We have definitely lost our soul in a way

I always find it a bit odd in these discussions when people refer to the sugar daddies, but then fail to acknowledge that they are the ones throwing the most money at youth development. I think it's harder to bring through players because the competition for the top prospects is so high now, everyone sees the economic advantages of developing your own players and also the loyalty and club identity that engenders.
 
kundalini said:
Giggs would. A young Scholes wouldn't. It took Scholes a long time to become a top player. His chances of making it at the current United would be about as good as Pereira's.
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Thats true, even in the 99 season he was splitting time in midfield with Nicky Butt alongside Roy Keane, while Butt & G.Neville were starting to be seen as first team regulars as early as 95.
 
cyberman said:
Hate this blanket term of giving youngsters a chance, like that makes up for lack of top level talent you need to play for an elite club like United.
Let's turn down Bastian ( easier to spell ) and play Pereira there. Ramos? We have McNair instead!
What's the worst that can happen? Fall behind to our multi billion pound neighbours? Lose sponsorship deals and make it time times harder to buy top level talent than it would be now?
At least we gave them a chance.
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Spot on. We have to get over the old youth construct and focus on getting back the league and winning the CL. If we can develop a few quality youth players with first team chances along the way then that's a fantastic bonus.
 
Raoul said:
Agreed, especially with the last bit. I'd love to see a fantastic player come through and show more quality than the top players we are buying from the outside, but unfortunately, the only one who had such a chance was Pogba, and he's gone.
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I couldn't agree more, especially about Pogba. I'm still hopeful about Januzaj but after last season, I am not as sure as I was. He can count himself bloody lucky though and hopefully will realise and step up again.

It's also a bit silly to think the club prefers to buy players rather than use youth players. It really is a case of them not being up to it. I'm sure the club would prefer to use a home grown player than pay out millions to buy one in. I don't think people fully appreciate the huge difference in class between players in the top clubs compared to the rest of the players in Europe's top leagues. Long gone are the days where United could compete with only a handful of truly world class players in the entire squad. Now every single one of them needs to be world class, or as near as damn it.
 
datura said:
I always find it a bit odd in these discussions when people refer to the sugar daddies, but then fail to acknowledge that they are the ones throwing the most money at youth development. I think it's harder to bring through players because the competition for the top prospects is so high now, everyone sees the economic advantages of developing your own players and also the loyalty and club identity that engenders.
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PSG, City, and Chelsea have bought their way to the top. Not much youth action going on there.
 
Raoul said:
I think LvG will focus on Perreira, Adnan, and Wilson as this year's youth projects in the first team. Hopefully they can get some minutes at the right time to keep their development moving.
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My maths suggests Pereira will struggle for playing time with so much competition. Januzaj may be ok if Depay is viewed as Di Maria's replacement. Wilson again very much reliant on being back-up for Rooney rather than 3rd choice striker. Of course injuries might change all that.
 
I don't believe for one second we have lost our soul.
We have to move with the times, if we don't we will get left behind.

I trust in LVG and I think woodie is doing a great job as well.
 
Raoul said:
Excepting Memphis and Shaw who have nothing to do with our youth system, what makes you think Januzaj and Wilson will get any more time than last year ? Januzaj hasn't shown any hint of having evolved from his handful of good performances two years ago and Wilson, who I rate, may not see much time with Rooney and now Hernandez ahead of him.
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Yes Memphis and Shaw are not from our youth system but they are young players and they need to develop like Ronaldo and Rooney needed. You can't say we don't give opportunity to young players if our left side will have a 20 and 21 year old players.

Januzaj and Wilson will get more opportunity for many reasons, more games, better balance in midfield, players understand LVG system, RVP and Falcao are gone,....
Problem, especially with Januzaj, last season was, that we didn't have midfield who could cover for mistakes in attack. We have this now so players who take more risk will get more opportunity.
 
datura said:
And Chelsea and City have thrown a lot of money at developing youth. Over the next few years we'll see if it's bearing fruit. Chelsea have the best youth teams in the country at the moment.
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We can revisit this point once Mourinho and Pellegrini's sides are populated with some of these amazing youth players. Alternatively, its likely that any quality players that do emerge will be sold off elsewhere because each of the two sides are crammed with expensive foreigners to win the league and CL.
 
People are saying we'd need to replace Di Maria because many here don't see Januzaj as a winger, not that they don't want to see him get game time. It's the same with Wilson, logically we can't take the risk on him being Rooney's only cover, but most are happy for him to be 3rd choice striker. I also think McNair and Pereira will get chances this season, that will be 4 academy players in the mix, not sure what more we can do.
 
Jerch said:
Yes Memphis and Shaw are not from our youth system but they are young players and they need to develop like Ronaldo and Rooney needed. You can't say we don't give opportunity to young players if our left side will have a 20 and 21 year old players.

Januzaj and Wilson will get more opportunity for many reasons, more games, better balance in midfield, players understand LVG system, RVP and Falcao are gone,....
Problem, especially with Januzaj, last season was, that we didn't have midfield who could cover for mistakes in attack. We have this now so players who take more risk will get more opportunity.
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Memphis and Shaw are established first team players for club and country. The former just played in a WC side that reached the semis and scored nearly 30 goals in Holland. Ronaldo and Rooney weren't youth players either. They were imports from elsewhere who went directly into the first team.
 
