Were we happy to sell Beckham and van Nistelrooy to Madrid?

[The Law of Denis]

That is like saying that De Gea is now second choice (assuming that we don't play him 'till January) and then sell him.

He is second choice, but that it isn't for football reasons.

That's not true at all. The major sulking from Ruud came after he was dropped.

 

[GloryHunter07]

Does it have to be one or the other? Sure Ruud wanted to go, but it seems clear to me that he was becoming a nuisance to Fergie and was standing in the way of Rooney and Ronnie. Mutual.

 

[K2K]

In the case of Ruud, I think it simply sounds like he was open to moving to Madrid from day one. When our performances dipped and he did not have confidence in the quality of our squad, he pushed for the move more aggressively. Fergie was smart enough to anticipate that and plan around it so by the end he was not missed. In the case of Beckham however, I really think both him and Fergie are not telling it like it was. Beckham wants it to come across like he was kicked out of his boyhood club and Fergie wants it to look like Beckham's heart was not in it anymore which meant it was best to get rid. The truth as usual was probably somewhere in the middle. Beckham was probably attracted to the idea of expanding his portfolio and having more freedom commercially and Fergie was simply fed up with the circle around him. When you add 2 and 2 together, the best outcome for all parties was to part ways.

People want to narrow down every story as a straight case of "he left us for them" or "we got rid of them" when reality is usually a wee bit more complicated than that but what you gonna do, narratives sell and they always will.

Think that sums it up really, and I actually agree with that.

 

[devilish]

I'm not thinking about "something" I read. I'm thinking about previous comments from SAF. Something selling him because of what his lifestyle was becoming, hinting at Victoria or something like that.

Beckham had been working with SAF for more than a decade. He knew exactly that SAF was the law at OT and what pissed him off. Despite everything he

a- stalled from signing a new contract and made the club sweat only for him to sign a short term deal.
b- he came with all sort of excuses to skip training and he moved more into the limelight
c- he swore at the manager
d- his performances nosedived. The situation became so ridiculous that there were times when SAF preferred to play Ole to him
e- when Manchester United placed him into the transfer market, he refused to negotiate with no one apart from Real.

I don't care what Beckham said when he retired and no one wanted him anymore but I cant see how a person can say that he loved the club and he didn't want to leave it. You don't do this sort of crap and expect to remain in the job. Its like a Microsoft worker kicking Bill Gates in the balls and expecting to remain at his work.

Also the very fact that this pattern happened in numerous occasions with other players (RVN, Ronaldo's 'slave' season, DDG refusing to sign a new contract etc) shows that there's more than co-incidence on the matter. After all even Zidane admitted that Real poached him long before they even approached Juventus for him

 

[Ringo 07]

Van Nistelrooy was well past it by the time we flogged him to Madrid.......also for Ronaldo's benefit it was the right move.....

I think selling Beckham was a msitake...he still had a lot to offer....he scored so many free kicks for us in tight games that helped us to win titles.....Madrid made ridiculous profits from his purchase BUT.....Fegie obviously felt Beckham was too big for his boots and for that reason then obviously it was the correct choice.....also Beckham leaving left a void that Ronaldo eventually came to fill so we didn´t miss Beckham in the end but from a financial point of view it was crazy to seel him

 

[MarkC]

I think Van Nistelrooy went due more to SAF realising we would be better off without him by that point.

Beckham I think our hand got forced to some extent, there had been rumours for a long time that he had Victoria pushing him to get a move to a nice city i.e Barcelona or somewhere in Italy where the sun shines. I've no doubt SAF was running out of patience with having dramas with him in the press and his attention seeking lifestyle so it suited both really.

 

[devilish]

Van Nistelrooy was well past it by the time we flogged him to Madrid.......also for Ronaldo's benefit it was the right move.....

I think selling Beckham was a msitake...he still had a lot to offer....he scored so many free kicks for us in tight games that helped us to win titles.....Madrid made ridiculous profits from his purchase BUT.....Fegie obviously felt Beckham was too big for his boots and for that reason then obviously it was the correct choice.....also Beckham leaving left a void that Ronaldo eventually came to fill so we didn´t miss Beckham in the end but from a financial point of view it was crazy to seel him

I believe that we didn't want to sell neither of them. RVN was still the best finisher in football. At Real he was a goal machine. Beckham was our poster boy and the best passer of the ball the world had ever seen. SAF would have been mad to sell either of them unless.....they forced his hand. Now why on earth would they do that and why did they both refused to listen to other offers than the Real Madrid's one?

