Westminster Politics 2024-2029

Jippy said:
Varoufakis was an awful politician
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I really can't think of a better politician in recent times in Greece. What do you base your opinion of him as a politician on?


Jippy said:
and despised by every Greek I know.
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We have plenty of tory type right wing idiots in Greece. Have you tried getting an opinion from someone who is not an idiot and has an educated opinion?
 
AfonsoAlves said:
It's the same thing. China are not a reliable partner, never will be a reliable partner barring miraculous systemic regime change, and its state education system still bangs on about grievances against UK from 170 to 140 years ago that need to be "avenged". Imagine British school textbooks on Germany still needing to "pay" for what it did in the World Wars, or the Americans still being bitter about 1812. It's just hyper-nationalism, boogeymanism and ultimately results in a completely unreliable international partner. (Which has been proven time and time again.)

Trying to woo them is like trying to woo a lion to be a reliable domestic pet.
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I think in terms of the utter depravity of the motivations, the Opium Wars might be up there with the the Congo Free State as the two worst parts of the colonial era?
Good for them that they've not forgotten. A lot of the third world doesn't understand the threat hasn't gone away, and China itself should internalise the implications of that when dealing with their neighbours.
 
berbatrick said:
I think in terms of the utter depravity of the motivations, the Opium Wars might be up there with the the Congo Free State as the two worst parts of the colonial era?
Good for them that they've not forgotten. A lot of the third world doesn't understand the threat hasn't gone away, and China itself should internalise the implications of that when dealing with their neighbours.
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This is kind of a misrepresentation of the opium wars and propagated for a number of reasons. But the opium wars were no different than most imperial market access conflicts:

1) the canton commissioner sending a letter to victoria which asks why opium is banned in Britain but allowed to be exported to china. The reason it was never signified with a response is because, well, it wasn’t banned in Britain. British consumption of opiates per capita in 1840 was 2.5 to 4x that of china! To the British it was just a normal trade good. Gladstone himself was addicted.

2) in 1839 lin zexin was given a mandate by the Qing emperor increase domestic opium production and extract taxes and duties from it in yunnan in a bid to extradite themselves foreign imports. This was mainly due to the fact that china was bleeding silver currency from foreign imports. Addiction and societal damage from opium was first mentioned in 1790 by the Qing dynasty but by the time the opium wars kicked in the Chinese motivation was economical and was about stemming the outflow of silver. From 1839 to 42, Chinese domestic opium production increased orders of magnitude.

3) the British were specifically targeted. EIC were basically stopped from trading opium but turkey, second largest supplier were not. Mainly because turkey didn’t have an obligation to accept only silver currency.

All in all, the war was not that different from all the other colonial wars for market access and trade and certainly not comparable to Congo. All this stuff about opium addiction and societal damage was post republican china revisionism.

That isn’t what I’m even referring to. Things like depictions in state text about the “barbaric” British burning down the Summer palace and machine gunning civilians (which didn’t even happen) are engrained in every Chinese child’s mind… without mentioning the little detail that it was a direct retaliation to the Qing emperor torturing and executing a British diplomatic mission. Amongst them was a journalist for the Times there to report on negotiations between Britain France and china.

It’s this complete lack of nuance in the education system that creates a system of hatred and mistrust based off propaganda.
 
Eplel said:
I really can't think of a better politician in recent times in Greece. What do you base your opinion of him as a politician on?




We have plenty of tory type right wing idiots in Greece. Have you tried getting an opinion from someone who is not an idiot and has an educated opinion?
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I suppose it's easier to dismiss anyone who disagrees with you about politics as a 'tory type right wing idiot' rather than wonder why.
 
