We will never win the league with Bruno Fernandes in the team...

[croadyman]

Watch this:

Still say he extends after World Cup, would say I could take them winning quadruple if he left but shouldn't lose top achievement to a cheat code fc

 

[caid]

I think he'll always be useful. Maybe not as a starter in midfield against City in a Ten Hag team looking to string a few passes together. But generally as a goalscorer and someone who can play a killer pass. Set pieces have generally been good from him too. I think hes basically a forward though.
I think we could make better use of him and things like pressing could be better directed but I'm not expecting that to happen particularly fast.
It kind of feels like this along with most other threads on here are being really dramatic about getting beaten by a pep team 7 years in the making and confused why we haven't caught up after 3 months. Were kind of patchwork and theres going to be some miserable scorelines this season.

 

[NoPace]

I think he could win it in a 3-4-2-1 as one of the 2 creators behind the striker, but I don't think we have the wingbacks and Ten Hag doesn't want to play that way.

It's also possible he could be good enough on the right in a 4, just by running hard, hitting crosses and scoring a decent number of goals, but nobody really plays 4-4-2 that well anymore. Juve could use him there.

Or Milan as their #10. So some team that plays with a wide man high on one side and someone with more responsibility on the other wing. Madrid play that way now but Bruno is only a super sub for them and I think Benzema would hate him. Atletico maybe, with a DePaul-Koke-Llorente midfield 3 behind Bruno, Morata and they'd probably need a wide forward with real pace. Bruno for Joao Felix is the only swap I could actually see happening.

 

[Sky1981]

I never have emphaty for player who doesn't even put an effort and do the basic right to the very minimum..

300k for misplaced passes and cheap giveaways is unacceptable

 

[kthanksbye]

This was always going to be a problem, when the entire world was playing with a #10, we didn't have any, then we signed Kagawa and Mata and didn't know how to play either.
Now everyone has moved on from the system with a #10 and we're stuck with one on heavy wages.
City doesn't count, they take care of the ball really well, their #10 are capable of doing what other teams CM do, they just do it a lot higher up the pitch and full backs occupy the central areas.

The sooner we move to a modern 433 the better. Casemiro Eriksen DeJong would be the ideal midfield, then we need defenders who're capable of carrying the ball into midfield, instead of the midfielders dropping deep to start plays. RW RCM and RB need to be playing close to each other to create triangles and give each other passing options, none of this is possible with a #10 and with defenders who are not good on the ball, it leaves the wingers too isolated.

Italy did it really well in the Euros, Spina overlapping, Insigne occupying the inside spaces and Verrati being there as another option on the left.

There really is no space for a #10 nowadays. The entire team suffers.

 

[Volumiza]

Much as i love Bruno for his commitment and character, I have got a bit tired of his profligacy on the ball and am finding him pretty frustrating to watch. I do think ETH has tried to slow his play down a bit and look for more simple passes sometimes but Bruno's instincts are hollywood passes. I actually think Eriksen would be a big improvement in Bruno's role with his clinical and intelligent passing. A midfield of Casemiro and Fred / McT (depending on the game) and Eriksen could be a better option for certain games. Certainly if we add a new CM to play alongside Casemiro, Eriksen would be class further forward and make much better use of Sancho and Antony.

 

[fallengt]

We are not even close to win another EPL soon so he's the least of our problem, for now.

 

[mk7]

Much as i love Bruno for his commitment and character, I have got a bit tired of his profligacy on the ball and am finding him pretty frustrating to watch. I do think ETH has tried to slow his play down a bit and look for more simple passes sometimes but Bruno's instincts are hollywood passes. I actually think Eriksen would be a big improvement in Bruno's role with his clinical and intelligent passing. A midfield of Casemiro and Fred / McT (depending on the game) and Eriksen could be a better option for certain games. Certainly if we add a new CM to play alongside Casemiro, Eriksen would be class further forward and make much better use of Sancho and Antony.

Sad thing is that you cannot shift him to the wing since he cannot dribble or even go past 1 defender with the ball at his feet ...

 

[NZT-One]

Bruno is a decisive player and his direct play and his belief in his abilities was the reason he came into the team and almost singlehandedly carried our attack for 2 seasons. In those seasons, because of his influence, we finished 3rd and 2nd.

