Westminster Politics 2024-2029

Let's not compare housing with electronics, shall we?

And if there's a compalint about previous generations about housing, it's not the perception of how easy we think they had it, it's the extend to which the political choices of previous generations helped create said housing problem that we have today.
 
Let's not compare housing with electronics, shall we?

And if there's a compalint about previous generations about housing, it's not the perception of how easy we think they had it, it's the extend to which the political choices of previous generations helped create said housing problem that we have today.
Well said. The previous generations have pulled up the ladder in so many aspects of life.
 
Very well said.
We were trying to buy our first house in the early 1970's when house prices shot up by almost 50% in a couple of years.
And the most difficult thing then was that the only place you could get a mortgage was from an old fashioned building society.
You had to have been saving with one for over a year before they would even consider a loan. And every month we had to make an appointment with them and apply for a loan. And once they had reached their individual branch limit, you had to reapply the next month and so it went on. Fortunately we were both saving with different building societies and eventually were given a loan. But only on a new build house.

As you rightly say, inflation was shooting up every month, as were house prices.

I fully accept that things are extremely difficult now. Don't doubt that for a minute.
But I have to say that it was also very very difficult then as well.
You are a bit older than I am, I have never owned my own home, I could never afford it, Margaret Thatcher has a lot to answer for and so does Gordon Brown, the former for the right-to-buy and the latter the pensions tax raid that basically led to people buyig property as an investment rarher than somewhere to live
 
They're both incredibly out of touch.
I know, it's the same shit that's always spewed.

"You don't know how hard we had it, if you just cut out your nettoast and avocadoflix and worked hard, like we did, you could easily buy a house."
 
I am a child or the 60's, I'm well aware that housing costs in particular are way higher now, but the culture and expectations today are completely different, if we didn't have the money for something we had to do without, these days everyone seems to have every kind of electronics going

The inflation rate in 1975 was 20% and the mortgage rate would make you cry today, especially the 1979 one, so don't think everything was rosy back in the day, it wasn't

OK, that’s a fair argument, objectively inflation was higher and the mortgage rates were too, but the value of the house your parents will have bought as a percentage of their household income would have been about 1/3 of what it is now, so the mortgage as a % of household income would again have been much lower than it is now.

And @Buster15 also valid points and a fairly made argument too, but likewise the % rise isn’t comparable, as the average house price has more than doubled in the last 15-20yrs.

Again, in good faith, would you be willing to confirm what the price was of the house you bought, and your household income at the time to compare?
 
We've already been through the how hard it was for boomers versus the current generation in one of the housing threads. Let's not derail this one with it again.
 
I am a child or the 60's, I'm well aware that housing costs in particular are way higher now, but the culture and expectations today are completely different, if we didn't have the money for something we had to do without, these days everyone seems to have every kind of electronics going

The inflation rate in 1975 was 20% and the mortgage rate would make you cry today, especially the 1979 one, so don't think everything was rosy back in the day, it wasn't
They even have widescreen TVs and Sky subscriptions!:mad:
 
It has to be said that for the most part wages outpaced inflation throughout the post war 20th century - up until about 2010.
 
I am a child or the 60's, I'm well aware that housing costs in particular are way higher now, but the culture and expectations today are completely different, if we didn't have the money for something we had to do without, these days everyone seems to have every kind of electronics going

The inflation rate in 1975 was 20% and the mortgage rate would make you cry today, especially the 1979 one, so don't think everything was rosy back in the day, it wasn't

Historical interest rates are absolutely meaningless, because there are so many variables in play.

The value of a house 40 years ago as a ratio to the average salary was far narrower for starters.

Wages have stagnated vs inflation and been left in the mud vs house prices.

Ipso facto, it is harder than it has ever been since feudalism to buy a house and no amount of historical comparison can change that fact.
 
We've already been through the how hard it was for boomers versus the current generation in one of the housing threads. Let's not derail this one with it again.
Why? It's becoming more relevant as time goes by.
 
OK, that’s a fair argument, objectively inflation was higher and the mortgage rates were too, but the value of the house your parents will have bought as a percentage of their household income would have been about 1/3 of what it is now, so the mortgage as a % of household income would again have been much lower than it is now.

And @Buster15 also valid points and a fairly made argument too, but likewise the % rise isn’t comparable, as the average house price has more than doubled in the last 15-20yrs.

Again, in good faith, would you be willing to confirm what the price was of the house you bought, and your household income at the time to compare?

I will be as honest as I can.
Bearing in mind it was about 50 years ago, I do remember what we paid for the house - £8250.
But as to my wages, I really can't remember. I had to work nights and as much overtime as possible. Google suggests the average manual worker wage for a man was about £32 - £36/week. So about £1800/year. I might have earned a bit more due to Nightshift and overtime but obviously there was tax, NI and pension contributions to deduct.

All I can assure you was that it was extremely tough because of the constant increases in inflation with resulting increase in interest rates.
Hope that helps.

Edit. Meant to say this was in 1972.
 
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The issue with the high interest rates argument, it completely ignores the overall price, as well as much more importantly the ratio to average earnings.

You can cut back on your £100 TV purchase or £200 fridge purchase I guess but not sure it's gonna make a dent in the tens of thousands you're behind when it comes to home prices now.
 
Because it's for another thread and there are multiple that can be used for it.
The housing crisis is probably the most important political issue in the western world at the moment, it would be ridiculous not to discuss it in here.
 
The housing crisis is probably the most important political issue in the western world at the moment, it would be ridiculous not to discuss it in here.
Climate change, war and global debt levels give it a run for their money, but yes it's a massive issue.

Getting into a multi-page bickerfest on interest rates boomers paid or salary multiples now is derailing and has been done to death though. Issues around it like policy, planning rules etc would be far more constructive and forward-looking. Potential actual solutions.
 
I will be as honest as I can.
Bearing in mind it was about 50 years ago, I do remember what we paid for the house - £8250.
But as to my wages, I really can't remember. I had to work nights and as much overtime as possible. Google suggests the average manual worker wage for a man was about £32 - £36/week. So about £1800/year. I might have earned a bit more due to Nightshift and overtime but obviously there was tax, NI and pension contributions to deduct.

All I can assure you was that it was extremely tough because of the constant increases in inflation with resulting increase in interest rates.
Hope that helps.

Edit. Meant to say this was in 1972.

So it was about 4.5x your sole annual salary, can I ask, did you buy the house alone or with a partner?

Let’s hypothetically (until we know what your situation was) suggest you had a partner that the time, on say £1200 a year, so your household income would be £4000pa making the house just over double your household income.

When my wife and I bought our house together, our household income was about £45,000 and the house (below the average house price) and with a 5% mortgage we got a house that was 5.5x our combined income.

So yes, inflation was higher, and mortgage rates were higher, but the actually number involved re: the monthly payment was nowhere near what it currently is, and that’s before we take into account Covid, Russia, Truss and the economic hits they caused, making things even worse for people.

Poverty used to be an outlier (objectively speaking), limited to those unable to either work at all or for a full time job. The last 20yrs have seen the reach of poverty expand I’d say ten-fold, to the point where now a couple, both with degree level jobs, are barely able to maintain a house in certain areas.
 


The issue with the high interest rates argument, it completely ignores the overall price, as well as much more importantly the ratio to average earnings.

You can cut back on your £100 TV purchase or £200 fridge purchase I guess but not sure it's gonna make a dent in the tens of thousands you're behind when it comes to home prices now.


They won’t care about the math sadly.
 
So it was about 4.5x your sole annual salary, can I ask, did you buy the house alone or with a partner?

Let’s hypothetically (until we know what your situation was) suggest you had a partner that the time, on say £1200 a year, so your household income would be £4000pa making the house just over double your household income.

When my wife and I bought our house together, our household income was about £45,000 and the house (below the average house price) and with a 5% mortgage we got a house that was 5.5x our combined income.

So yes, inflation was higher, and mortgage rates were higher, but the actually number involved re: the monthly payment was nowhere near what it currently is, and that’s before we take into account Covid, Russia, Truss and the economic hits they caused, making things even worse for people.

Poverty used to be an outlier (objectively speaking), limited to those unable to either work at all or for a full time job. The last 20yrs have seen the reach of poverty expand I’d say ten-fold, to the point where now a couple, both with degree level jobs, are barely able to maintain a house in certain areas.
You make good points but unfortunately it's the older generations that needs convincing because they still control the country in terms of their vote share. Perhaps I should be less confrontational so that my point is better received but it's just very annoying when older people bang on about hard work and sacrifice when the landscape has changed entirely from when they were purchasing.
 
Not saying they do, but if any parent has children going hungry and they have one of these then there's definitely something wrong
I agree with this, I never had a sky subscription growing up for this very reason. I don't disagree with the idea of prioritisation but to suggest that we get rid of child benefit altogether is just horrible.
 


The issue with the high interest rates argument, it completely ignores the overall price, as well as much more importantly the ratio to average earnings.

You can cut back on your £100 TV purchase or £200 fridge purchase I guess but not sure it's gonna make a dent in the tens of thousands you're behind when it comes to home prices now.


I seem to recall @Paul the Wolf had a view on this.
 
They obviously wouldn’t.
Exactly. It's an argument in someone's head that people shouldn't receive benefits because they imagine they probably have some expensive subscription services and wear clothes from expensive brands. In reality they've got a hacked firestick and some cheap knockoffs.
 
So it was about 4.5x your sole annual salary, can I ask, did you buy the house alone or with a partner?

Let’s hypothetically (until we know what your situation was) suggest you had a partner that the time, on say £1200 a year, so your household income would be £4000pa making the house just over double your household income.

When my wife and I bought our house together, our household income was about £45,000 and the house (below the average house price) and with a 5% mortgage we got a house that was 5.5x our combined income.

So yes, inflation was higher, and mortgage rates were higher, but the actually number involved re: the monthly payment was nowhere near what it currently is, and that’s before we take into account Covid, Russia, Truss and the economic hits they caused, making things even worse for people.

Poverty used to be an outlier (objectively speaking), limited to those unable to either work at all or for a full time job. The last 20yrs have seen the reach of poverty expand I’d say ten-fold, to the point where now a couple, both with degree level jobs, are barely able to maintain a house in certain areas.

Yes my wife also worked as you say and so your calculations are probably quite accurate.

And please don't think that I am in any way doubting the extremely challenging financial situation now, especially after the Truss disaster. But to a degree, twas ever thus my friend.
And I will just add the fact that at the time, we had the massive increases in oil prices which meant that inflation and mortgage rates were increasing almost every month. And not just by 1/10th of a percent. This is a matter of record.
Even with both working, just getting by month to month meant we were forced to borrow from parents just to pay the mortgage as well as putting off having children for a few years.
We had a bed, black and white TV, second hand chairs, cooker and fridge (both wedding presents) and an old Ford Cortina. That was it.

All I would say is that if anyone thinks we had it easy back then, that was very far from the truth.

I very much appreciate your interest and informative posts.

Edit.
Just one thing to add for context.
During the 1970's, there was a period of awful industrial relations.... strikes were pretty much endemic. I well remember we were on strike for 12 weeks, obviously no wages coming in for me anyway.
That kind of thing is largely in the past. But it was yet another challenge we had to deal with.
 
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Don't drag me into this again.

I thought of saying that as well. But I was asked some very reasonable questions by a poster who I regard as genuine and I have tried to give my best attempts at an answer.

You and I lived through that period. Whereas the vast majority on here did not. And so, as long as people are asking about it, I am always happy to give an answer.
 
Yes my wife also worked as you say and so your calculations are probably quite accurate.

And please don't think that I am in any way doubting the extremely challenging financial situation now, especially after the Truss disaster. But to a degree, twas ever thus my friend.
And I will just add the fact that at the time, we had the massive increases in oil prices which meant that inflation and mortgage rates were increasing almost every month. And not just by 1/10th of a percent. This is a matter of record.
Even with both working, just getting by month to month meant we were forced to borrow from parents just to pay the mortgage as well as putting off having children for a few years.
We had a bed, black and white TV, second hand chairs, cooker and fridge (both wedding presents) and an old Ford Cortina. That was it.

All I would say is that if anyone thinks we had it easy back then, that was very far from the truth.

I very much appreciate your interest and informative posts.

Edit.
Just one thing to add for context.
During the 1970's, there was a period of awful industrial relations.... strikes were pretty much endemic. I well remember we were on strike for 12 weeks, obviously no wages coming in for me anyway.
That kind of thing is largely in the past. But it was yet another challenge we had to deal with.

It’s no problem, and thanks for taking them in good faith.

And to be clear I’m in no way suggesting anyone has had it easy, but too many in your generation see the technology available now (like widescreen TVs etc) and make ignorant assumptions about the difficulties that the current generation face.
 
You make good points but unfortunately it's the older generations that needs convincing because they still control the country in terms of their vote share. Perhaps I should be less confrontational so that my point is better received but it's just very annoying when older people bang on about hard work and sacrifice when the landscape has changed entirely from when they were purchasing.
So what exactly should the older generations do about these matters?
This is a serious question. I am in my late 70's and would like to know specifically what I can do (that I am not already doing) to help my children and grandchildren and others in their position.

This new government has a massive job to do, which I suspect will take between 10-15 years to get things moving in the right direction and it isn't just the last 14 years of Tory mismanagement (and in part greed), that has landed us here. In my lifetime one of the earliest events I recall was the Oil crisis in the early 1970's, it set off all sorts of issues especially in the western world that change life-styles, e.g. the raising of the school leaving age in the mid 70's would seem at first glance a side issue, but it wasn't, it change expectations for numerous generations to come, about the whole idea of 'leaving school' ....and what came after.

Other Caf contributors have already referred to housing issues, elsewhere and this is one of the greatest and most important issues that has changed enormously the lives of millions. It was (in living memory, well mine anyway) started post war with the building of what became known as 'prefab's', these were mostly single story accommodation but with the same living space as many '2 up 2' down terraced houses. This was a quick fix and supposedly to end the scandal for people who had been going off to war from overcrowded and 'ghetto' type mill towns, mining villages, dockside conurbations, etc. by building homes for those hero's, who had survived and were now returning in triumph. It may have allowed some 'traction' on housing matters but it did not stay the distance.

You could argue that overall, we have been 'doing housing' all wrong since the industrial revolution began, and we have not got much better at it. What you can afford or want to pay for a home is immaterial, if it isn't where you want it, able to last a lifetime and retain its value and these days takes into account climate change.
On an island where space was always going to be an issue, in terms of building (anything), housing dropped down the ladder. That is until it was first given a boost, but then a drawback when large swathes of the social housing stock (or the better social housing stock) got sold off... one way or another, but the people most needing it, practically doubled over the latter part of the 20th Century.

It's likely that the new government will get pushed into creating another 'building boom' to provide fit for purpose (including climate considerations) but this has to be much wider than the actual construction of houses, it has to involve the building of homes. The appeal of prefabricated construction elements is obvious, speed being of the essence, but these have to be items that last and retain their value, in particular since the idea of an 'Englishman's home (not becoming) his Castle, it seems is not fading away.
 
So what exactly should the older generations do about these matters?
This is a serious question. I am in my late 70's and would like to know specifically what I can do (that I am not already doing) to help my children and grandchildren and others in their position.

This new government has a massive job to do, which I suspect will take between 10-15 years to get things moving in the right direction and it isn't just the last 14 years of Tory mismanagement (and in part greed), that has landed us here. In my lifetime one of the earliest events I recall was the Oil crisis in the early 1970's, it set off all sorts of issues especially in the western world that change life-styles, e.g. the raising of the school leaving age in the mid 70's would seem at first glance a side issue, but it wasn't, it change expectations for numerous generations to come, about the whole idea of 'leaving school' ....and what came after.