Raven said:
Not really what is being spoken about but what do you think made him an awful politician?
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I actually think he was right about a lot of things, particularly that needed a new route and not just more punitive bailout packages and his understandable desire to put Greece's interests above those of banks' balance sheets. But he was an academic with little political experience and his abrasive, often highly insulting, manner was deleterious to his agenda, as was his brinksmanship around the threat of Grexit. He didn't seem to understand the need for diplomacy and some tact in negotiations, alienating people. Ultimately Greece ended up accepting worse terms than what he was offered and turned down.
That's my understanding from Greek friends, random Greeks I spoke to there and economists I interviewed at the time.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
This is kind of a misrepresentation of the opium wars and propagated for a number of reasons. But the opium wars were no different than most imperial market access conflicts:

1) the canton commissioner sending a letter to victoria which asks why opium is banned in Britain but allowed to be exported to china. The reason it was never signified with a response is because, well, it wasn’t banned in Britain. British consumption of opiates per capita in 1840 was 2.5 to 4x that of china! To the British it was just a normal trade good. Gladstone himself was addicted.

2) in 1839 lin zexin was given a mandate by the Qing emperor increase domestic opium production and extract taxes and duties from it in yunnan in a bid to extradite themselves foreign imports. This was mainly due to the fact that china was bleeding silver currency from foreign imports. Addiction and societal damage from opium was first mentioned in 1790 by the Qing dynasty but by the time the opium wars kicked in the Chinese motivation was economical and was about stemming the outflow of silver. From 1839 to 42, Chinese domestic opium production increased orders of magnitude.

3) the British were specifically targeted. EIC were basically stopped from trading opium but turkey, second largest supplier were not. Mainly because turkey didn’t have an obligation to accept only silver currency.

All in all, the war was not that different from all the other colonial wars for market access and trade and certainly not comparable to Congo. All this stuff about opium addiction and societal damage was post republican china revisionism.

That isn’t what I’m even referring to. Things like depictions in state text about the “barbaric” British burning down the Summer palace and machine gunning civilians (which didn’t even happen) are engrained in every Chinese child’s mind… without mentioning the little detail that it was a direct retaliation to the Qing emperor torturing and executing a British diplomatic mission. Amongst them was a journalist for the Times there to report on negotiations between Britain France and china.

It’s this complete lack of nuance in the education system that creates a system of hatred and mistrust based off propaganda.
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Can you point me towards some sources for 1 to 3? I haven't come across these perspectives before.
 
Jippy said:
I suppose it's easier to dismiss anyone who disagrees with you about politics as a 'tory type right wing idiot' rather than wonder why.
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I don't wonder why. I know, first hand. I lived in Greece for 27 years, so I don't take second-hand half-assed opinions from randoms on the internet that seriously out of hand, that's why I gave you the chance to explain yourself.

Me, I can explain to you why I think Greece has many "tory type right wing idiots", if you're interested to learn.
 
Jippy said:
I actually think he was right about a lot of things, particularly that needed a new route and not just more punitive bailout packages and his understandable desire to put Greece's interests above those of banks' balance sheets. But he was an academic with little political experience and his abrasive, often highly insulting, manner was deleterious to his agenda, as was his brinksmanship around the threat of Grexit. He didn't seem to understand the need for diplomacy and some tact in negotiations, alienating people. Ultimately Greece ended up accepting worse terms than what he was offered and turned down.
That's my understanding from Greek friends, random Greeks I spoke to there and economists I interviewed at the time.
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He enacted the will of Greek people. Greek people didn't want a deal with the EU, because the EU and the corrupt Greek politicians did something unprecedented in modern greek politics: they installed an unelected "caretaker" government (witht he prime minister being an ex european central bank VP) in order to accept all and any terms that the EU would impose on Greece.

Now, study some of Greece's modern politics (post 1989), and ask your friends as well: Who are the idiots of this story, the corrupt Greek politicians that sold away their country's future, the Greek people that supported them again and again because they were getting crumbs in exchange for votes (and still do), or one of the few people that didn't want to play ball with them?
 
Frosty said:
Can you point me towards some sources for 1 to 3? I haven't come across these perspectives before.
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Growing and selling opium was entirely legal. In 1840, and for decades afterwards, growing, selling and using opium was entirely legal in places like Turkey, Persiaand (British) India. In India it was not only legal but in the 1830s and 1840s opium fromthe British East India Company’s Bengal opium monopoly was quite normally auctioned in Calcutta and shipped to many places, for instance to the Dutch in the East Indies. Opium was legal in Britain itself, which imported some 200,000 pounds of it fromIndia in that same year. It continued in normal use, especially in the form of laudanum,and was used by many distinguished British and European people, including PrimeMinister Gladstone in Britain and Prince Bismarck in Germany, was openly sold to thefamilies of wounded soldiers during World War I and traces of laudanum could befound in British over-the-counter cold medicines as late as the 1950s. Indeed, neither inBritain nor in America, were there laws against opium or any other drug until manydecades after the 1840-1842 war.The British position at Canton and in London was therefore complicated. Therewas no reason to interfere with opium growing or trading in India, or to stop exportsfrom there. Or to stop selling it in India to private merchants who might ship it, inprivate vessels, wherever they pleased, including to British ships anchored beyondChina’s reach outside the Pearl River estuary, downstream from Canton, where theWestern traders were congregated.
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The most important official concerns were two. One was the damage done to thehealth and capacity for work of the people using opium, especially the addicts. Theother was the economic damage done by the opium trade. Most importantly, too muchsilver was being paid to foreign merchants for opium, and thus leaving China. The domestic price of silver was therefore going up. But the price of everyday copper cash remained the same. So tax payments, which had to be made in silver, were effectively taxincreases, causing much popular resentment and social unrest.
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https://ces.fas.harvard.edu/uploads/files/Working-Papers-Archives/CES_WP136.pdf

This guy is a very respected historian on China:

I agree that his narrative is somewhat...tinted. (O, the poor defense civilians on ships!), but the underlying facts are very well presented if you read his books on the war.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
It's the same thing. China are not a reliable partner, never will be a reliable partner barring miraculous systemic regime change, and its state education system still bangs on about grievances against UK from 170 to 140 years ago that need to be "avenged". Imagine British school textbooks on Germany still needing to "pay" for what it did in the World Wars, or the Americans still being bitter about 1812. It's just hyper-nationalism, boogeymanism and ultimately results in a completely unreliable international partner. (Which has been proven time and time again.)

Trying to woo them is like trying to woo a lion to be a reliable domestic pet.
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How dare they teach history in state education, honestly what an absolutely hysterical and bigoted take :lol:

Having spent some time at a couple of Chinese universities and discussing this first hand, no one gives a shit. They're not drones drilled to hate the west by the communist party. It's just an historical event that is obviously taught the same as UK kids learn lots of other quite irrelevant moments or the greek government push a certain angle in regard to the elgin marbles in their schools.

Also even visiting the new and old palaces, there's a couple of plaques.
 
Eplel said:
I don't wonder why. I know, first hand. I lived in Greece for 27 years, so I don't take second-hand half-assed opinions from randoms on the internet that seriously out of hand, that's why I gave you the chance to explain yourself.

Me, I can explain to you why I think Greece has many "tory type right wing idiots", if you're interested to learn.
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Ditto.
Eplel said:
He enacted the will of Greek people. Greek people didn't want a deal with the EU, because the EU and the corrupt Greek politicians did something unprecedented in modern greek politics: they installed an unelected "caretaker" government (witht he prime minister being an ex european central bank VP) in order to accept all and any terms that the EU would impose on Greece.

Now, study some of Greece's modern politics (post 1989), and ask your friends as well: Who are the idiots of this story, the corrupt Greek politicians that sold away their country's future, the Greek people that supported them again and again because they were getting crumbs in exchange for votes (and still do), or one of the few people that didn't want to play ball with them?
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He was ultimately unsuccessful and part of that was down to his lack of skill as a politician. Clearly you have your interpretation and thoughts on it, just as people I know who also lived through it in Greece have theirs.
 