To put things clear. I agree with United's stance in both occasions.

 

[United22]

Ronaldo is the best thing to have happened to us player wise in the last decade. We definitely cannot look back with any regret on the sales of both Beckham and Ruud in any way

 

[stubie]

Saha's form in the 2nd half of the 2005/06 season meant we could afford to sell Ruud

 

[iammemphis]

RVN. What a player he was.

 

[slyadams]

Ruud by the time he left was comfortably second choice, although he would have gotten plenty of games due to Saha's fitness issues, he was very obviously slowing down our attack and past his usual excellent standard. We did not look back on selling him, he was a cancer in the dressing room. In the end, if he had stayed and was less of an ass he could have been in Sir Alex's best team.

Beckham I think hurt a lot more, he was the golden boy, home grown, number 7 and beloved by all. There was no he could have stayed after defying Sir Alex.

Not really. He was a starter and our best striker. He got benched only in the last 10 games of the season or so, but that wasn't for footballing reasons. By then, SAF had decided to sell him and so even Giussepe Rossi was starting ahead of him (when Saha wasn't available).

If Ruud wouldn't have been pushing for a move, he would have never got benched. He was light years ahead of Saha in terms of footballing ability.

Agree with @The Law of Denis here. Whilst Ruud might have still been first choice for most of the season when he left, I don't think he was when he left, nor would he have been the next season. Ruud was not well suited to the type of football Fergie knew we needed to start playing in order to be successful in Europe. Roll foward a couple of years and we had a front three of Rooney, Ronaldo and Tevez playing a type of football beyond Ruud, who was pretty 1 dimesnional.

Just a quick word on Saha, I think on pure ability he had more to his game than Ruud. Unfortunately injury, or his approach/attitude to injury, prevented him from remotely realizing his potential.

 

[devilish]

Saha's form in the 2nd half of the 2005/06 season meant we could afford to sell Ruud

Saha was playing some of the best football in his career however everyone knew he was injury prone. SAF didn't sell Ruud because of Saha

 

[Chesterlestreet]

People want to narrow down every story as a straight case of "he left us for them" or "we got rid of them" when reality is usually a wee bit more complicated than that but what you gonna do, narratives sell and they always will.

Well said.

Another thing: Even if it's true that Madrid effectively tapped up Ruud and Beckham, and that they made the most out of being unsettled, even to the point of dropping their performance levels, etc. - this surely doesn't reflect badly on Manchester United? Unless one thinks being able to orchestrate such underhanded shenanigans is something to be proud of, all it says it that Madrid have availed themselves of a few dirty tricks over the years. The latter being the conspicuous part, really, not the overwhelming attraction of the club itself.

 

[Born2Lose]

Because Beckham has somehow manipulated everyone into thinking he got kicked out of his boyhood club, rather than forcing a move.

This is what I have always thought too, and I'd take Sir Alex's version of events over Beckham's any day of the week.

 

[Theonas]

I believe that we didn't want to sell neither of them. RVN was still the best finisher in football. At Real he was a goal machine. Beckham was our poster boy and the best passer of the ball the world had ever seen. SAF would have been mad to sell either of them unless.....they forced his hand. Now why on earth would they do that and why did they both refused to listen to other offers than the Real Madrid's one?

To put things clear. I agree with United's stance in both occasions.

I don't think Beckham was as hurt by leaving us as he claimed but to suggest Fergie was mad to sell him is over stretching it. I think he's been eyeing it for some time before Beckham eventually left, probably since Victoria came along to be honest. The most logical way to look at this is that both parties did not see it as a big loss to part ways and were happy with the outcome. Beckham only wanted Real Madrid which makes a lot of sense as with his portfolio, the only club worth leaving for was them.

