We are bottlers

Posted early by mistake so I'll repost again.

Mr.Ridiculous__ said:
Ah yes the Redcafe condescension. Love it.

Remind me again how we are in the Europa league in the first place after getting a commanding position in the group stages. Remind me again of points we dropped this season unnecessarily to end up 11 pts behind city. The Carabao cup exit. At what point do we acknowledge that at key moments we are lacking.
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Case in point. Cup exit. It MUST be a mentality issue!!!!! It's such a half-baked point that arises every single time a team loses a key game. Those people remain completely oblivious to the notion that we had to win several keys games to get in that position in the first place. And if we had lost those keys games, then those same posts about lacking mentality would've already been written.

We have to go all the way back to 3 days ago to see a team playing poorly and going out on away goals in Milan, to then rally and win the game and qualify. No mental fortitude there though. Ironically, we lost today to a side that just limped out of that same competition to Slavia Prague. But no, they aren't mentally weak because they won today. Much like City are imperious, unless they lose in the CL, and that will be because they have a mentality issue when it comes to the CL, the same mentality issue they apparently had when they were dragging their heels at the beginning of the season. Which of course is now the criticism levelled at Liverpool, who had the mental fortitude of the 300 up until they, well didn't. It's the lazy, unimaginative missing piece. