lesson.

My heart says Starmer should have told Elphicke to feck off, but I get that's not the best way to convert Tory voters, so on balance I think Labour could have handled the defection better by accepting it, but not making a fuss or highlighting it. Took me a while to come to that conclusion though.
 
dumbo said:
Why there is this need to Apu bullet meme yourselves for Kier Starmer I can't fathom. These sensitive souls so triggered by any and all criticism of Starmer running these exhausting defences of their guy are strange folk.

This is victory lap territory for you now, just take the win.
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I am not going to defend starmer, but I would imagine there is still genuine fear that we get the (actual) Tories again. That's all I can think it is.
 
Spark said:
Fair enough, but beyond the cynical "it shows Reform voters that they can vote for Labour, cos Elphicke", which I doubt it does, what is the actual upside to Labour long term? It's a divisive move, just look at all the briefings in the press at the moment.
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Long-term, doesn't matter it just weakens your opponent, it will be old news inside of a week. You're taking it all too seriously, it's a huge undermining blow to the PM. Two defections in two weeks and I forsee a couple more incoming.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
My understanding of the defection is she has apologised for the things she said defending her former husband. Seemed quite contrite to me and it can't have been the easiest thing to find out about your husband so I'm sure it would take a while to adjust to the new reality. Don't like spouse blaming generally.

Might have lead to a bit of soul searching.

Either way she is done in six months.
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This is just to tell others "just shut up or you know what it might happen to you"
 
Kinsella said:
It really is a ridiculous electoral system when Reform UK (whatever one thinks about them) receive 13% of the vote...but no seats. :wenger:
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There is never an incentive for a winning party to change the system. The Tories actually do have a big incentive to do it now (18% votes 2% seats according to this), but it will hurt them in 2029/34, and in the long run generally.
 
berbatrick said:
There is never an incentive for a winning party to change the system. The Tories actually do have a big incentive to do it now (18% votes 2% seats according to this), but it will hurt them in 2029/34, and in the long run generally.
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I get that but it's the seeming lack of interest or enthusiasm amongst the public that really gets me. The stock answer from the political parties is that the first past the post system produces strong and stable government...and the public more or less parrots this received opinion, even though such claims are completely discredited.

There's just a different cultural outlook on such things in Britain I suppose.
 
Kinsella said:
I get that but it's the seeming lack of interest or enthusiasm amongst the public that really gets me. The stock answer from the political parties is that the first past the post system produces strong and stable government...and the public more or less parrots this received opinion, even though such claims are completely discredited.

There's just a different cultural outlook on such things in Britain I suppose.
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You are right about what is the stock answer. It is laughable considering what has happened since 2015 alone. There is an innate conservatism about the system. It drives me to distraction. It also doesn't help that we don't have a constitution is a normal sense or an education system that teaches future citizens about how the country is run and basically like voting and civics.
 
Kinsella said:
I get that but it's the seeming lack of interest or enthusiasm amongst the public that really gets me. The stock answer from the political parties is that the first past the post system produces strong and stable government...and the public more or less parrots this received opinion, even though such claims are completely discredited.

There's just a different cultural outlook on such things in Britain I suppose.
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The British public are generally blind to vote % as all they've ever known is number of seats won = how popular a party is in an election.

Prime example was the last GE. Tories got 43% of the popular vote but due to the number of seats won under FPTP, the concesus is that a huge majority of people voted for them. In a true PR system they wouldn't have been able to form a government.

Under a PR system the Tories would be wiped out. Labour would splinter into at least 2 parties. As they are the only shows in town, they'll never allow it to be on the agenda.
 
FPTP isn't the main problem in politics, that would be money. Corruption and funding via special interest groups and lobbyists.

There isn't a perfect system and we in the UK are definitely having a moment politically and institutionally. I don't see PR in Scotland as producing better governance or intrinsically more democratic outcomes, as a comparison.

FPTP has strengths which the people seem to prefer and to me that is all that matters.

I think its hold on UK thinking is about mandate and means rather than pure proportionalism.
 


How in the world do people think he's a better leader than Corbyn? I know Labour will likely win any GE but that's going to be a freebie given the absolute sh*t the Tories have the put the country into and nothing to do with Stamer himself. You can put a donkey in his place and Labour would still win.
 
hasanejaz88 said:


How in the world do people think he's a better leader than Corbyn? I know Labour will likely win any GE but that's going to be a freebie given the absolute sh*t the Tories have the put the country into and nothing to do with Stamer himself. You can put a donkey in his place and Labour would still win.
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It's so bizarre how brazenly politicians just completely ignore questions and give a prepared response and journalists just let them get away with it.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
I know Labour will likely win any GE but that's going to be a freebie given the absolute sh*t the Tories have the put the country into and nothing to do with Stamer himself.
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I think that's a bit unfair, you are absolutely right that the Tories have created their own destruction, but the size of Starmer's victory will be interesting and will have quite a lot to do with him trying to make Labour as small a target as possible in the eyes of all voters except the far left.
 
hasanejaz88 said:


How in the world do people think he's a better leader than Corbyn? I know Labour will likely win any GE but that's going to be a freebie given the absolute sh*t the Tories have the put the country into and nothing to do with Stamer himself. You can put a donkey in his place and Labour would still win.
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They wouldn't be getting 50% of the vote without him moving to the right generally but especially on immigration, Brexit, culture war issues, etc.
 
berbatrick said:
They wouldn't be getting 50% of the vote without him moving to the right generally but especially on immigration, Brexit, culture war issues, etc.
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Starmer isn't a popular figure. He and no party, not even the Tories get 50% of the vote. So by what he's said so far, he's going to have approximately the same policies but do them better than the Tories. He's either in the wrong party or the UK is completely f*cked for ever more.