Raoul said:
We can revisit this point once Mourinho and Pellegrini's sides are populated with some of these amazing youth players. Alternatively, its likely that any quality players that do emerge will be sold off elsewhere because each of the two sides are crammed with expensive foreigners to win the league and CL.
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And he fails to get the point as always. You are one of the worst posters on here.
 
Look at the other clubs in Europe and how much own youngsters had the chance to get into the first team the last seasons.

Pedro and Busquets were the last ones at Barcelona. The whole 91+ generations are leaving the club or already have left it - highly praised youngsters that played all spanish youth teams.

At Bayern it is Alaba who was included really in 2011/12.

It is about the same everywhere. Sometimes one makes it - but that just ain't the normal way...
 
Hope we don't bring in more players. Really want to see the likes of Adnan, Pereira and McNair feature this season. Feel like bringing in another defender and attacker will really restrict that from happening.
 
Kazi said:
Hope we don't bring in more players. Really want to see the likes of Adnan, Pereira and McNair feature this season. Feel like bringing in another defender and attacker will really restrict that from happening.
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Even if they're better?
 
Times change.

The class of 92 was a quality crop but look at what they were up against for most of their formative years. Don't forget we spent big to suplemment that crop when required.

Jack Walker / Blackburn had some serious dosh and he got his title and that was a clue of things to come.

The 'class of 92' certainly gave us a solid spine to 'decorate' with top players as the challenges came in each year but once the oil money came in and the stakes were raised - we simply couldn't continue with that model.

We move with the times and whilst I love to see home grown players come through - it's so much more difficult these days to employ that model given our rivals.

Like it or not we're in a great financial state (partly due to that period) but it's now a different box of frogs.
 
datura said:
I disagree completely. We might as well ditch the academy completely according to some which is ludicrous. If we can get top talent through the academy then they will get a chance, there's more then enough games to give them match time, if they merit it.
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I'd doubt a young Ronaldo would fit into the philosophy, far too much of a risk taker! Fergie allowed Ronny to develop & gave him a lot of freedom. We may not see such treatment for a player for a long time...

United need to manage their young players a lot better, seems the club wants to hold onto them & stifle their development, over getting them experience on loans at decent clubs.
 
Kazi said:
Our current first team options are strong enough. I'd rather we give the luxury minutes to youngsters rather than players that'd become squad players due to more new signings.
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But that's only if you're sure we have enough. LVG wants us competing with the best in Europe from now on. That's v Barca who have the best 3 South American talents of their generation as a front 3. Versus a Madrid who had the best 3 European forwards when they won the CL and v Bayern who can boast the majority of the German side who cake walked the World Cup last year. Especially v the Spanish big two, we're not just competing with those clubs but against the best of entire continents. I don't think any youth acadamy could cope with that.
We are still far off them yet, competing with them should be the focus, not making sure McNair gets some game time.
We are in this mess because we played the likes of Evans / Cleverly / Welbeck and gave them too much leeway. At no other club would they have played half as much and with good reason.
Even Rafael / Nani and Anderson in the hope that youth and potential would come through.
 
Red_toad said:
I'd doubt a young Ronaldo would fit into the philosophy, far too much of a risk taker! Fergie allowed Ronny to develop & gave him a lot of freedom. We may not see such treatment for a player for a long time...

United need to manage their young players a lot better, seems the club wants to hold onto them & stifle their development, over getting them experience on loans at decent clubs.
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Ronaldo and Rooney were bought in, if anything the argument would be they wouldn't be bought because Rossi and Chris Eagles need some game time as not to lose our soul
 
cyberman said:
But that's only if you're sure we have enough. LVG wants us competing with the best in Europe from now on. That's v Barca who have the best 3 South American talents of their generation as a front 3. Versus a Madrid who had the best 3 European forwards when they won the CL and v Bayern who can boast the majority of the German side who cake walked the World Cup last year. Especially v the Spanish big two, we're not just competing with those clubs but against the best of entire continents. I don't think any youth acadamy could cope with that.
We are still far off them yet, competing with them should be the focus, not making sure McNair gets some game time.
We are in this mess because we played the likes of Evans / Cleverly / Welbeck and gave them too much leeway. At no other club would they have played half as much and with good reason.
Even Rafael / Nani and Anderson in the hope that youth and potential would come through.
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Our current squad needs to be given a proper chance before we look to buy buy and buy. There is some serious talent in our squad (including the younger players), but they're not even given time to express themselves. We can't just keep buying and hope it clicks all of sudden. Need to have more trust in our current lot and give them time to become a team, rather than bringing in more and more individuals.
 
RedStarUnited said:
Reading through these transfer tweets and I see very low support for our youngsters. 2 bad years has shown us for what we probably always were. No one wants to wait for players to develop anymore, If Di Maria is being sold then you would think Adnan or Depay even would be getting supported to replace him..Nope - The caf muppets want Reus.
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If the youngsters aren't good enough then, what's the point?

