Were we happy to sell Beckham and van Nistelrooy to Madrid?

Fergie kicked the boot at Becks in February of that season. Not surprised Becks was looking for a way out.

The moment that boot connected with his eye, his United career was over. There was no coming back from that.
 
I was shocked and annoyed when Ruud left. Mostly because, although I thought Saha was good, I didn't think he was that good. Also, Rooney was good but still young and Ronaldo had yet to prove he was going to be anywhere near as good as he went on to be. I was worried about where the goals would come from and I thought we'd been ripped off with the fee. Just over £10 million for one of the most consistent goal scorers of the past decade? Ridiculous! I'm not going to pretend to be one of those people who saw Fergie had moved the team on before we smashed Fulham on the opening day of 2006/07.

Beckham had annoyed me over the cut over the eye thing. Sporting it to the press. Showing everyone how much of a victim he was. I don't know if I share Sir Alex's view that his work rate had dropped significantly. He still looked well up for it when he played. His last game he bent a beautiful free kick into the Everton net. I would not have wanted him to leave but the time was right for him to leave. I think his relationship with Sir Alex had really soured and I'm not sure how long that situation could have continued. I think Beckham was one of those who had wanted Fergie to retire in 2002, and was probably quite annoyed when he changed his mind and stayed on.

Did we want to sell them or did they want out? I think its a bit of both and that comes across from what Fergie says. If you remember Ruud's transfer we tried to sell him to various clubs but he insisted on Madrid, which is why we got stuffed on the fee. I'm open to thinking that Madrid had told Ruud to wait for them, but by the same token had Fergie really wanted him around he wouldn't have sold. I think the time was right for him to go and Madrid had worked themselves into a position where they were well placed to benefit. Beckham, similarly, had fallen out with Sir Alex. Sir Alex will say that's because, like Ruud, he knew Beckham wanted the Madrid life. I think there's truth in that, but I also don't think Sir Alex could stand the celebrity life. Again, Madrid had teed things up to capitalise on that.

Of the players we have sold to Madrid over the years I think the only one we were that keen to keep was Ronaldo. That was one where, clearly, had it been up to Sir Alex Ronaldo would've stayed. There was no personal falling out. Unlike Ruud and Becks who were dropped for big games e.g. league cup final 2006, Champions League knock out 2003, Ronaldo played all the big matches. Plus, Sir Alex seemed to genuinely love Ronaldo and I think Ronaldo genuinely loves him back. They've never had bad words to say about each other. That was one where Madrid began working on the player in 2006 and eventually got him in 2009. De Gea would fall into that category. He is another player we clearly don't want to sell but they have worked on for years to tempt.
This pretty much sums it up. Real Madrid pulled two transfers that were extraordinary in the sense that they were from other fellow big clubs who were desperately wanted by those clubs and that was Figo and our Ronaldo. The other transfers (Brazilian Ronaldo, Beckham, Kaka, Kroos, ...) were not a straight case of Real flexing their muscles but more of a take advantage of a specific set of circumstances kind of thing whether it was the owning club falling down the pecking order or the player in question not wanted that badly.
 
Well I can't argue about the strength in depth argument. But just because those strikers were around at the time does not mean it was necessarily the way for us to move forward. Most of those strikers you mention did not play in teams that were as successful as we were aiming for anyway. The point is when you have Rooney and a 2007 Ronaldo in your team, you need someone to contribute more in the build up and Ruud was never that sort of player. With Ruud, the best way to play is to base the team around him and supply him with balls in the box and Fergie rightfully wanted to move to a more dynamic style that if it relied on one individual, that individual would be a good dribbler/dynamic player a.k.a Ronaldo 2007-2009.

Rooney was the perfect partner for Ruud. He was hardworking, he dropped deep, he could dribble past defenders which meant he could create space for Ruud in few words he was everything Ruud wasn't and viceversa (Ruud was the best finisher in the EPL and was great in air something Rooney wasn't). Ronaldo was a concern. He was such a great player that its a shame to play him deep. Having said that Ronaldo in 2005-2006 was still a young and raw player whom you could unleash against the smaller sides but lacked the consistency to play week in week out. His goals came in fact against the likes of Charlton, Wigan (2), Portsmouth (2), Fulham (2), Bolton (2), Middlesbrough, Debrecen and Westbrom. Surely he couldn't be considered as Ruud replacement. Not at that stage of his career

Saha on the other hand was an exciting striker, a hybrid between Yorke and Cole (he had the magic and technique of the former and the workrate, pace and finishing skills of the latter). In some ways he was an upgrade from Ruud. However you couldn't rely on him cause he was injury prone.

Ruud left when we needed him.
 
The only player that ever left United for unReal that we wanted to keep here was Ronaldo. The rest they can have. The ones they wanted but couldn't get: Keano, Giggsey and Rooney.
 
The only player that ever left United for unReal that we wanted to keep here was Ronaldo. The rest they can have. The ones they wanted but couldn't get: Keano, Giggsey and Rooney.

You forgot Valencia.
 
Weren't they eyeing up Welbeck as well at some point? :nervous:
 
Rooney was the perfect partner for Ruud. He was hardworking, he dropped deep, he could dribble past defenders which meant he could create space for Ruud in few words he was everything Ruud wasn't and viceversa (Ruud was the best finisher in the EPL and was great in air something Rooney wasn't). Ronaldo was a concern. He was such a great player that its a shame to play him deep. Having said that Ronaldo in 2005-2006 was still a young and raw player whom you could unleash against the smaller sides but lacked the consistency to play week in week out. His goals came in fact against the likes of Charlton, Wigan (2), Portsmouth (2), Fulham (2), Bolton (2), Middlesbrough, Debrecen and Westbrom. Surely he couldn't be considered as Ruud replacement. Not at that stage of his career

Saha on the other hand was an exciting striker, a hybrid between Yorke and Cole (he had the magic and technique of the former and the workrate, pace and finishing skills of the latter). In some ways he was an upgrade from Ruud. However you couldn't rely on him cause he was injury prone.

Ruud left when we needed him.
Sorry mate but I honestly don't see how you can claim that Ruud left when we needed him when our record with him was 1 title in 4 or 5 years. Yes we did not have as much strength in depth but that was still an abysmal record. Your theory only makes sense if Fergie couldn't envisage a team before it actually played. He clearly thought that the way forward was to build around Rooney and Ronaldo. I did not say Ronaldo was a replacement for Ruud but that we wanted to move to another more dynamic style where the focus was not the main attacker. What followed was clearly a demonstration that Fergie's vision was spot on. The only question is would we have been more successful had Ruud stayed and I don't think so simply because I don't see Ronaldo blossoming the same way in a team that was focused on supplying its number 9.
 
How on earth can that be the case? We won the fecking league the next three seasons! :nervous::lol:

The 2006-2007 saw a small but rather significant change in the name of Michael Carrick. We replaced Roy Keane who was finished at top level with a great midfielder. That brought vigour back to the squad. However its not unreasonable to think that a fully dedicated Ruud wouldn't have strengthened the side. First of all he was still a top striker and the best finisher around. Secondly his experience would have certainly helped the younger guns. Can you imagine what impact he could have had on a young Rooney? If only he taught him to be a bit more selfish and disciplined upfront than I believe we would have a much better Rooney to the one we have now
 
The 2006-2007 saw a small but rather significant change in the name of Michael Carrick. We replaced Roy Keane who was finished at top level with a great midfielder. That brought vigour back to the squad. However its not unreasonable to think that a fully dedicated Ruud wouldn't have strengthened the side. First of all he was still a top striker and the best finisher around. Secondly his experience would have certainly helped the younger guns. Can you imagine what impact he could have had on a young Rooney? If only he taught him to be a bit more selfish and disciplined upfront than I believe we would have a much better Rooney to the one we have now

So you're basing your argument on pure conjecture and little on actual events that followed...

Right. Just so I know what I'm dealing with here.

I would quite succinctly put forward (and many would agree I'm almost certain) that RVN leaving, was the best thing that happened for Saha, Rooney and Ronaldo.
 
SAF got fed up with Beckham because he lost focus and became too much of an ego - particularly he didn't stick to his role in the team, often coming inside to get on the ball when his role was to work the right hand side and feed the strikers. But Beckham was a fantastic player for us for many years, and the drop in his performance level was relatively minor.

RVN was a prima donna in his last season and I was glad to see the back of him. He didn't really hit heights after he left either. He thought he was undroppable but his form didn't agree with that.
 
The hard truth which many refuse to face is that no matter what we say or think about how big a club United is, most players will see Real Madrid as a step up from us, and probably rightly so.

Rightly so? We're talking about a club that has invested millions and millions and, prior to Mourinho getting there, was constantly getting eliminated in the QF or earlier in the CL for a period of time.

This is Real from 04 to 10:

2004 - Champions League Quarter-Final
2005 - Champions League 2nd Round
2006 - Champions League 2nd Round
2007 - Champions League 2nd Round
2008 - Champions League 2nd Round
2009 - Champions League 2nd Round
2010 - Champions League 2nd Round

Ruud moved there in '06, Beckham moved there in '07, in '07 we reached the semi-final and went on to win the competition a year later. Real was hardly a step up from a pure footballing perspective, especially in Beckham's case. Marketing wise, it was obviously good for him and I think that's the reason he went there.

In Ruud's case, I honestly believe he wasn't happy with our roster and decided he wanted to move on.
 
Ferguson wanted Beckham and Van Nistelrooy out of the club. Beckham because of his lifestyle and profile and RVN because he was causing problems off the field with Ronaldo/Queiroz.

The fact both seemed happy to go to Real once we decided to sell them and that United were happy to sell to Real is only secondary to the fact that United wanted to get rid of them first.

Real didn't orchestrate the situation like they did with Ronaldo.
 
Rightly so? We're talking about a club that has invested millions and millions and, prior to Mourinho getting there, was constantly getting eliminated in the QF or earlier in the CL for a period of time.

This is Real from 04 to 10:

2004 - Champions League Quarter-Final
2005 - Champions League 2nd Round
2006 - Champions League 2nd Round
2007 - Champions League 2nd Round
2008 - Champions League 2nd Round
2009 - Champions League 2nd Round
2010 - Champions League 2nd Round

Ruud moved there in '06, Beckham moved there in '07, in '07 we reached the semi-final and went on to win the competition a year later. Real was hardly a step up from a pure footballing perspective, especially in Beckham's case. Marketing wise, it was obviously good for him and I think that's the reason he went there.

In Ruud's case, I honestly believe he wasn't happy with our roster and decided he wanted to move on.

Didn't Beckham join Real in 03'? Also when Ronaldo left for Madrid we were still above them from a footballing perspective, only to overtake us in 2011 after splashing all that money to bring the likes of Ozil, Khedira, Di Maria, Carvalho etc whereas Fergie still had the dream of developing another CR7
 
Lowering the performances in order to make the move possible isn't something new (Ibra did it for Ajax).

Discuss!

It's possible, however, Ruud looked happy enough at United when he was celebrating the goals with the players in the League Cup final but he's mood seemed to change when Fergie didn't bring him on in the final. After which is was the beginning if the end for the Dutchman. But yeah I see no reason that we may have sold them after it came clear they wanted to be elsewhere.

Question is, why do Real like buying our players? Does it give them a superiority complex over us?
 
It is not just us, they buy whoever is flavor of the month. Which has largely contributed to their shite performance in Europe, the domination of Barca and the rise of teams like AM. It also explains the high turnover in Managers.
 
Yes, we did want to sell RVN. He was scoring goals but they were often at the cost of the overall team performances. Rooney and Ronaldo simply played better with a more mobile and complete CF, who Saha was at the time.

Beckham was slightly different. I think the marketing hacks were a little concerned but in terms of performance level, it became obvious by the end of that season that both he and us, needed a change of scenery. It worked out for us in the long haul. Him, not so much.
 
I would have thought Fergie not using Ruud in the League Cup Final would have been an indication of what was to come
We played the second team in Carling Cup, and Fergie apparently said to Ruud that he wants to play in final the players who played in the competition, but will use Ruud in the second half. The in the second half he explained to Ruud that he would prefer to give Evra/Vidic a change to get a trophy (while Ruud had already won a few) and so didn't put Ruud in.

Ruud went batshit crazy.
 
Maybe real did contact them before but I'm sure the sales were made on our terms and because we wanted. No way beckham would have been able to leave if SAF had told him shut up and play on. At the end of the day SAF too was probably annoyed and just let him leave. Ronaldo for instance could have easily left for a small fee with a year on his contract but he signed a new contract and we got £80m because of his gratitude to SAF. I don't think beckham or any of the other class of 92/United players in general for the matter dared to do anything that SAF disapproved(going by what they said in their interviews). Such was the power he had over his players.

So the point - Did Madrid made us sell or did we sell ? We sold. To Madrid or anyone who was willing to buy we would have sold. This is what I feel.
 
We did end up wanting to sell them, but at the same time I don't think either player did anything on purpose in terms of football to push us to sell them. I don't think Beckham's last season was bad at all, even though he was benched for a few big games when Solskjaer was doing so well on the right. He still contributed when he played, including some big assists to RVN. Same goes for Ruud in his last year. Things went sour, but he didn't stop trying in order to engineer a move to Real.
 
How anyone can argue that we needed him is beyond me.

We didn't. Fergie won it with kids (Rooney and Ronaldo), and he did it in style. Ruud on his part went on to never look as good again as he did for United - without winning anything more considerable or prestigious than he would have if he had stayed. Considerably less, in fact.

The only conceivable, but extremely tenuous, argument one could make is that we would have won the 2007 CL if Ruud had stayed. As it stands, we won the league (in style) and reached the CL semifinal - and won the bloody thing the following season. Extremely tenuous, as said.
 
Didn't Beckham join Real in 03'? Also when Ronaldo left for Madrid we were still above them from a footballing perspective, only to overtake us in 2011 after splashing all that money to bring the likes of Ozil, Khedira, Di Maria, Carvalho etc whereas Fergie still had the dream of developing another CR7

You're right, he moved to LA in '07 I think, don't know what my memory was telling me there.
 
You're right, he moved to LA in '07 I think, don't know what my memory was telling me there.

Incredible though how Ronaldo left to join a club that wasn't on our level at the time, and eventually millions after million spent they managed to build another great team.
 
Ruud was supposedly a bit of a cnut near the end. Remember him being left out of the league cup final and then having a scrap with Ronaldo and saying something about his dad. I don't think Fergie was too arsed about getting rid of him.

He meant Carlow Quieroz as his "dad", due to his supposed preferential treatment of him.

But because it came around the time Ronaldo's actual dad died, it obviously sounded a much more personal nasty attack
 
Not really. He was a starter and our best striker. He got benched only in the last 10 games of the season or so, but that wasn't for footballing reasons. By then, SAF had decided to sell him and so even Giussepe Rossi was starting ahead of him (when Saha wasn't available).

If Ruud wouldn't have been pushing for a move, he would have never got benched. He was light years ahead of Saha in terms of footballing ability.

Was such a shame of an ending, but Saha had become the first choice striker by then. He did slow our attack down a bit, whereas Saha shone as a pacy more mobile outlet.

Loved VN, was back in the days it was an absolute given he would score sh!Tloads. Made Andy Cole, who had a good record, look absolutely pony in comparison
 
We played the second team in Carling Cup, and Fergie apparently said to Ruud that he wants to play in final the players who played in the competition, but will use Ruud in the second half. The in the second half he explained to Ruud that he would prefer to give Evra/Vidic a change to get a trophy (while Ruud had already won a few) and so didn't put Ruud in.

Ruud went batshit crazy.
I love Fergie, but they had fallen out long before that.Fergie had a way on nudging players out, and you could see it during that game that something was up..RVN had been dropped for games coming into that one I recall..When he collected his medal, he looked like he would rather be elsewhere.

That was just classic Fergie, I miss that so much...
 
Incredible though how Ronaldo left to join a club that wasn't on our level at the time, and eventually millions after million spent they managed to build another great team.

He's one where I can understand that he was looking for another challenge at another big club. Joining Barcelona was probably not in the books because he wanted to top Messi. Ronaldo had won almost everything he possibly could have when he left us.

In RVN's case I don't understand the transfer, which is why I tend to believe had actually had issues with our squad and with SAF.
 
In his final season, it was clear Manchester United was Backham's 4th priority behind his family, England captaincy and ever growing 'DB7 brand'. As somebody posted above, his lack of focus became so bad, SAF even has to play Solskjaer on right midfield in his place, so erratic had his performances become.

The dressing room fracas did not help events, and whilst SAF was very much at fault for the freak 'flying boot' accident, Beckhams subsequent public 'alice band' photographs initiated a public PR war that could only ever lead to one end.

I was once Beckhams biggest ever fan, loved him to bits, but I felt betrayed by the way he insulted SAF and how he left the club. Upon reflection, I don't think he initially wanted to leave for Madrid. But as his fame spiralled so SAF became more irate about his priorities. This irritation damaged the admiration SAF had for Beckham and when the boot incident happened, it was pretty much the final nail in the coffin.

With no desire to change his celebrity lifestyle and an irreparable relationship with his manager, Beckham had little choice but to seek a move elsewhere. A player of Beckham's stature would interest every top club in the world and Im sure his agent took calls regularly. Its a moot point whether Beckham was flirting with Madrid or not, but I think when news of his rapidly deteriorating relationship with SAF reached the ears of the Madrid hierarchy, they would have quickly enquired about his transfer status.

Beckham was a Manchester United great but his leaving was not a major issue for the club: the emergence of Ronaldo, Rooney et all provided the basis for the most successful era in the clubs history. Its also sad that Beckham could not recapture his brilliance and his career slowly petered out at Madrid and LA Galaxy.
 
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How wrong was van Nistelrooy about us not winning Champions League? He went and a year later we won the league, two years later and we had Champions League while he never progressed past Last 16 in the remainder of his career.
Everyone thought that at the time really didn't we? But just before Ruud actually left Ronaldo was getting better and better every week, like accelerating crazy levels and it got even more stupid after he left. That was the reason for our success after RVN's departure.

In May 2005 who could have seen how good Ronaldo would become alongside Rooney - and that practically every signing Fergie would make over the next 18 months (Vidic, Evra, Park, VDS) would become legends at United.
 
Everyone thought that at the time really didn't we? But just before Ruud actually left Ronaldo was getting better and better every week, like accelerating crazy levels and it got even more stupid after he left. That was the reason for our success after RVN's departure.

In May 2005 who could have seen how good Ronaldo would become alongside Rooney - and that practically every signing Fergie would make over the next 18 months (Vidic, Evra, Park, VDS) would become legends at United.

Actually the first glimpses of a potentially title winning side were seen when van Nistelrooy had been dropped in 2005. We won Carling Cup with him on the bench for the final and had a very strong finish to a league campaign, our first game since Ruud's departure was something else though.
 
Actually the first glimpses of a potentially title winning side were seen when van Nistelrooy had been dropped in 2005. We won Carling Cup with him on the bench for the final and had a very strong finish to a league campaign, our first game since Ruud's departure was something else though.
I know but when Ruud said we didn't have what it takes (in May 05) we really did look miles off Chelsea.
 
absolutely gutted by selling becks, a bit less with RVN... we needed to sell both though..
 
I think we wanted rid of both of them more so than them wanting to leave.

Ruud was becoming a problem with his clashes with team mates, and allegedly asking to leave. One thing Sir Alex has done is he's tolerated a lot of nonsense with players as long as they were contributing. I have no doubts that if Roy Keane made his outburst in 97, we would've fined him and it would end there. But in 2005, Roy wasn't the player he was and we got rid. Same with Rooney. We went all out to keep him when he first handed in his transfer request. When his performances dipped and Sir Alex signed RVP and had high regard for both Kagawa and Welbeck, most of us here think he'd of gotten rid of Wayne. Its the same with Ruud. when we thought we didn't need him and that he wasn't worth the trouble, we were quick to move him on.
 
Ferguson wanted Beckham and Van Nistelrooy out of the club. Beckham because of his lifestyle and profile and RVN because he was causing problems off the field with Ronaldo/Queiroz.

The fact both seemed happy to go to Real once we decided to sell them and that United were happy to sell to Real is only secondary to the fact that United wanted to get rid of them first.

Real didn't orchestrate the situation like they did with Ronaldo.
I agree with this analysis! It's not even a behind the close door secret when Sir Alex honestly believed Becks celebrity status has been a disruption of both his performance and the dressing room. SAF wasn't afraid of expressing his displease (after all SAF is a disciplined man himself and expect total concentration de his players.) Anything that is jeopardising the hope and chance of the club's success was not to be tolerated, and rightly so! Becks was becoming bigger than the team (although it maybe more due to his wife's influence and the media than coming from himself initially)

And you are right on about RvN. After all, Sir Alex was in total control of the situation and would have no regret as we can see what we achieved in the subsequent three seasons.

CR7 was another story. Sir Alex still loved him (and Ronney still regarded him a father figure - who had nurtured him - up to this date) but didn't want to deny his desire to play in Spain and Real did orchestrate it shamelessly!
 
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I think we wanted rid of both of them more so than them wanting to leave.

Ruud was becoming a problem with his clashes with team mates, and allegedly asking to leave. One thing Sir Alex has done is he's tolerated a lot of nonsense with players as long as they were contributing. I have no doubts that if Roy Keane made his outburst in 97, we would've fined him and it would end there. But in 2005, Roy wasn't the player he was and we got rid. Same with Rooney. We went all out to keep him when he first handed in his transfer request. When his performances dipped and Sir Alex signed RVP and had high regard for both Kagawa and Welbeck, most of us here think he'd of gotten rid of Wayne. Its the same with Ruud. when we thought we didn't need him and that he wasn't worth the trouble, we were quick to move him on.
Agreed!
 
Beckham had been working with SAF for more than a decade. He knew exactly that SAF was the law at OT and what pissed him off. Despite everything he

a- stalled from signing a new contract and made the club sweat only for him to sign a short term deal.
b- he came with all sort of excuses to skip training and he moved more into the limelight
c- he swore at the manager
d- his performances nosedived. The situation became so ridiculous that there were times when SAF preferred to play Ole to him
e- when Manchester United placed him into the transfer market, he refused to negotiate with no one apart from Real.

I don't care what Beckham said when he retired and no one wanted him anymore but I cant see how a person can say that he loved the club and he didn't want to leave it. You don't do this sort of crap and expect to remain in the job. Its like a Microsoft worker kicking Bill Gates in the balls and expecting to remain at his work.

Also the very fact that this pattern happened in numerous occasions with other players (RVN, Ronaldo's 'slave' season, DDG refusing to sign a new contract etc) shows that there's more than co-incidence on the matter. After all even Zidane admitted that Real poached him long before they even approached Juventus for him
Doesn't really answer my question. You're just trying to paint a picture to suit your agenda. You can also turn it around.

SAF kicked a boot at Beckham
He benched him for a forward
He openly disagreed with his lifestyle which was frankly none of his business as long as it didn't affect his performance.

It's all guess work anyways, All that I'm asking about are quotes from SAF that said different things than his book said years before it came out.
 
Doesn't really answer my question. You're just trying to paint a picture to suit your agenda. You can also turn it around.

SAF kicked a boot at Beckham
He benched him for a forward
He openly disagreed with his lifestyle which was frankly none of his business as long as it didn't affect his performance.

It's all guess work anyways, All that I'm asking about are quotes from SAF that said different things than his book said years before it came out.

Beckham swore at SAF, He benched him because his performance declined and they declined because of his lifestyle. Ah what a great servant to the club Beckham was.