Ruud is a different case altogether, true he was a great goalscorer but that doesn't mean he made us a better team. Far from it in fact, we had to play to his strength which meant we sacrificed too much elsewhere (a similar argument could be made for Ronaldo with Real Madrid lately). Again Ruud was happy to leave but Fergie was far from broken about it. He started building without Ruud in mind long before the transfer so by the time he left, we never missed him. I don't know why you are desperate to drive the "they poach our players from us" angle but there simply are too many variants to limit all those stories into those black and white scenarios. Ronaldo and now De Gea are as clear as they come, they wanted a move to Real Madrid and despite our best efforts we couldn't resist them. Ruud and especially Beckham was more to it than that.

 

[Jev]

The hard truth which many refuse to face is that no matter what we say or think about how big a club United is, most players will see Real Madrid as a step up from us, and probably rightly so.

 

[devilish]

I don't think Beckham was as hurt by leaving us as he claimed but to suggest Fergie was mad to sell him is over stretching it. I think he's been eyeing it for some time before Beckham eventually left, probably since Victoria came along to be honest. The most logical way to look at this is that both parties did not see it as a big loss to part ways and were happy with the outcome. Beckham only wanted Real Madrid which makes a lot of sense as with his portfolio, the only club worth leaving for was them.

Ruud is a different case altogether, true he was a great goalscorer but that doesn't mean he made us a better team. Far from it in fact, we had to play to his strength which meant we sacrificed too much elsewhere (a similar argument could be made for Ronaldo with Real Madrid lately). Again Ruud was happy to leave but Fergie was far from broken about it. He started building without Ruud in mind long before the transfer so by the time he left, we never missed him. I don't know why you are desperate to drive the "they poach our players from us" angle but there simply are too many variants to limit all those stories into those black and white scenarios. Ronaldo and now De Gea are as clear as they come, they wanted a move to Real Madrid and despite our best efforts we couldn't resist them. Ruud and especially Beckham was more to it than that.

Wait a minute he would be mad to sell him (or both TBH) if they were giving their 100 percent for our cause. Once their heads got turned to Real, SAF did the right thing to sell them up

 

[Minimalist]

I believe that we didn't want to sell neither of them. 1. RVN was still the best finisher in football. At Real he was a goal machine. 2. Beckham was our poster boy and the best passer of the ball the world had ever seen. SAF would have been mad to sell either of them unless.....they forced his hand. Now why on earth would they do that and why did they both refused to listen to other offers than the Real Madrid's one?

To put things clear. I agree with United's stance in both occasions.

1. RVN was out of form though. Ferguson clearly didn't mind letting him go given the fee was modest. Nothing about the RVN transfers suggests we were reluctant. The fans perhaps but not the club or Ferguson.
2. I grew up a massive fan of Beckham and he was the clubs poster boy for sure, but you're giving credit to Beckham he doesn't deserve here. Best passer of the ball the world had ever seen? That's just nonsense.

 

[Speak]

The hard truth which many refuse to face is that no matter what we say or think about how big a club United is, most players will see Real Madrid as a step up from us, and probably rightly so.

Yep. And it's really not the end of the world.

 

[Revan]

Well said.

Another thing: Even if it's true that Madrid effectively tapped up Ruud and Beckham, and that they made the most out of being unsettled, even to the point of dropping their performance levels, etc. - this surely doesn't reflect badly on Manchester United? Unless one thinks being able to orchestrate such underhanded shenanigans is something to be proud of, all it says it that Madrid have availed themselves of a few dirty tricks over the years. The latter being the conspicuous part, really, not the overwhelming attraction of the club itself.

It doesn't reflect that bad at us, but it isn't exactly the narrative that 'until now they were able to get only one player that we didn't want to sell from us'. RvN and Beckham were players we didn't want to sell initially, and then they became cnuts and we decided to sell.

About the dirty tricks, well we tried to do exactly that with Ramos. Apparently we did something similar with Stam almost 2 decades ago. We convinced Herrera to authorize us paying his release clause, despite that we are not supposed to contact a player without getting a bid accepted.

In other words, we use some dirty tricks too. Just that Madrid do it in a far larger scale and at times we become their victims.

 

[Minimalist]

Yep. And it's really not the end of the world.

Well that's just it isn't it?

I don't know why some are so up in arms about this when it's usually just S.American and S.European players we're talking of here.

