I really don't know what you are trying to achieve here? I have clearly said, I would rather have 4 CBs, but if the option was given to me that I had to choose to sell either Smalling or Jones, to bring in a better defender, then yes I would, but I'd rather buy another defender, while keeping them. Look through our past, we have always had 4 CBs every year.
We don't need to rotate them often. Sometimes players have to accept they are playing for one of the best clubs in the world, and their chances may be limited. If they don't like that, then they have a choice to leave. Brown, O'Shea etc did it for many years. It is how a top squad operates.
I did not say they was not good enough, I said, and I will quote
'Again, I think they are good players, but good squad players, not particular important players.'
You don't even know the main of our conversation. My main point is a left back, a right back and a defensive midfield would be enough to strength our defense. It's simple right? Not really hard to understand. Evans, Smalling, Jones, Rio/Keane. That's 4 CBs right? And you wanted more.
You never say you wanted to sell one of them in the first place of our conversation. The point is you need to remember my first question was what are you going to do now if we sign Mangala? Rotating them? Because I don't think Jones and Smalling want just sit on the bench. That has been my first question ever.
Your answer is you don't like to rotate them.
So I made my 2nd question "since Jones and Smalling don't want sit on the bench, then will you sell one of them or play them out of position (Jones as a DM then forget to sign DM)". And then your answer for my 2nd question was you would sell one of them.
But then my 3rd question is. "Is that even realistic? I'm asking are we really going to sell one of Jones or Smalling? Realistically I don't think we will."
If we are going to sign Mangala with realistically which mean we won't sign defensive midfield and instead we will let Jones to do the job. Because realistically I don't wanna us to rotate our CB.
Oh man you are not playing, you are just watching okay. You don't understand what they feel. They are still young age and can improve with experience. How to get experience? By playing!!! They need to play!! Rather than limiting the number times of their playing game I prefer to limit our CB so we don't need to rotate them and we won't have the same problem as our strikers for crying for games.
You are comparing our former centre backs who can play as a full back really with our current centre back who can't even play as a full back with awful crosses. After we sold Heinze. Brown and Garry Neville played as a right back while O'Shea and Evra were the one played as a left back. The one who play a centre back was only Rio, Vidic and Pique. Since Brown spent his time as a right back in that season most of the time we used 3 CB which make Rio and Vidic got their chances to play together so many times and build a really good connection during the game.
I'm getting tired with your excuse of good squad player or not good enough. How can you judge players like Jones and Smalling when they don't even get their chance enough. Give them chance will ya??!! Let them have enough game to play as a centre back then judge them!! It's not like we need the best centre back just to win a league or get to 4th. We are not going to be in Champion League anyway, we won't meet those huge teams like Barca or Madrid next season. I'm talking a realistically here.
This suggests in my posts, that I'd keep them, and they could be used as reliable players who can step in when needed. We get plenty of injuries at CB so having 4 defenders is a must.
Plenty of injuries? Look Jones played right back since Bayern game even last night, Smalling is available, Evans just got back. Rio and Vidic played almost our recently games. Do you still think we get plenty injuries. Well if we count Jones and Smalling as a right back then yes we get plenty of injuries. Most likely our right back get plenty of injuries which make the manager to push Smalling and Jones to play as a right back. I thought Evans, Smalling, Jones, Rio/Keane are total 4 CBs? I don't mind if we add more. But I don't like to rotate them. And I don't like to waste their talent. And also I don't like to talk unrealistically when clearly our manager and players have their limit of time during summer transfer window due of World Cup competition.
I am also getting a bit sick of you keep mentioning the Gerrard factor here. I probably should have used Lucas as the example.
First of all. I don't ever expect Liverpool to use Gerrard or Real to use Khedira as CBs.
I was using them as examples that, why do other teams not sell a backup CB, and can call upon midfielders to play CB if needed. Simply, because teams do what they should, and that is have 4 defenders in their squad.
Khedira is a defensive midfielder by the way, and is very capable at defending, so I don't know what you think his job is, but if he was called upon to play a match at CB, He'd play it well. If you think he plays as a more advanced midfielder, then I don't know what Khedira you are watching
As for Mascherano, again, he is a CDM player, but Barca never use him their, because they have a system where everybody needs to pass.
If he came back to the Prem, he would never play as a CB. In the world cup, he will never play as a CB....Why? Because he is not a natural defender
Sorry mate, but aren't you the one who talked about Gerrard first. It's not my fault because you are comparing different players and different role. I don't understand your point trying to compare Gerrard with Martinez or Mascherano. Yeah Lucas. So you wanna talk about Lucas now? The injury prone player!! He doesn't even have enough time to play as a defensive midfield due of injury prone with Liverpool so don't expect him to play in other position.
I should be the one who ask you what Khedira you are watching. Unless you never watch Xabi Alonso and him play together.
I never said a defensive midfield must play as a centre back!! You never read will ya?? Please just please read what I said. It'll so much easier for you to understand if you are willing to read.
I said a defensive midfield who can defend and pass can be used as a back up centre back which mean we can use them when all the centre backs are not available. It's not like in the world cup Argentina will get all their centre backs injured at the same time. It's not like Liverpool had all their centre backs injured at the same time. That's why Mascherano didn't play as a centre back. If none available due injury. I'm 100% sure he will go as a centre back.
My point is, yes, lets sign Carvalho, but sign him as a CDM, and not as a back up defender also.
Why do you think people get sick of seeing Mata out wide, same with Kagawa etc...Because they are not as effective there.
As for your point about Liverpool and Gerrard. You could say the same about Carrick. Why would United play him there? Out of desperation
The only thing I can see us to sign a new centre back is by converting Jones as a defensive midfield (which mean we won't sign Defensive mid). I can't see him and Smalling to leave because I'm sure the manager want to give them chance. They are young and deserve chances. I'm talking realistic here. Do you want a centre back and forget signing a defensive midfield or a defensive midfield but forget signing a centre back? Pick one of them because as I said before above (If you read, I suggest to read), realistically there is no way we will sell Jones or Smalling this summer. And there is no way we will have enough time to sign a lot of players due of world cup. Well if we can sign a lot of quality then I'll give my massive applause to Ed Woodward to be able making deal with many players in such a short period of time. United played Carrick as a CB once only this season when we have none available. And Carrick did really well.
I agree with you here. A CB isn't as high on the list as some positions, but it is still clearly a priority. Ferdinand should leave, and Keane should stay out on loan.
It's clear that a CB is a priority because most people in this topic are calling for one.
I am not saying break the bank to sign a defender. If one is available, then try to sign them, that is all. We could wait year after year for one to come available, sometimes we have to push to get one though
I also get we are not in the CL, so we don't need as big of a squad, but if we have a decent FA cup run, then all of a sudden we play a similar amount of games next season as this one. Also, you make it sound like after a bad season, your expectation on United is a lot lower. We should still be challenging for the league next season. I just think some peoples standards are slipping on what United should have etc
So you are changing your target now? I thought You wanted Mangala since City wanted him and we can't let City to sign him. He is about 30 million. Which mean really expensive for a centre back. 30 million for our owner for a centre back which hasn't be a real world class is like break the bank. Don't compare our owner like City, 30 million is nothing for them. Well unless if we can get a quality one with cheaper price like Vidic, I would say lucky.
That's why I said this already in my previous post if we want to sign CB, we could wait another season. It's not the main priority. We don't need to break the bank for CB this season unless if we don't sign defensive midfield then another CB is a must to improve the defense. Liverpool is probably an example we can take as a club from 7th to 1st or 2nd.. It's not like that they have world class centre back to get this far compare to last season.
1) You said you want to add more centre back like Mangala due of injury prone and also you don't trust Smalling and Jones. If we do that then we will end up to rotate them. I disagree with rotating paired of centre backs and none of them want just to sit on the bench. Fair enough if we want to sell one of them to sign one. But can you see that happen?
What I want is. 4 CBs. A pair that are normal starters, and then another 2 who can be called upon due injuries, rest periods etc. You know, like United have done for the last how many years.
What I don't want, is a midfielder put as CB if needed, to save on having 4 CBs
2) I said if we worry about injury prone with 3 current CB and 1 youth we can also use our new signing defensive midfield to be a back up of centre back as well. And you are trying to compare Khedira and Gerrard with Javi Martinez and Mascherano. While clearly I disagree if you compare them because Khedira isn't even a defensive midfield and Gerrard can't even defend like Javi and Macherano. You are trying so hard to compare their role it's like sky and earth. 2 different things.
The two defenders you talk about, Mascherano and Martinez. Please tell me who manage/d them when they where played as CB. Pep... A manager who likes to play players who can pass the ball. Why did Bayern not play Martinez as a CB last season, because this is a Pep thing, not something managers normally do
Also, Khedira is can defend very well, and plays as a CDM, so please stop saying he isn't
3) You said Mangala will be more concern in City. It's like you are trying to say that Mangala is concerned with Demi because Demi and Kompany are City current paired defender this season. It's what you are trying to say that Mangala concerned that Demi can challenge his place rather than Smalling and Jones. Obviously I disagree because in my opinion Jones and Smalling are better than Demi. And obviously Mangala will concern on Jones and Smalling rather than Demi. Not to mention Demi is too old already.
If you read my post, what you will notice is as I kept saying. If Mangala comes here, he would be the main defender. The go to guy every match. Around him, the others would play with him, while hopefully havign a consistent pairing most of the time
At City, Kompany is that go to guy. Of course Mangala would be the next choice to play along side him, but if Pelli wanted to put a defender in for a match, it would most likely be Mangala to be dropped.
I would say at both clubs, he would play most games.
1) I don't I need to response this since everything already been writen above.
2) Martinez ever played as a centre back with Atl Bilbao. So it's not only Pep played him as a centre back. As for Khedira I mentioned him above already.
3) We were talking about which one Mangala will feel more concern and which one he will prefer. We never talk about who's going to be the main one. Mangala would probably be the main one in both of team if he's that good. But the problem is we have Smalling and Jones which are more quality than Demi. Obviously more players wanted a first team choice CB in our team. I don't see Demi as their first choice if City have Smalling instead.