We will never win the league with Bruno Fernandes in the team...

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Only if that running is well placed though. Go back and watch last weekend, he's off pressing of his own volition clearly outside of the team structure often, and gets played through like butter. Similarly when he makes freelancing sprints while we are in possession instead of keeping shape to pull defenders out of position. I said it in previous years but we basically play a 424 in most games with him, and that's always going to get us run over in midfield while relying on him to have a brilliant game in the final third to keep us in the game.

I don't really but into fans who make working hard to get the ball back complicated.

Or believe they know which player is running correctly and which isn't.

But if I had to say who isn't helping us win the ball back I'd go for the lazy non running players first. Not the guy putting a massive shift in.

It's a pointless difference when outside of one season for United he has been a below average presser and his defensive positioning is terrible. He runs, no one can take that away from him but he doesn't do it in a useful or efficient way, at least not for a midfielder. And he is also a below average tackler for a midfielder.

He's a 10, plays as a 10. In that position his running and tackling is more than what you normally get.

Bruno's work ethic is a pointless difference?

What is it that Ibra lacked that made him difficult to fit in an effective, high level team?
 
His passing can be atrocious at times, but then he will play some fantastic ball that leads to a goal.
I'm still not certain what i think of Bruno, even after all this time.
 
I'm confident that in time ETH will either get what he wants from him or replace him. He's talented enough to warrant patience and it's not like we have a lot of options, but yeah he'll either improve or get phased out of the team.
 
Bruno's job is to take risks with his passing especially in the final third....his build up play has to be better in keeping the ball and clearly his defensive positioning needs to be better. he's a midfielder and has to help his two connectors so they aren't playing 2v3
 
I'll do you one better : we'll never win a trophy be it a league or even league cup with Bruno as our main playmaker.
 
It should have because these games show the good and bad sides in equal measures, I think that I made a similar point about McTominay and his very low possession contribution during his good spells. Against both Liverpool and Arsenal Bruno showed how his positive contribution work, while our midfield was totally dominated and we couldn't take back control of the middle third, Bruno found success in being extremely direct and exploiting the space left by Liverpool and Arsenal who were both able to easily break through our midfield but struggled to displace our back four and create easy chances, they brought more players forwards and left a lot of space for mainly Rashford and Bruno. And in both games the better performers were probably Dalot, Varane and Martinez.

Now the issue when our back four doesn't sustain the relentless attacking waves from the opponent is that we end up with what happened against City or Brighton where our midfield was creating turnovers after turnovers while being useless defensively. And obviously the issue is bigger than Bruno, he is just one of the pieces that need to be fixed whether it is through coaching or substitution. But we can't just look away and act as if we couldn't see the issue.

I disagree on the main point that Bruno is wasteful, to the point where he becomes a hindrance to a "progressive" football. Just in last game where City dominated us like men against kids, their talisman KdB had passing rate of 84% (just a 5% more than the maligned Bruno). Would you say KdB is so wasteful, and he's a hindrance to City's "progressive" football? Would he not be more wasteful if he played in Bruno's position with us?

You see the click-bait title of this thread, and the timing it was presented? Tell me if this is not using our most heavy defeat to make a point. A point by single out a player where there are far worse players than him in that game.

This is similar to those article by "experts" who singled out Ronaldo as the main reason (and some even mentioned as the single reason) we couldn't play a progressive and pressing football last season. Now these "expert" just keep their mouth shut when seeing Haaland strive in City's tiki-taka, even though he's never a player that heavily involved in any building. But people usually just lap it up on this kind of article, because it gives an easy solution that only need simple thinking.

Anyway. None of those wall of texts would change anyone's mind. Not for me, probably not for you and others also. I just replied to you because you put much thought on your writing, and i kinda agree with some of it. This is my 2nd post on this thread, and probably the last. I just want to put my thought out there.
 
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If we're able to construct a top team to compete for all prizes, I don't think he'll be a starter. But he's fine as a transition player. I wish we hadn't extended his contact though, one person in the squad who was on reasonable wages.
 
It's a pointless difference when outside of one season for United he has been a below average presser and his defensive positioning is terrible. He runs, no one can take that away from him but he doesn't do it in a useful or efficient way, at least not for a midfielder. And he is also a below average tackler for a midfielder.
I'm not convinced he is a midfielder really to be honest. I think if you look at him as something closer to cantona or zola hes easier to appreciate. Easier to be annoyed when you realise we're playing a 424 a lot of the time too i guess.
I think City are one of the few teams I can think of using a number 10 and Grealish and Foden were tucked in to make a 442 when defending. Maybe our wingers should be playing deeper and doing more. Maybe they should be wingers instead of wing forwards, it might suit Sancho more as a bonus.
 
Reactionary thread is reactionary.

An away loss at City, the best team in the world right now, where there were at least 3 players worse than him, screams a personal agenda.
 
Reactionary thread is reactionary.

An away loss at City, the best team in the world right now, where there were at least 3 players worse than him, screams a personal agenda.

Personally I don't think it's reactionary it's more of a case that bar scousers in FA Cup couple of seasons back he goes missing in big games.
 
Personally I don't think it's reactionary it's more of a case that bar scousers in FA Cup couple of seasons back he goes missing in big games.

Do we have anyone who is good enough who doesn't go missing in big games?
 
Yeah we are lacking big game players

We need consistent players first. Right now we are playing with Rashford, Sancho, and the ghost of Martial as 2 of our front 3.

A lot of posters have delusions of grandeur about this team.
 
I have 10x more trust in Bruno than Sancho, given Bruno has done something while Sancho hasn't show any jack shit that he has the potential to be successful in here. I also have more trust in Bruno than Rashford. The poster should have create the thread about Sancho first if Sancho not enough then create Rashford thread before Bruno.
 
Correction: We will never win the league with Pep still at City.
 
The best bit about Bruno is he doesn’t have a creative bone in his body. Which is funny as he’s a number 10.
 
We will never win with Bruno in the team because we don't have any solid strikers... can't win anything when you are against teams like City with better players in almost every position and a better coach.
 
Reactionary thread is reactionary.

An away loss at City, the best team in the world right now, where there were at least 3 players worse than him, screams a personal agenda.

Reactionary ? Bruno has been shit for almost 2 years now. He's effectively hindering us at the moment.
 
He's clearly been instructed to cover, especially when he plays with Ronaldo. The players around him not pressing well is a bad thing on their part. Every manager we've had since Ole clearly wants to press.
I'm also of the opinion that a player like him, who works hard and is talented, should be accommodated. Most good attacking players I know are wasteful in possession. Don't be mistake, KDB is too. The difference is that City are able to pressure the opposition to regain possession those key passes don't come off. If he played for United, I'm not so sure that people won't be saying the same thing.

We suffered so many years playing with passive attackers. Mata was not great for us imo due to this. What's the point of recycling possession in attacking areas without trying to create chances. In our team, he's consistently been the only one trying to do this. Maybe he's gotten used to carrying the baggage on his own, but so far, it's not like any of our other attackers have supported him. Sancho has been so passive since he came in, Rashford has barely any creativity, Pogba hardly played during the period Bruno has been here...those are the only other sources of creativity he's had to work with.

I also think people don't really understand ETH's set up. Bruno may get into different spaces, but ETH isn't necessarily a possession recycling coach like Pep despite the high possession stats. He's had the likes of Ziyech succeeding his team, and whilst attacking, despite like to break teams down in player clusters, he is very open to directness.
Bolded 1: We can now estimate which scenario is more likely - that all players are instructed to press but noone bar Bruno is following those instructions or the scenario, that Bruno thinks something needs to be done, a signal has to be sent or whatever. I know, what is more likely to me. And with all due respect, I don't think, Ole would have been able to instruct the team a functional pressing system. Because if you don't do it in numbers with a plan, then you are hurting yourself way more than if you wouldn't do it in the first place.

Bolded 2: He was thriving in Oles System for a while. Since then, he isn't as flashy as back then (sure, many reasons). So at the end of the day, back then could have been a purple patch or a one season wonder. Brunos qualities are there for everyone to see: he has great vision and can have a perfect execution. Of course, such a player is useful to any team. But Bruno has some weaknesses, he isn't particularly strong, not a great dribbler and his defensive contribution is thin, even though he more often then not looks busy on the pitch. The worst thing though is his decision making which leads to him being a constant threat to your own possession. When we are talking about chance creation, everybody is fine with that. But he isn't solely an attacker ala Sneijder, he is needed in our builtup as well. And there is issues cause problems. There is no denying that.
Somebody suggested to take him out of the 10 spot and get him one of the front 3 positions - I'd be fine trying that.

Bolded 3 and 4: He is often the only creative outlet, that is unfortunately true. But that still doesn't mean, he has to go Hollywood every fecking time. Again, when we are defending deep, playing for counters that is totally fine. But as soon as we are trying to play a little more dominant, having more control of the ball, it gets detrimental fast. I could see him improving on that though - thats why I am ultimately against the notion of the thread title. That being said, if he wants to stay the player he is, then it might be difficult.
And surely ETH isn't some sort of LVG lite, nobody said that. But directness doesn't mean, go for the killer ball within 2 seconds after receiving the ball. Which is what Bruno seems to do instinctively (which worked great for a while under Ole). And that isn't even something to boils down to a prefered style or something, it is about feasibility - As soon as Opponents drop deeper, that approach gets infinitely more difficult. And the opponents will drop deeper when they realize, that is their best bet to get some points from us. We have lived through it around one year after Ole joined until the start of his last season. Top teams can't just rely on being good on the counter, there needs to be an evolution. I think, Bruno isn't in the top 5 of our issues (in general at least, his current form and ETHs insistence on playing him through it might catapult him in the top 3) for the forseeable future but the more we are trying to make use of possession as a tool, the more obvious some issues will get.
 
I don't really but into fans who make working hard to get the ball back complicated.

Or believe they know which player is running correctly and which isn't.

But if I had to say who isn't helping us win the ball back I'd go for the lazy non running players first. Not the guy putting a massive shift in.



He's a 10, plays as a 10. In that position his running and tackling is more than what you normally get.

Bruno's work ethic is a pointless difference?

What is it that Ibra lacked that made him difficult to fit in an effective, high level team?

It's not difficult to see if you just watch football. "Putting a shift in" as your only method of getting the ball back is how you get exposed like a sunday league team when there's no cohesion to it. ETH seems to prefer pressing from a mid block in bigger games, waiting for the ball to enter the midfield before shrinking the space, as opposed to full pressing from the front. So when Bruno is the only one running around like a headless chicken chasing the ball, he's not showing passion he's just ill disciplined (something that lines up with his characteristics as a player anyways).

And of course I agree Rashford is useless at any sort of contribution on the pitch that doesn't involve the same diagonal run in behind. I'd have shipped him off a while ago. But he's not the topic of this thread
 
It's not difficult to see if you just watch football. "Putting a shift in" as your only method of getting the ball back is how you get exposed like a sunday league team when there's no cohesion to it. ETH seems to prefer pressing from a mid block in bigger games, waiting for the ball to enter the midfield before shrinking the space, as opposed to full pressing from the front. So when Bruno is the only one running around like a headless chicken chasing the ball, he's not showing passion he's just ill disciplined (something that lines up with his characteristics as a player anyways).

And of course I agree Rashford is useless at any sort of contribution on the pitch that doesn't involve the same diagonal run in behind. I'd have shipped him off a while ago. But he's not the topic of this thread

If you've got a team full of players all working hard, all understanding team play, helping out your teammates, its really not complicated. Pressing, buzzword that its now become, will naturally happen. It used to be just common sense before fans turned it into a science.

We don't yet know what ETH wants. Saturday was a complete mess, ETH himself said he wants front foot defending but the players didn't follow orders.

As a fan its impossible to say right now who is closing down correctly and who isn't because we're all over the place in relation to the opposition and each other.

It's impossible to say right now you know Bruno isn't following his pressing orders, is purposely acting in an opposite fashion to his team mates. We're too much of a mess to in all areas to know that.
 
If we sold all the players we have currently who are not good enough to compete with City we'd be left with about 4/5 players. Hahaha.

Our fans need to stop thinking about the title. It's almost ridiculous at this point to think we are only a few signings away when the truth is we are a million miles away.

We aren't even an established top 4 club anymore.
 
I don't think Bruno was the reality check here, for me it's that our defence isn't nearly as good as we thought it was after the changes and few clean sheets. The fullbacks especially leave a lot to be desired. Dalot in particular was being targeted. In a solid team, you can afford to have a Bruno but our defence is vulnerable.
 
I think our biggest problem is that we still at times look far to spread out as a team in attack and defence. The gap between the defensive line and the forward line is far too big and the midfield just gets lost in a huge chasm of space.

It means when our midfielders get on the ball they have very few simple options on the ball and are instead forced to constantly take on higher risk balls, or hold on to it for too long hoping to get a better option.

When you look at city they move forwards and backwards as a team, even when the play direct balls from back to front the defenders get up the pitch very quickly to ensure the gaps between eachother aren't to big.

We have a habitual issue with the defensive line being slow to get up the pitch, and it's an issue that's borne from having a GK who isn't comfartable getting up the pitch behind his defensive line and being an effective sweeper. Infact he is possibly one of the worst sweepers currently playing at the top level.
 
If you've got a team full of players all working hard, all understanding team play, helping out your teammates, its really not complicated. Pressing, buzzword that its now become, will naturally happen. It used to be just common sense before fans turned it into a science.

We don't yet know what ETH wants. Saturday was a complete mess, ETH himself said he wants front foot defending but the players didn't follow orders.

As a fan its impossible to say right now who is closing down correctly and who isn't because we're all over the place in relation to the opposition and each other.

It's impossible to say right now you know Bruno isn't following his pressing orders, is purposely acting in an opposite fashion to his team mates. We're too much of a mess to in all areas to know that.
No. Just no... I guess, you have broader definition of pressing, I think, what you mean is being aggressive towards the ball carrier. But pressing is more than that, pressing means squeezing the space while taking out passing options to force opponents into mistakes. It has triggers, it has multiple purposes and it just doesn't happen out of nowhere. In no team, 5 to 6 players just coincidentally acting in sync towards the same objective.

And to make it clear, while you are obviously right saying that nobody knows if Bruno is following instructions, the other side of the coin is that you cannot know if he doesn't. I'd say him closing down opponents very far up the field while nobody is with him, is an indicator that he is doing something not organized.

I don't think Bruno was the reality check here, for me it's that our defence isn't nearly as good as we thought it was after the changes and few clean sheets. The fullbacks especially leave a lot to be desired. Dalot in particular was being targeted. In a solid team, you can afford to have a Bruno but our defence is vulnerable.
I am not his biggest fan but it has to be noted, that Dalot didn't have a lot of protection from his winger. Which at this stage will make even the best players struggle being 2vs1 more often than not. I don't know, if Antony just wasn't up to speed or if ETH deliberately wanted him to stay high and wide as an outlet ball - there are multiple possible explanations for it. Apart of it - fully agree, defense and midfield looked incapable of providing any solidity. Granted, I thought City played extremely well so I guess most teams would have struggled.
 
Houston, we got a problem and his name is Bruno Fernandes.

This is not a reaction to just the City game. This has been boiling ever since last season. The main issue with Bruno is that just that he's not that good.

His shooting has been awful ever since Ole left, the passing makes my eyes bleed but the worst is his footballing IQ. He has the worst decision making of the starting eleven and that's saying something considering he plays next to Marcus Rashford.

He's so predictable. Whenever he gets the ball, I already know what he will do.

Look for Rashford, if he see him running, he will pass him the ball and he's not running, he will give him the ball anyway and complain about Rashford not making the run.

Also his lack of discipline makes the whole shape of the team crumble because he cant stop following the ball like a little dog.

I'm so tired of watching him play.
 
Rashford for all of his faults has had many big game performances. Martial as well. Varane obviously. Eriksen.