The mistake is letting British players like Gareth Bale go to Madrid. That's the sort of thing that is frustrating.

 

[Theonas]

Wait a minute he would be mad to sell him (or both TBH) if they were giving their 100 percent for our cause. Once their heads got turned to Real, SAF did the right thing to sell them up

100% of Ruud still meant a static attack that, it was a one trick pony attack. Of course that trick was as great as they come but it still meant we were predictable. As I said in the previous post, Ronaldo with Real is a close case, yes he scores goals at a ridiculous rate but at what expense? It was clear that getting rid of Ruud and replacing him with a less prolific Saha has freed us our attack and made it much more dynamic. The cliché of the best individual players don't necessarily make the teams rings true here.

As for Beckham, he really was my favourite United player and I never hated a sale more than his. But if we're being honest here, he was not the same player when he left, not by a long stretch. And I don't think that's because he was not giving 100% which is demonstrated by his performances for Real. He simply was not the most talented player but he more than made up for it with his energy, work rate and a passing ability that was simply phenomenal. When he left the passing was still there but his other strengths were not the same which made him 70% to 75% the player he was. It is why him and Keane did not last as long as Scholes or Giggs who had other non-physical related strengths.

 

[Nighteyes]

So Ruud though we couldn't win the CL with Rooney and Ronaldo? Well, the joke's on him then.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Is it still sacrilege to point out that SAF's book might not be the most objective view of events, in either case?

This seems fairly self evident in any biography, Fergie or otherwise.

'Fergie blaming fan favourites Beckham and Van Nistelrooy for their exit from Manchester United'

Who would have thought it.

 

[K2K]

So Ruud though we couldn't win the CL with Rooney and Ronaldo? Well, the joke's on him then.

In 2006, that looked like a fair bet, and a lot of people including those in the media had written of SAF

 

[Nighteyes]

In 2006, that looked like a fair bet, and a lot of people including those in the media had written of SAF

People always write us off, some fans included. feck them. You would think they would have learned not to write off a Fergie led United at least...

 

[Theonas]

The hard truth which many refuse to face is that no matter what we say or think about how big a club United is, most players will see Real Madrid as a step up from us, and probably rightly so.

Of course that's true but so what? Perez and his crew put in 10 years of work to actively work on that image of the "exclusive" club. At most times that came at the expense of actual success on the pitch. Barcelona wiped the floor with them over the past decade and they're still at best equal to them attractiveness wise. What does this say is attractiveness is not necessarily a significant measure for anything really. Up to the early '00s, football was not as multinational as it is today, back then, Real, Barcelona, Juventus, Milan and Inter controlled the Latin and South American market, nobody came close but they were equal big hitters. We were the big dogs in Britain and I would say in Scandinavia as well. Holland and France remained a bit in between and their players could go either way.

After the '00s Real bought Figo from Barcelona and Zidane from Juventus in what went on to establish that image of the "club to be at" or the Galacticos or whatever. That then put them ahead of their rivals in Spain and Italy attraction wise. What matters though is what did they have to sacrifice for that strategy? And the answer is in my opinion quite a lot. Our problem is not that we are not as attractive as them but that after Fergie we (like the rest of England) have abandoned what we, Barcelona, Bayern and others used to and started attempting this half baked Real Madrid approach. They're better at it than us, they're better than everyone at it because they're more interested in it than actual success, we were never going to compete with them in that sense.

 

[Eyepopper]

Both became disruptive influences, under Fergie that was only going to finish one way.

In the case of Becks, IMO, moving to Madrid was part of the 'brand Beckham' project, similar in some ways to his move to the US, although obviously Madrid would hardly be seen as a step down.

Both would have more medals in their locker had they stayed where they were wouldn't they?

I still think its a shame in the case of Beckham, along with Neville, Scholes and Giggs, he should have ended his career here.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

In other words, we use some dirty tricks too.

Sure we do - everyone's at it. My point is that the "oh no, we're being embarrassed by Madrid again" line has to be founded in something, no? So, what's the actual embarrassment? They tap up players who are unprofessional enough to deliberately lower their performance levels? Not that embarrassing, really.

We offload a player who initially wanted to join Liverpool to them, a player we don't want and don't need? Utterly un-embarrassing. For us, at least.

They pay a world record fee for a Ballon d'Or winner who "dreams" of playing for them? Annoying, but hardly embarrassing.

They feck up the deal for a Galactico style keeper who wants to join them - and who now has to bite the bullet and play for us one more season? I don't know about others but personally I'm not even slightly embarrassed. Slightly amused more than anything.

 

[Revan]

Sure we do - everyone's at it. My point is that the "oh no, we're being embarrassed by Madrid again" line has to be founded in something, no? So, what's the actual embarrassment? They tap up players who are unprofessional enough to deliberately lower their performance levels? Not that embarrassing, really.

We offload a player who initially wanted to join Liverpool to them, a player we don't want and don't need? Utterly un-embarrassing. For us, at least.

They pay a world record fee for a Ballon d'Or winner who "dreams" of playing for them? Annoying, but hardly embarrassing.

They feck up the deal for a Galactico style keeper who wants to join them - and who now has to bite the bullet and play for us one more season? I don't know about others but personally I'm not even slightly embarrassed. Slightly amused more than anything.

No-one was mentioning 'embarrasment' in this thread.

It was more a discussion if Madrid managed to force us sell RvN and Beckham to them, or we wanted to get rid of those two (obviously, in Heinze case, we wanted to sell him after he lost his place, so I didn't mention him).

 

[Chesterlestreet]

No-one was mentioning 'embarrasment' in this thread.

I know - slight tangent. Still, it seems to be that more than anything which underlies most of the Madrid related stuff on here.

 

[mariachi-19]

Both became disruptive influences, under Fergie that was only going to finish one way.

In the case of Becks, IMO, moving to Madrid was part of the 'brand Beckham' project, similar in some ways to his move to the US, although obviously Madrid would hardly be seen as a step down.

Both would have more medals in their locker had they stayed where they were wouldn't they?

I still think its a shame in the case of Beckham, along with Neville, Scholes and Giggs, he should have ended his career here.

As much as either could have won more, think about Ronaldo and what he could have won. Bet he'll regret it later in life

 

[Eyepopper]

As much as either could have won more, think about Ronaldo and what he could have won. Bet he'll regret it later in life

I always get the feeling personal profile is more important to Ronaldo.

 

[stubie]

Saha was playing some of the best football in his career however everyone knew he was injury prone. SAF didn't sell Ruud because of Saha

I would have thought Fergie not using Ruud in the League Cup Final would have been an indication of what was to come

 

[K2K]

People always write us off, some fans included. feck them. You would think they would have learned not to write off a Fergie led United at least...

They never did learn, but remember this was the time that Mourinho was conquering all before him, and United were struggling..How Fergie turned that one around, only he knows..but what a man!

 

[K2K]

I would have thought Fergie not using Ruud in the League Cup Final would have been an indication of what was to come

Still remember him sulking like crazy during that Final as he collected his medal..the writing was on the wall that day..

 

[devilish]

100% of Ruud still meant a static attack that, it was a one trick pony attack. Of course that trick was as great as they come but it still meant we were predictable. As I said in the previous post, Ronaldo with Real is a close case, yes he scores goals at a ridiculous rate but at what expense? It was clear that getting rid of Ruud and replacing him with a less prolific Saha has freed us our attack and made it much more dynamic. The cliché of the best individual players don't necessarily make the teams rings true here.

As for Beckham, he really was my favourite United player and I never hated a sale more than his. But if we're being honest here, he was not the same player when he left, not by a long stretch. And I don't think that's because he was not giving 100% which is demonstrated by his performances for Real. He simply was not the most talented player but he more than made up for it with his energy, work rate and a passing ability that was simply phenomenal. When he left the passing was still there but his other strengths were not the same which made him 70% to 75% the player he was. It is why him and Keane did not last as long as Scholes or Giggs who had other non-physical related strengths.