Smores said:
How dare they teach history in state education, honestly what an absolutely hysterical and bigoted take :lol:

Having spent some time at a couple of Chinese universities and discussing this first hand, no one gives a shit. They're not drones drilled to hate the west by the communist party. It's just an historical event that is obviously taught the same as UK kids learn lots of other quite irrelevant moments or the greek government push a certain angle in regard to the elgin marbles in their schools.

Also even visiting the new and old palaces, there's a couple of plaques.
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Barely anyone in China is going to give a westerner their true thoughts on the topic.

The problem isn't the teaching of history. It's the warping of it.

Imagine you read school textbooks and it says, "The vile, disgusting barbarian Germans massacred the innocent defenders of Ypres day after day after day, committing atrocity after atrocity that goes unpunished to this day."
 
Smores said:
How dare they teach history in state education, honestly what an absolutely hysterical and bigoted take :lol:

Having spent some time at a couple of Chinese universities and discussing this first hand, no one gives a shit. They're not drones drilled to hate the west by the communist party. It's just an historical event that is obviously taught the same as UK kids learn lots of other quite irrelevant moments or the greek government push a certain angle in regard to the elgin marbles in their schools.

Also even visiting the new and old palaces, there's a couple of plaques.
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48420783_10161279549730137_8887141527109763072_n.png


Here's an extract from a Chinese history textbook. The language used in insane and pure fearmongering.
 
TheLiverBird said:
It’ll not be a protest

The farmers protests we saw in Europe, were protests, us brits have long forgotten how too have an impactful protest.

It’ll be embarrassing
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You've got half the tory shadow front bench there as well as (other) far right provacateurs - looking for content and headlines...would be hilarious if they kick off and the met have to move in, all that law and order / anti protest legislation they introduced being used to kettle then batter them.
 
nickm said:
I don't speak Chinese but my trusty assistant "ChatGPT" translates it as a load of stuff about clans?
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Top left is a description about how the 8 european powers burnt the summer palace with...lots of embelishment and re-writing of history.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
Barely anyone in China is going to give a westerner their true thoughts on the topic.

The problem isn't the teaching of history. It's the warping of it.

Imagine you read school textbooks and it says, "The vile, disgusting barbarian Germans massacred the innocent defenders of Ypres day after day after day, committing atrocity after atrocity that goes unpunished to this day."
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In a professional setting they won't but in social situations it's different, it's not North Korea. In my experience they're very open and had plenty of critical conversations especially on drunken nights out.

It's hardly warped just one sided like most history but there's much we did wrong there and nothing at all wrong with the recounting of it. You mention above that it was an act of revenge (does that even make it okay?) but although it's been a while I recall it had already been looted and damaged once before those events.

I'm not going to question the text books as I don't know either way but literal translations are a folly. We certainly would account the Nazis as evil in text books and you'll find many tellings of barbarians.
 
TheGame said:
Is this a thread about inheritance tax? I posted a message saying the Tories are hypocritical and should be called out as such.
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No the framers are protesting about inheritance tax, yet you seem to be on about about loss of EU funding and trade deals. Probably talking about australian/nz meat where the Torries did the deal on weight including the bone and cartilage.

Your not even typing it yourself, you're just postings tweets to frame a new narrative.
 
M16Red said:
No the framers are protesting about inheritance tax, yet you seem to be on about about loss of EU funding and trade deals. Probably talking about australian/nz meat where the Torries did the deal on weight including the bone and cartilage.

Your not even typing it yourself, you're just postings tweets to frame a new narrative.
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WTF are you even on about? The message is that the Tories are hypocrites because they have shafted the farmers whilst in office. Starting with Brexit and then carrying out. The hypocrites now put on Barbour jackets and pretend to support the farmers for political again. I posted the message from Tim Farron because in my opinion its true. Clearly stuck a chord with you it seems, wonder why that is.
 
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