United cannot afford to fall behind in this day and age of football.
Youngsters like McNair, maybe Januzaj will come good and are already part of our first team. If they are good enough, they'll get their chance.

Defeats the purpose of your point when you mention Depay though
 
I don't think we have as a club, maybe as fans but it is Muppet season. No matter what or who we want it will always be up to the manager who he gets and as he say only player that will improve us.
Over the last 2 years we have lost a wealth of experienced senior players Rio, Vidic, Evra, Giggs, Fletcher, RVP etc. We are in a process of rebuilding the team and when compared to most PL teams we have a fairly young squad.
Carrick, Bastian and Rooney (Valdes and Lindegaard also but they wont be here for long) are our senior players now and I'd expect a senior CB to arrive by the end of the window. I think this will be Carrick's last season with us, he'll probs join the staff after hopefully, that will leave us with a highly experienced core + players starting to get into thier prime while blooding young players into the squad. The process seems to be well thought out.
 
datura said:
And he fails to get the point as always. You are one of the worst posters on here.
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You do realize that City and Chelsea are throwing money at their youth academies in order to catch up to United's level, right?

Try to criticize the post and not the poster as well.
 
All I see are mercenaries. I agree with the OP. We are just like City now. However, LVG in buying Basti may just want to imbue his winning attitude on the squad. I still have hope that he is looking out for younglings and the future. There is noting like wining the Champions league with Scholes, Giggs, Becks, Butt as the backbone.
This is not nostalgia. Look at Barca, the core of the team were developed. LVG had a lot to do with that. He set up Bayern analogously.
 
It was always going to change after Fergie left. We had to adjust or sink while stick to some percieved moral superiority. Look at the likes of Suarez or Terry for examples on how the modern fan really doesn't care that much about things beyond who wins what trophies and who scores how many goals. Football can't be immune to the global shift towards to instant gratification era.
 
Even Barcelona with their supposedly best youth development only have Messi, Busquets, Iniesta, Pedro, & Pique left... One is about to be sold, and Pique was partly developed by us. Not many new stars coming up for them either.

It's just how it is nowadays, we probably realized this too left and got left behind, and now have to spend big to catch up.
 
datura said:
And Chelsea and City have thrown a lot of money at developing youth. Over the next few years we'll see if it's bearing fruit. Chelsea have the best youth teams in the country at the moment.
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Chelsea may have one of the best youth teams around but how many of them have been/will be given a chance in their first team. Not every great youth player makes it at the top and to compare us to someone like Chelsea is funny because I cannot remember a single player from their youth team breaking through to the first team in the last 5 years.
 
It does feel different and has Chelsea/City ring to it. I don't feel the same connection to the players that I have felt since I started following this club; however, I think it was necessary after Fergie left, or we faced the fear of being left behind. Fergie gave ample chances to the likes of Cleverley, Evans, Welbeck etc, and also bought Zaha, Powell etc., but none of them showed enough quality consistently to form the core of the next great United team. We really didn't have many options but to go ahead and look elsewhere for quality players.

My hope is that this is a temporary necessity and doesn't become a permanent solution. VG is renowned to give youth a chance and improve players: I am guessing once the core of this squad is set, it would give him more opportunities to blood youngsters in the first team. It is far easier to introduce one or two in the first team if rest of them are up to the mark.

From what I have read from the regular youth followers like jb, Khoazany and others, there are plans to upgrade the academy/youth set-up. Both the managers since Fergie have expressed the desire to so. Hope VG is able to make the necessary changes before he leaves.

In the meantime, I wouldn't mind if we buy, even if we have to overspend, top British players from other clubs. I would always like to see United have a strong British core. Would love it if we can add Stones and Bale to our squad to add to our young British contingent of Smalling, Jones and Shaw.
 
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Januzaj and Wilson are very talented. Pereira is on the fringes. McNair has done okay. In terms of English players we still have Rooney, Carrick, Jones, Smalling, Young, Wilson and Shaw. I think we need to settle the team and challenge for the title before we calm down our spending a bit.
 
For all of its warts I loved Ferguson's last two title teams. I know why it happened but, it is amazing how quickly the team was broken up.
 
This looks the 2015 version of the "United losing their identity" thread from last year.
 
Raoul said:
Probably moreso due to our injury crisis and lack of quality first teamers than just a desire to blood new youth players. Now that we have reloaded with another round of new buys, it's unlikely McNair, Blackett, Adnan and Pereira will see much action (imo). Some don't like hearing this but its just the new reality of competition in the league and Europe.
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Yea but even so,some managers would rather change position (if possible) to senior player then give it a chance to youngster on his main position.
 
Many of our fans need to understand that we grew as a brand and a name much more than ever before. And with that the expectations and performance based contracts, revenues and such are higher than ever before.

What we currently need is a team to re-establish our firm grip on the EPL and in Europe before we can return to properly developing youngsters. As a club we simply can't afford another 1-2 mediocre seasons. I trully believe that once the club is on the winning track again we will further expand our youngster development, but for now it is not possible.
 
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