While football was moving on to the complete sort of striker such as Henry, Rooney and Shevcenko, the RVN type of strikers were still popular in those times. Inzaghi, Owen and Vieri were among the most lethal and sought for strikers in the world. If I remember well our issues back at the time was quality strength in depth and the DM role. SAF kept insisting on Roy Keane when it was evident that he couldn't play at that level any more while our strength in depth in CM was simply ridiculous. Miller, Fortune, Richardson, Smith, Ngalula...this were not United level midfielders. Things would change to the better with Carrick replacing Keane + Ronaldo, Fletcher and Rooney growing up however at that point the team was passing from what many people at redcafe used to call it 'a transition period'

 

[devilish]

I would have thought Fergie not using Ruud in the League Cup Final would have been an indication of what was to come

I think by that time the bridges were already burnt. Also who would throw the dummy for not playing in the frigging League cup final? TBH I find that more of an excuse from Ruud to push his way out of OT than anything else

 

[#07]

I was shocked and annoyed when Ruud left. Mostly because, although I thought Saha was good, I didn't think he was that good. Also, Rooney was good but still young and Ronaldo had yet to prove he was going to be anywhere near as good as he went on to be. I was worried about where the goals would come from and I thought we'd been ripped off with the fee. Just over £10 million for one of the most consistent goal scorers of the past decade? Ridiculous! I'm not going to pretend to be one of those people who saw Fergie had moved the team on before we smashed Fulham on the opening day of 2006/07.

Beckham had annoyed me over the cut over the eye thing. Sporting it to the press. Showing everyone how much of a victim he was. I don't know if I share Sir Alex's view that his work rate had dropped significantly. He still looked well up for it when he played. His last game he bent a beautiful free kick into the Everton net. I would not have wanted him to leave but the time was right for him to leave. I think his relationship with Sir Alex had really soured and I'm not sure how long that situation could have continued. I think Beckham was one of those who had wanted Fergie to retire in 2002, and was probably quite annoyed when he changed his mind and stayed on.

Did we want to sell them or did they want out? I think its a bit of both and that comes across from what Fergie says. If you remember Ruud's transfer we tried to sell him to various clubs but he insisted on Madrid, which is why we got stuffed on the fee. I'm open to thinking that Madrid had told Ruud to wait for them, but by the same token had Fergie really wanted him around he wouldn't have sold. I think the time was right for him to go and Madrid had worked themselves into a position where they were well placed to benefit. Beckham, similarly, had fallen out with Sir Alex. Sir Alex will say that's because, like Ruud, he knew Beckham wanted the Madrid life. I think there's truth in that, but I also don't think Sir Alex could stand the celebrity life. Again, Madrid had teed things up to capitalise on that.

Of the players we have sold to Madrid over the years I think the only one we were that keen to keep was Ronaldo. That was one where, clearly, had it been up to Sir Alex Ronaldo would've stayed. There was no personal falling out. Unlike Ruud and Becks who were dropped for big games e.g. league cup final 2006, Champions League knock out 2003, Ronaldo played all the big matches. Plus, Sir Alex seemed to genuinely love Ronaldo and I think Ronaldo genuinely loves him back. They've never had bad words to say about each other. That was one where Madrid began working on the player in 2006 and eventually got him in 2009. De Gea would fall into that category. He is another player we clearly don't want to sell but they have worked on for years to tempt.

 

[Theonas]

While football was moving on to the complete sort of striker such as Henry, Rooney and Shevcenko, the RVN type of strikers were still popular in those times. Inzaghi, Owen and Vieri were among the most lethal and sought for strikers in the world. If I remember well our issues back at the time was quality strength in depth and the DM role. SAF kept insisting on Roy Keane when it was evident that he couldn't play at that level any more while our strength in depth in CM was simply ridiculous. Miller, Fortune, Richardson, Smith, Ngalula...this were not United level midfielders. Things would change to the better with Carrick replacing Keane + Ronaldo, Fletcher and Rooney growing up however at that point the team was passing from what many people at redcafe used to call it 'a transition period'

Well I can't argue about the strength in depth argument. But just because those strikers were around at the time does not mean it was necessarily the way for us to move forward. Most of those strikers you mention did not play in teams that were as successful as we were aiming for anyway. The point is when you have Rooney and a 2007 Ronaldo in your team, you need someone to contribute more in the build up and Ruud was never that sort of player. With Ruud, the best way to play is to base the team around him and supply him with balls in the box and Fergie rightfully wanted to move to a more dynamic style that if it relied on one individual, that individual would be a good dribbler/dynamic player a.k.a Ronaldo 2007-2009.