What was his influence? Creating chances out of nothing, scoring goals and linking our attack to the rest of the team on his own, something we hadn't managed since 2013 prior to his arrival.

Now the team has signed good players since then, but the performance of the team hasn't improved. Due to his numbers dropping off and the team not performing well, Bruno is now part of the problem apparently. Now he doesn't have the hold up ability or insane first touch to react to poor possession.

The funny thing is, the problem with our team has been our ability to control the midfield, both in getting the ball back and in moving the ball to the attack. Bruno is a very good pressing player and at times has been the only player in our front 6 that actually harasses the opposition. He's also the only player prior to the arrival of Eriksen that has had the bravery to consistently try and connect our defence and midfield to the attack. Yet somehow he seems to be getting more blame. In fact, some have clamoured for him to be replaced by Eriksen, without actually realizing the workload he's had to endure covering spaces in attack and midfield due to how poorly players around him have pressed since the start of 21-22. In fact, I would make the case, that this, more than anything else, is the reason for a slight drop off in performance. He's expended so much energy in trying to do too many things and covering defensively, that it's affected his ability to attack. Rashford, Ronaldo and Sancho have consistently been lazy since last season. Where despite their shortcomings in 20/21, the likes of Cavani, Martial and Rashford were capable of supporting his pressing, this has not been the case over the last season.

What's concerning about the criticism is the premise. We seem to have only ever blamed our highest quality, high profile players during the last ten years. If we got Hazard and he played during this period with his 14/15 form, people here would be saying his overdribbling would be inconducive to a title winning team. We did the same thing with Pogba. Ibrahimovic in 2017 was blocking our attack from flourishing apparently. Di Maria was too selfish too. Yet not enough is said about the true reasons why we have struggled in those periods. Players like Mctominay, Fellani, Herrera, Daniel James, Andreas Pereira, Lingard etc have been consistent features in our front 6. We've also had the likes of Maguire, Smalling, Jones, AWB, Darmian and Telles in the back as well. Yet somehow, despite being our best performers, De Gea, Bruno, Pogba, Lukaku, Ibrahimovic and Di Maria have been the players to get peppered with criticism, discounting all the things they have to deal with. It would be like Tottenham blaming Kane for not winning the league. Eriksen is not better than Bruno. His lack of athleticism has not been nearly as exposed due to not having to cover the no.10 position and that's something a lot of fans are discounting.

Should we change our formation? Maybe. But Bruno should be the first name in our attack, given that he's been our best and most consistent player since the day he arrived. This guy, a midfielder, scored 28 goals and had almost 20 assists in the 20/21 season. This is the guy people want to scapegoat????

I think, the issue here is that players can't/ shouldn't/ must not only be evaluated using good or bad plus goals and assists. Players need to have a specific skillset, which needs to fit the gameplan of the manager. Bruno played very successfully, because Oles "system" was based on the things he strives in - no midfield play, fast vertical plan to speedy runners. As soon as opponents didn't allow us the room for it, the machine decelerated quickly.
Now we have a manager who values possession more. Because it is the easiest way to get some sort of control of a football game, something that is necessary for a top team to have. Control means, you control the ball and when you have a player who seems incapable of thinking in terms risk-reward then things get tricky.
Plus for all your talk about him being a good presser - think that through. If he is the only player closing down opponents while others sit back, he is doing nothing but creating space behind him. So he not only wastes energy but also creates issues for his team mates in defense.

Granted, he looks busy, he knows what things to say to make fans happy. And I agree, he isn't on top of the list of our issues. I actually hope, that ETH is able to teach him one or two things. But there is a reason, why other teams didn't go for him, he is a risky player. Some teams can balance that out, some can't.

 

[JPRouve]

I think, the issue here is that players can't/ shouldn't/ must not only be evaluated using good or bad plus goals and assists. Players need to have a specific skillset, which needs to fit the gameplan of the manager. Bruno played very successfully, because Oles "system" was based on the things he strives in - no midfield play, fast vertical plan to speedy runners. As soon as opponents didn't allow us the room for it, the machine decelerated quickly.
Now we have a manager who values possession more. Because it is the easiest way to get some sort of control of a football game, something that is necessary for a top team to have. Control means, you control the ball and when you have a player who seems incapable of thinking in terms risk-reward then things get tricky.
Plus for all your talk about him being a good presser - think that through. If he is the only player closing down opponents while others sit back, he is doing nothing but creating space behind him. So he not only wastes energy but also creates issues for his team mates in defense.