Other Caf contributors have already referred to housing issues, elsewhere and this is one of the greatest and most important issues that has changed enormously the lives of millions. It was (in living memory, well mine anyway) started post war with the building of what became known as 'prefab's', these were mostly single story accommodation but with the same living space as many '2 up 2' down terraced houses. This was a quick fix and supposedly to end the scandal for people who had been going off to war from overcrowded and 'ghetto' type mill towns, mining villages, dockside conurbations, etc. by building homes for those hero's, who had survived and were now returning in triumph. It may have allowed some 'traction' on housing matters but it did not stay the distance.

You could argue that overall, we have been 'doing housing' all wrong since the industrial revolution began, and we have not got much better at it. What you can afford or want to pay for a home is immaterial, if it isn't where you want it, able to last a lifetime and retain its value and these days takes into account climate change.
On an island where space was always going to be an issue, in terms of building (anything), housing dropped down the ladder. That is until it was first given a boost, but then a drawback when large swathes of the social housing stock (or the better social housing stock) got sold off... one way or another, but the people most needing it, practically doubled over the latter part of the 20th Century.

It's likely that the new government will get pushed into creating another 'building boom' to provide fit for purpose (including climate considerations) but this has to be much wider than the actual construction of houses, it has to involve the building of homes. The appeal of prefabricated construction elements is obvious, speed being of the essence, but these have to be items that last and retain their value, in particular since the idea of an 'Englishman's home (not becoming) his Castle, it seems is not fading away.
Stop voting for parties and politicians that have no interest in housing people.
 
Stop voting for parties and politicians that have no interest in housing people.
Having seen @Maticmaker's posts over time, I might be wrong, but I get the impression he's never voted for a Tory in his life, same with me.
 
So what exactly should the older generations do about these matters?
This is a serious question. I am in my late 70's and would like to know specifically what I can do (that I am not already doing) to help my children and grandchildren and others in their position.

This new government has a massive job to do, which I suspect will take between 10-15 years to get things moving in the right direction and it isn't just the last 14 years of Tory mismanagement (and in part greed), that has landed us here. In my lifetime one of the earliest events I recall was the Oil crisis in the early 1970's, it set off all sorts of issues especially in the western world that change life-styles, e.g. the raising of the school leaving age in the mid 70's would seem at first glance a side issue, but it wasn't, it change expectations for numerous generations to come, about the whole idea of 'leaving school' ....and what came after.

Other Caf contributors have already referred to housing issues, elsewhere and this is one of the greatest and most important issues that has changed enormously the lives of millions. It was (in living memory, well mine anyway) started post war with the building of what became known as 'prefab's', these were mostly single story accommodation but with the same living space as many '2 up 2' down terraced houses. This was a quick fix and supposedly to end the scandal for people who had been going off to war from overcrowded and 'ghetto' type mill towns, mining villages, dockside conurbations, etc. by building homes for those hero's, who had survived and were now returning in triumph. It may have allowed some 'traction' on housing matters but it did not stay the distance.

You could argue that overall, we have been 'doing housing' all wrong since the industrial revolution began, and we have not got much better at it. What you can afford or want to pay for a home is immaterial, if it isn't where you want it, able to last a lifetime and retain its value and these days takes into account climate change.
On an island where space was always going to be an issue, in terms of building (anything), housing dropped down the ladder. That is until it was first given a boost, but then a drawback when large swathes of the social housing stock (or the better social housing stock) got sold off... one way or another, but the people most needing it, practically doubled over the latter part of the 20th Century.

It's likely that the new government will get pushed into creating another 'building boom' to provide fit for purpose (including climate considerations) but this has to be much wider than the actual construction of houses, it has to involve the building of homes. The appeal of prefabricated construction elements is obvious, speed being of the essence, but these have to be items that last and retain their value, in particular since the idea of an 'Englishman's home (not becoming) his Castle, it seems is not fading away
Whilst I do recall the oil crisis, the one that sticks in my memory was the 3 day week, I was still at school, no school 2 days a week was just fine by me :D - but no electric meant no TV, freezing cold baths and a shortage of candles and such like meant early nights, it was as boring as hell after daylight hours!