With no bias I have seen what he's said and what he's proposed regarding Brexit, immigration, small boats, climate etc, free ports, economy, NHS etc. Beyond hopeless. But he'll get voted in at the GE and Labour will be voted out in 2029. Labour have the wrong leader. Although who is the right one, who knows?
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Starmer isn't a popular figure. He and no party, not even the Tories get 50% of the vote. So by what he's said so far, he's going to have approximately the same policies but do them better than the Tories. He's either in the wrong party or the UK is completely f*cked for ever more.

With no bias I have seen what he's said and what he's proposed regarding Brexit, immigration, small boats, climate etc, free ports, economy, NHS etc. Beyond hopeless. But he'll get voted in at the GE and Labour will be voted out in 2029. Labour have the wrong leader. Although who is the right one, who knows?
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That's pretty much the pitch right now, and it seems to be working extremely well. TINA.

I don't know if it will work longer-term (2029), I guess it depends on the next Tory leader, state of the economy, and if the press goes after the kind of corruption that brought Tory polling down.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
How in the world do people think he's a better leader than Corbyn? I know Labour will likely win any GE but that's going to be a freebie given the absolute sh*t the Tories have the put the country into and nothing to do with Stamer himself. You can put a donkey in his place and Labour would still win.
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Corbyn ran against someone that created an entirely fake persona, who literally created a buffoon self-caricature, and that version of labour gave the conservatives:

  1. 80 seat majority
  2. Decimated traditional labour seats
  3. an 8% swing against the party
The corbyn leadership also lost across all social classes. He was pretty much confined to good support from university educated young people.

https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/26925-how-britain-voted-2019-general-election

Elections have consequences. Majorities have consequences. Maybe those responsible for running the labour party into the ditch of irrelevancy for 5 years should've thought about what would happen when the bubble they created burst and when it came time to planning how to fix that mess how they would stop the labour right taking control?

But hey, it's all moot now. The labour left has their ideological war ready for the Starmer government and thats all that matters.
 
hasanejaz88 said:


How in the world do people think he's a better leader than Corbyn? I know Labour will likely win any GE but that's going to be a freebie given the absolute sh*t the Tories have the put the country into and nothing to do with Stamer himself. You can put a donkey in his place and Labour would still win.
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Any other leader would be 40 points ahead, right?
 
hasanejaz88 said:


How in the world do people think he's a better leader than Corbyn? I know Labour will likely win any GE but that's going to be a freebie given the absolute sh*t the Tories have the put the country into and nothing to do with Stamer himself. You can put a donkey in his place and Labour would still win.
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Because he is too decent as a human being to be a successful politician to be elected as PM. To be a successful politician to become PM you need to be a piece of shit of a liar with lack of human decency. All UK PM's fits this criteria, specially the last labour PM.
 
Giggsyking said:
Because he is too decent as a human being to be a successful politician to be elected as PM. To be a successful politician to become PM you need to be a piece of shit of a liar with lack of human decency. All UK PM's fits this criteria, specially the last labour PM.
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So do tell..how does the "decent human" get into power? Sounds like electoral politics cannot handle someone that is "decent", so how do you get them into power?
 
WPMUFC said:
So do tell..how does the "decent human" get into power? Sounds like electoral politics cannot handle someone that is "decent", so how do you get them into power?
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You can get somewhat decent blokes in real democracies with the highest democratic indexes like Sweden, Norway. But flawed democracies like the Uk is not easy and in the US impossible.
 
Giggsyking said:
You can get somewhat decent blokes in real democracies with the highest democratic indexes like Sweden, Norway. But flawed democracies like the Uk is not easy and in the US impossible.
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If that is the case, and we'll keep it to UK election and politics, how does the UK left get elected? If a "decent human" can't win a westminster majority, does that mean power is ceded to the extreme reactionary right until revolution? Or does compromise take place within left, centre-left and centre-right circles to ensure they can win majority away from those other forces? With the balance internally hopefully favoured to the centre-left and left.

Look i might be "devil advocate" things too much here, but can you not see how dealing yourself out of the decision-making circle gives these people free-rein to "pull an Elphicke"? Everything Starmer is doing has no negative impact on the polls, so with the centre-right in full flight and the left vacating the arena, i don't know how the "the decent human" or "goals of the left" ever get achieved without compromise or revolution. And i tend to favour non-violence over violence.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
I know its the hope that kills you but he has run a large govt department before and has more experience at building teams and policy than people will credit him with.
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To me Starmer is just beginning to 'lengthen his stride', ready for the GE starting whistle to blow.

The welcoming of Natalie Elphicke, despite objections from within his ranks, and visiting her in Dover, he is in effect parking his tanks on Sunak's lawn..... "At the GE you want to make Rwanda the answer to small boats, come on then let's do that".

Or perhaps doing a Mike Summerbee, and getting his retaliation in first :lol:
 
But if there is no alternative and the public continue to want the same thing, time after time, the UK is stuck in this spiral caused by FPTP voting system. To get out of this if you don't change the voting system you need a charismatic strong leader who can convince the public that a change of approach for the better is needed. Not more of the same but done differently. Starmer will be swallowed up and spat out within three years. A new leader might offer something different.
 
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It's infuriating to me that the Rwanda bollocks has become such a huge policy when the NHS is at it's knees. This GE should all be about the plan to recover the NHS from the brink rather small boats entering Dover. It's actually tragic how out of touch these fecking Politicians are.
 
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