Granted, he looks busy, he knows what things to say to make fans happy. And I agree, he isn't on top of the list of our issues. I actually hope, that ETH is able to teach him one or two things. But there is a reason, why other teams didn't go for him, he is a risky player. Some teams can balance that out, some can't.

Regarding pressing, it's worth remembering that in the PL Bruno isn't that good of a presser, in terms of pressures he has been above average during only one season. People are a bit fooled with players that seem busy.

 

[El Jefe]

I don't even see how this is a debate. He's a very average player at the top level.

 

[Rozay]

Which other players have had a thread started about them saying we'll never win a league with them?

Apart from Pogba.

Just search ‘we will never win the league with’ and you will get your answer.

 

[Adnan]

I think we could possibly win the title with him in the team but we would have to raise our level in the first two phases of play to offset Bruno's weakness in possession. At the moment we aren't good enough in the first two phases of play with the goalkeeper and midfield still being a issue in possession. Bruno is best utilised in the third phase (final third) and isn't good enough in the first two phases of play where control is normally established by the more dominant teams. So Bruno should be contributing towards a significant amount of goals/assists due to his strength being in the attacking phase and him being below average in the first two phases of play. And those first two phases of play is where the bone of contention is with Bruno in the team.

The 4231 is the Dutch 433. The player playing at the tip of the triangle is the most advanced midfielder and is expected to contribute in all three phases of play. Bruno isn't capable of providing the craft and guile in the first two phases of play, which is then creating a even bigger problem against teams who are adept at recycling the ball at a high level and thus putting extra pressure on the midfielders who are occupying the areas within the first phase of play.

From what has been reported, it seems like Bruno and Tom Heaton are a very positive influence in the dressing- room. And that's a positive, and we need players like that in the squad because it makes life easier for a manager/head coach to unite a dressing room.

But for me the prognosis here is to sign a player in midfield similar in profile to Gundogan at City who has the potential ability be a deep-roaming play-maker. And a player with that ability will be a three phase player who is comfortable in a deeper role, comfortable in the middle third, aswell as carrying a goal threat in the attacking third whilst exhibiting a high level of touch and technique in all three phases of play. And then that would bring about a significant change where Bruno and Eriksen would come into direct competition for the AM position. And if Eriksen plays anywhere close to his potential ability, I would give him the edge over Bruno due to his ability to be a bigger threat in both the deeper and advanced phases of the build up.

A three phase player is very difficult to find but I do feel we should look to sign someone who fits that profile due to the huge impact a player of that calibre can have on our possession game. We have three youngsters in Hannibal, Iqbal and Mainoo who have the potential ability to develop into the three phase deep roaming midfielder i'm talking about. And if only one of the three youngsters makes it into the first 11, then that would be huge for us. There's also younger players at other clubs who we could take a chance on and players like Orkun Kokcu (Feyenoord) is one of those players who is still 21, but is comfortable in all three phases of play.

We need our own Mozart to dictate and orchestrate in all phases of play because we don't have that player in our team right now. Eriksen is the closest player we have but we can't just rely on him. For me this player is extremely important and would have a huge impact on improving us on the ball.

 

[Bebestation]

Easily good enough for our subs atleast.

 

[Smithy89]

I thought De Gea/Maguire/Shaw/Rashford/Sancho/McTominay/Fred were the ones to blame!

Well none of them are good enough to be fair.

 

[rollingstoned1]

If the source is true - and I remember reading this back then - then our scouts had similar reservations about him for the very same reasons. Not that this makes him a bad player mind you, just perhaps ill suited to the direction we want to go in.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...-Fernandes-signing-midfielder-took-risks.html

 

[Bebestation]

We have to build a team from the back - players like De Gea are more of a need to change than going straight after Bruno.

 

[MegadrivePerson]

If you look at the stats on which players give the ball away the most in the Premier League, Bruno, De Bruyne and Alexander-Arnold are right near the top.

The difference/problem between us, City and Liverpool is that our forwards don't win the ball back quick enough when we give it away. It's exactly why playing Ronaldo and Bruno in the same team doesn't work!

Bruno is a risk taker, you need a player like that in your team to win big games and big trophies. I'm confident that if you had put Bruno in the Liverpool team a few years ago or in the City team right now he would have a league winners medal.

 

[Isotope]

Would this thread be created after Liverpool's or Arsenal's game? We know what the answer would be.

 

[JPRouve]

Would this thread be created after Liverpool's or Arsenal's game? We know what the answer would be.

It should have because these games show the good and bad sides in equal measures, I think that I made a similar point about McTominay and his very low possession contribution during his good spells. Against both Liverpool and Arsenal Bruno showed how his positive contribution work, while our midfield was totally dominated and we couldn't take back control of the middle third, Bruno found success in being extremely direct and exploiting the space left by Liverpool and Arsenal who were both able to easily break through our midfield but struggled to displace our back four and create easy chances, they brought more players forwards and left a lot of space for mainly Rashford and Bruno. And in both games the better performers were probably Dalot, Varane and Martinez.

Now the issue when our back four doesn't sustain the relentless attacking waves from the opponent is that we end up with what happened against City or Brighton where our midfield was creating turnovers after turnovers while being useless defensively. And obviously the issue is bigger than Bruno, he is just one of the pieces that need to be fixed whether it is through coaching or substitution. But we can't just look away and act as if we couldn't see the issue.

 

[Greck]

Would this thread be created after Liverpool's or Arsenal's game? We know what the answer would be.

The result and fighting spirit from a team in survival mode was what made it special, the workrate was worthy of commendation but the actual overall performance was nothing special. This one isnt restricted to only Bruno

 

[tjb]

I think, the issue here is that players can't/ shouldn't/ must not only be evaluated using good or bad plus goals and assists. Players need to have a specific skillset, which needs to fit the gameplan of the manager. Bruno played very successfully, because Oles "system" was based on the things he strives in - no midfield play, fast vertical plan to speedy runners. As soon as opponents didn't allow us the room for it, the machine decelerated quickly.
Now we have a manager who values possession more. Because it is the easiest way to get some sort of control of a football game, something that is necessary for a top team to have. Control means, you control the ball and when you have a player who seems incapable of thinking in terms risk-reward then things get tricky.
Plus for all your talk about him being a good presser - think that through. If he is the only player closing down opponents while others sit back, he is doing nothing but creating space behind him. So he not only wastes energy but also creates issues for his team mates in defense.

Granted, he looks busy, he knows what things to say to make fans happy. And I agree, he isn't on top of the list of our issues. I actually hope, that ETH is able to teach him one or two things. But there is a reason, why other teams didn't go for him, he is a risky player. Some teams can balance that out, some can't.

He's clearly been instructed to cover, especially when he plays with Ronaldo. The players around him not pressing well is a bad thing on their part. Every manager we've had since Ole clearly wants to press.
I'm also of the opinion that a player like him, who works hard and is talented, should be accommodated. Most good attacking players I know are wasteful in possession. Don't be mistake, KDB is too. The difference is that City are able to pressure the opposition to regain possession those key passes don't come off. If he played for United, I'm not so sure that people won't be saying the same thing.

We suffered so many years playing with passive attackers. Mata was not great for us imo due to this. What's the point of recycling possession in attacking areas without trying to create chances. In our team, he's consistently been the only one trying to do this. Maybe he's gotten used to carrying the baggage on his own, but so far, it's not like any of our other attackers have supported him. Sancho has been so passive since he came in, Rashford has barely any creativity, Pogba hardly played during the period Bruno has been here...those are the only other sources of creativity he's had to work with.

I also think people don't really understand ETH's set up. Bruno may get into different spaces, but ETH isn't necessarily a possession recycling coach like Pep despite the high possession stats. He's had the likes of Ziyech succeeding his team, and whilst attacking, despite like to break teams down in player clusters, he is very open to directness.

 

[Lecland07]

2/3 of our current first-midfielders cannot be relied on to keep the ball and pass. McTominay and Fernandes are both major issues - we will never have proper control in games until we move them from the first team.

 

[UpWithRivers]

The question should be - Can we win trophies with a 4-2-3-1 formation? No other big team does it apart from Arsenal and Bayern. Arsenal and Bayern play with 2 defensive DM's. We want to move away from McFred because its too defensive. But the problem isnt the defensive aspect its the passing and other stuff.

1) McTominay is averaging about 30 passes per game, Fred around 50. Xhaka/Tomas or Kimmich / Sabitzer hit 60 ish. So if we come up against a midfield 3 then not only are we out numbered but our 2 is not getting on the ball enough.
2) Then you add the 10's in Muller/Odegard/Bruno. Odegard is the one 10 that keep the ball. 80's passing accuracy. Muller and Bruno are actually similar in the high 70's.They both roam about and they both have high assists/goals ratio.
3) The other stuff - Bayern have a sweeper keeper and Pavard. It means that Neuer can form a back 3 when needed and Pavard can tuck into the midfield. Or Pavard can form a back 3 and allow the LB to push on. Plus Bayern just have better players and play in a weaker league. Arsenal similarly are playing with Ben White and Zinchenko very defensive fullbacks.

So what is the conclusion? Well 4-2-3-1 can work....if you are Bayern. Or you can do an Arsenal. They wont win the league but they are doing better. What both these teams do is be more defensive and have better passers. Its not about individual players, well it is but its more to do with getting the balance right. If we want to make 4-2-3-1 work even though hardly any big teams have won anything with that formation we can, but we need two defensive minded DM's that can pass for a start. De Jong and Casemiro would be ideal. Then we need a proper 9 and a sweeper keeper and our LB/RB to be much better.

With the players we have I would say we need to move towards Casemiro and Fred with either Eriksen/Bruno in the 10 and Ronaldo up top. Not every game but it will have the best balance

 

[Marwood]

It should have because these games show the good and bad sides in equal measures, I think that I made a similar point about McTominay and his very low possession contribution during his good spells. Against both Liverpool and Arsenal Bruno showed how his positive contribution work, while our midfield was totally dominated and we couldn't take back control of the middle third, Bruno found success in being extremely direct and exploiting the space left by Liverpool and Arsenal who were both able to easily break through our midfield but struggled to displace our back four and create easy chances, they brought more players forwards and left a lot of space for mainly Rashford and Bruno. And in both games the better performers were probably Dalot, Varane and Martinez.

Now the issue when our back four doesn't sustain the relentless attacking waves from the opponent is that we end up with what happened against City or Brighton where our midfield was creating turnovers after turnovers while being useless defensively. And obviously the issue is bigger than Bruno, he is just one of the pieces that need to be fixed whether it is through coaching or substitution. But we can't just look away and act as if we couldn't see the issue.

This thread being created after the Liverpool and Arsenal games would have been a completely new level of negativity.

 

[Belisarius]

Bruno is a decisive player and his direct play and his belief in his abilities was the reason he came into the team and almost singlehandedly carried our attack for 2 seasons. In those seasons, because of his influence, we finished 3rd and 2nd.

What was his influence? Creating chances out of nothing, scoring goals and linking our attack to the rest of the team on his own, something we hadn't managed since 2013 prior to his arrival.

Now the team has signed good players since then, but the performance of the team hasn't improved. Due to his numbers dropping off and the team not performing well, Bruno is now part of the problem apparently. Now he doesn't have the hold up ability or insane first touch to react to poor possession.

The funny thing is, the problem with our team has been our ability to control the midfield, both in getting the ball back and in moving the ball to the attack. Bruno is a very good pressing player and at times has been the only player in our front 6 that actually harasses the opposition. He's also the only player prior to the arrival of Eriksen that has had the bravery to consistently try and connect our defence and midfield to the attack. Yet somehow he seems to be getting more blame. In fact, some have clamoured for him to be replaced by Eriksen, without actually realizing the workload he's had to endure covering spaces in attack and midfield due to how poorly players around him have pressed since the start of 21-22. In fact, I would make the case, that this, more than anything else, is the reason for a slight drop off in performance. He's expended so much energy in trying to do too many things and covering defensively, that it's affected his ability to attack. Rashford, Ronaldo and Sancho have consistently been lazy since last season. Where despite their shortcomings in 20/21, the likes of Cavani, Martial and Rashford were capable of supporting his pressing, this has not been the case over the last season.

What's concerning about the criticism is the premise. We seem to have only ever blamed our highest quality, high profile players during the last ten years. If we got Hazard and he played during this period with his 14/15 form, people here would be saying his overdribbling would be inconducive to a title winning team. We did the same thing with Pogba. Ibrahimovic in 2017 was blocking our attack from flourishing apparently. Di Maria was too selfish too. Yet not enough is said about the true reasons why we have struggled in those periods. Players like Mctominay, Fellani, Herrera, Daniel James, Andreas Pereira, Lingard etc have been consistent features in our front 6. We've also had the likes of Maguire, Smalling, Jones, AWB, Darmian and Telles in the back as well. Yet somehow, despite being our best performers, De Gea, Bruno, Pogba, Lukaku, Ibrahimovic and Di Maria have been the players to get peppered with criticism, discounting all the things they have to deal with. It would be like Tottenham blaming Kane for not winning the league. Eriksen is not better than Bruno. His lack of athleticism has not been nearly as exposed due to not having to cover the no.10 position and that's something a lot of fans are discounting.

Should we change our formation? Maybe. But Bruno should be the first name in our attack, given that he's been our best and most consistent player since the day he arrived. This guy, a midfielder, scored 28 goals and had almost 20 assists in the 20/21 season. This is the guy people want to scapegoat????

Great post. Bruno will be fine. Ten Hag will get United working a treat in the not too distant future. When he does, Bruno will be a key performer in the team. Maybe even a title winning team....

 

[gza the genius]

He's probably fine for most games but against the top teams playing a midfield three with him as one of the three won't work. It was clear against City and Arsenal even that we get overrun with him there. We really need to start integrating Casemiro in. I'd still love to see Casemiro - Fred (or Mctominay) - Eriksen start together.

 

[Judas]

As I've said many times, unless some of Bruno's bad habits are truly addressed and worked on, his profligate use of the ball just doesn't align with the football I expect Ten Hag will want us to play eventually. Maybe with tidier players around him, but right now it simply doesn't work.

 

[paraguayo]

If Bruno was a poker player he’d go all in on every round, All or Nothing series was named after him

 

[Leftback99]

Would this thread be created after Liverpool's or Arsenal's game? We know what the answer would be.

Threads/posts will always be reactionary to the final result in the last game, doesn't mean there weren't issues. The City result was coming despite talk on here of title challenges, best defence in the league etc.

 

[Rozay]

This thread being created after the Liverpool and Arsenal games would have been a completely new level of negativity.

I’m sure you have by now seen the answer to your question, but this is the latest in a sequence of threads of similar nature. It has nothing to do with the City result, and more a continuation of something I’ve been saying on here for years now.

 

[Rozay]

Threads/posts will always be reactionary to the final result in the last game, doesn't mean there weren't issues. The City result was coming despite talk on here of title challenges, best defence in the league etc.

My opinions on Bruno Fernandes in this thread are anything BUT reactionary. I’ve gone back and forth on the same topic for years.

 

[Leftback99]

My opinions on Bruno Fernandes in this thread are anything BUT reactionary. I’ve gone back and forth on the same topic for years.

I agree with it completely but I'm talking in general, you would have just got shot down or ignored posting after a win.

 

[JPRouve]

My opinions on Bruno Fernandes in this thread are anything BUT reactionary. I’ve gone back and forth on the same topic for years.

You made similar points in June in a thread about Eriksen vs Bruno and also during previous seasons. To some extent I suspect that people are largely pushing back because Bruno is a good to very good player and it doesn't feel right to target him when we have been generally subpar and lacking in that level of talent.
Now, the reason I agree with you and think that people are being mistaken is that they look at the individual and ignore his impact or lack of impact on the collective. Personally I have the same issue with Bruno that I had with Pogba or had with Ibrahimovic. Individually they are good to great but how do you use them effectively at the highest level in functional teams?

 

[Marwood]

You made similar points in June in a thread about Eriksen vs Bruno and also during previous seasons. To some extent I suspect that people are largely pushing back because Bruno is a good to very good player and it doesn't feel right to target him when we have been generally subpar and lacking in that level of talent.
Now, the reason I agree with you and think that people are being mistaken is that they look at the individual and ignore his impact or lack of impact on the collective. Personally I have the same issue with Bruno that I had with Pogba or had with Ibrahimovic. Individually they are good to great but how do you use them effectively at the highest level in functional teams?

The massive difference between the three is that Bruno runs his backside off.

Makes him a lot easier to be part of a functional team.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

We are not even close to win another EPL soon so he's the least of our problem, for now.

Actually, when one of your main midfielders constantly struggles in big games and gives up the ball with stupid passes it tends to be a big problem.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

The massive difference between the three is that Bruno runs his backside off.

Makes him a lot easier to be part of a functional team.

Only if that running is well placed though. Go back and watch last weekend, he's off pressing of his own volition clearly outside of the team structure often, and gets played through like butter. Similarly when he makes freelancing sprints while we are in possession instead of keeping shape to pull defenders out of position. I said it in previous years but we basically play a 424 in most games with him, and that's always going to get us run over in midfield while relying on him to have a brilliant game in the final third to keep us in the game.

 

[Rozay]

You made similar points in June in a thread about Eriksen vs Bruno and also during previous seasons. To some extent I suspect that people are largely pushing back because Bruno is a good to very good player and it doesn't feel right to target him when we have been generally subpar and lacking in that level of talent.
Now, the reason I agree with you and think that people are being mistaken is that they look at the individual and ignore his impact or lack of impact on the collective. Personally I have the same issue with Bruno that I had with Pogba or had with Ibrahimovic. Individually they are good to great but how do you use them effectively at the highest level in functional teams?

Indeed. And Bruno isn’t the first player that this conversation has been held about, nor is he probably even the best player, which is part of the reason why I don’t understand the unwillingness to even explore it for some (even if they ultimately disagree). It’s a conversation, and should be a reasoned one, from both sides. On this very team, Ronaldo scored 24 goals last season and the consensus was that he is somehow harming the collective develop. De Gea has been an outstanding goalkeeper, THE outstanding goalkeeper in England for the last decade. Yet most accept it about him.

As you said, it is about building the collective. So many teams sacrifice good players for the greater good of the unit. Coutinho was the talisman at Liverpool. Ozil sacrificed at Arsenal. For me, Bruno hinders a team both in possession/build up and in terms of shape. He doesn’t excel in the very heart of the play so he often avoids it. I don’t think a top team can afford it. It’s basically asking to have Keane alongside Vieira or Modric to make it work. It is not simply about defending and saying Bruno works hard. Midfielders need other midfielders to pass to. To lend the ball to and get it back from, without having to look 30 yards to find them. This is because they invariably have opponents trying to take it off them. We need him to be dropping in to create overload or simply match numbers in the middle, and then it’s not as simple as just being there either, we want him to be very good at it too, otherwise. David Silva, Nasri, KDB, Firmino - these players help their team control possession because they can join the rondo in the middle and ensure there is always a short pass on to get away from the press.

When that is all said and done, there are exceptions to everything. If we were talking about a 28 year old Messi who bucks the trend, then fair enough. If you want to accommodate a 22 year old Haaland in your team, then fine. I don’t think Bruno is close to that level of individual talent that the very best teams should just accommodate his brilliance. He’s a good player, but I wouldn’t expect Eriksen to go to a title winning team and be accommodated in the same way either. These are not that level of player.

The principles of the team need to be to keep the ball, on all occasions, not just against Nottingham Forest, but against Chelsea too, despite the pressure on you. I put to anyone who wants to actually listen and not dig for tangents or anything that Bruno is not a player that supports this, and it is therefore a problem for the team that he isn’t. If anyone disagrees with that say so and say why. If the counter argument is that they disagree and think that he is excellent at keeping the ball under pressure, then say that. Or if someone thinks that he isn’t, but it isn’t that important for a top team to be able to do so, they can say that too. Or if they think that it is crucial, and Bruno isn’t great at it, but he is so good that even the best teams should accommodate him because the positives outweigh, then they can say that. Anything else is arguing for the sake of it.

 

[JPRouve]

The massive difference between the three is that Bruno runs his backside off.

Makes him a lot easier to be part of a functional team.

It's a pointless difference when outside of one season for United he has been a below average presser and his defensive positioning is terrible. He runs, no one can take that away from him but he doesn't do it in a useful or efficient way, at least not for a midfielder. And he is also a below average tackler for a midfielder.

 

[Jeppers7]

He’s been so consistently bad for so long that it’s hard to see how he has a positive effect on the team. Then even in his good times two years back, id still agree with the op.