It's not a coincidence that for a player of his perceived quality, Bruno has largely been bad against bigger opposition
Yeah we are ironically relative big game raisers. Part of what makes this team a massive disappointment.

Then they go and show up on the eve of a manager getting sacked.
 
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No. Just no... I guess, you have broader definition of pressing, I think, what you mean is being aggressive towards the ball carrier. But pressing is more than that, pressing means squeezing the space while taking out passing options to force opponents into mistakes. It has triggers, it has multiple purposes and it just doesn't happen out of nowhere. In no team, 5 to 6 players just coincidentally acting in sync towards the same objective.

And to make it clear, while you are obviously right saying that nobody knows if Bruno is following instructions, the other side of the coin is that you cannot know if he doesn't. I'd say him closing down opponents very far up the field while nobody is with him, is an indicator that he is doing something not organized.

That's true which is why I haven't said that. I'm simply questioning those who think they know what Bruno's been instructed to do, where he should be stood, where and when he should be closing down etc.

Bruno is playing in a team with a lot of lazy players who simply don't cover the yards. The biggest culprits being the players immediately around him. On top of that we can't pass the ball so our game is completely stretched and disjointed. No more so than Saturday. We were all over the place.

You say pressing is about triggers, squeezing space, cutting off passing options. I'd agree, let's go with that.

How does Bruno play his part in that coordinated effort if the players immediately around him are some of the laziest, most passive players in the league? What would you have him do in that scenario?

I know what I'd do. In the absence of a coordinated effort to win the ball back I'd jusr run my arse off and try to make tackles, make interceptions.

It's not ideal but the alternative is what? Stroll around like Sancho and Rashford?
 
I am not his biggest fan but it has to be noted, that Dalot didn't have a lot of protection from his winger. Which at this stage will make even the best players struggle being 2vs1 more often than not. I don't know, if Antony just wasn't up to speed or if ETH deliberately wanted him to stay high and wide as an outlet ball - there are multiple possible explanations for it. Apart of it - fully agree, defense and midfield looked incapable of providing any solidity. Granted, I thought City played extremely well so I guess most teams would have struggled.

Whilst this is true, there were a lot of instances where Dalot simply lost the one vs one battles against Jack Grealish. Fair enough if Grealish was doubling up on him but there were still many cases where it was just down to Grealish gliding past him easily. You'd be lying to yourself if you wouldn't feel more confident if we had someone like Reece James or Walker in our RB spot in these situations.
 
Whilst this is true, there were a lot of instances where Dalot simply lost the one vs one battles against Jack Grealish. Fair enough if Grealish was doubling up on him but there were still many cases where it was just down to Grealish gliding past him easily. You'd be lying to yourself if you wouldn't feel more confident if we had someone like Reece James or Walker in our RB spot in these situations.
I think even James and Walker will have a hard time with Grealish. Being on a yellow 30 seconds into the game wouldn't help. They're better players but I dont think improving on Dalot is straightforward.
 
That's true which is why I haven't said that. I'm simply questioning those who think they know what Bruno's been instructed to do, where he should be stood, where and when he should be closing down etc.

Bruno is playing in a team with a lot of lazy players who simply don't cover the yards. The biggest culprits being the players immediately around him. On top of that we can't pass the ball so our game is completely stretched and disjointed. No more so than Saturday. We were all over the place.

You say pressing is about triggers, squeezing space, cutting off passing options. I'd agree, let's go with that.

How does Bruno play his part in that coordinated effort if the players immediately around him are some of the laziest, most passive players in the league? What would you have him do in that scenario?

I know what I'd do. In the absence of a coordinated effort to win the ball back I'd jusr run my arse off and try to make tackles, make interceptions.

It's not ideal but the alternative is what? Stroll around like Sancho and Rashford?
Yeah, he might be in a team with a lot of lazy players. Or they aren't instructed to act towards the ball in the same way as Bruno is. We don't know, as I said, there have been numerous times, where it was only him trying to close down even the opponents goal keeper. Seeing that, in my eyes there are two possible explanations: everybody except for Bruno makes a mistake because they don't follow instructions OR Bruno is the one making the mistake doing something, that hasn't been instructed. For me, the 2nd explanation seems more plausible as it only needs one player to be faulty.

You are right, what we are seeing might be his way to deal with a lack of instruction. This is possible, but again, not very likely. I mean, if either all of them abandon ETHs instructions then they have to axed immediately or screamed down from the sidelines. And if they don't get any instructions then the blame should be on ETH.

I don't know... Don't get me wrong, I also like a player who is willing to go the extra yards. A player who at least seems to care. But Bruno gives me a feeling that this isn't genuine. That he is doing it because he knows this is something fans appreciate and what will make them ignore some of his dire performances. I know, this can be seen as pretty harsh. But some of his demeanour just doesn't sit well with me. Mostly his dropped shoulders when things go wrong, his moaning, some of his acting towards his team mates (even though I often agree with being angry at them).

But back on topic, I appreciate a high workrate but with Bruno, I think it often is more about being busy than about being productive. Don't think, he is built for anything else than the 10 role and we as a team need somebody who can contribute to the midfield. There were times, when he was playing a little deeper in midfield, I liked that but it hasn't been seen for a while.

Whilst this is true, there were a lot of instances where Dalot simply lost the one vs one battles against Jack Grealish. Fair enough if Grealish was doubling up on him but there were still many cases where it was just down to Grealish gliding past him easily. You'd be lying to yourself if you wouldn't feel more confident if we had someone like Reece James or Walker in our RB spot in these situations.
Oh yes I agree with you. As I said, I am critical of Dalot all the time and I agree, he didn't have a good match against City. In fact both him and Malacia weren't very good in most of the games. Good yes, better than AWB and Shaw last year? Easily. But some of the praise of this is year is OTT. I think, the user Adnan posted a clip in the ETH thread showing that it might have been Dalots lack of pushing on behind Antony which made the duo as ineffective as they were. I don't know who the culprit was, only wanted to point out, that Dalot looked worse than he looked for a while last match and while OTT praising him isn't right, criticism shouldn't be too harsh. It would be great to save money for a good RB if he could push on.
 
Whilst this is true, there were a lot of instances where Dalot simply lost the one vs one battles against Jack Grealish. Fair enough if Grealish was doubling up on him but there were still many cases where it was just down to Grealish gliding past him easily. You'd be lying to yourself if you wouldn't feel more confident if we had someone like Reece James or Walker in our RB spot in these situations.
If anything one vs one battle is Grealish strength, so letting him to be in one vs one situation against any full backs would be in favour of Grealish. In football, defending should be relying more in teamwork rather than individual. If the whole team can press as a team, Grealish wouldn't have enough space or even receive the ball in the first place to leave our full backs in one vs one situation. We pressed as a team vs Liverpool and even Diaz who is good one vs one couldn't beat Dalot.

Bruno and Dalot are not the problems here IMO, it will take time for the players to be able to play in a consistent basis to play the way how the manager wants. As for defensive problem, the more they focus the pressing aspect in training, the better the team as unity to press (more consistent) and we will be better defensively.
 
Rashford for all of his faults has had many big game performances. Martial as well. Varane obviously. Eriksen.

It's not a coincidence that for a player of his perceived quality, Bruno has largely been bad against bigger opposition
The team affects Bruno. When we have a defined structure as we did against arsenal liverpool he was very good wasn’t he? Eventually we will need a better midfielder for a possession game. In a season or two it’ll be possible to sell Bruno for a healthy fee and buy ideal replacement when available. I’m sure Ten Hag already has this in mind.
 
My thinking is that he could be molded into a better player. He has the right mentality/attitude, he works hard for the team....The problem with Bruno is just that he can't do the simple things. He always want to take the risks which works in only 1/10. I think ETH will make him to be more disciplined and play possession based. He will be our captain for any 4-5 years.
 
Ten Hag will have to remind him of all the stray passes he makes and drop him if he doesn't improve.
 
Oh yes, ofcourse our 10 is the reason we concede 6 goals in a game. Nothing to do with defending or passing from the rest of the team :lol::lol:
 
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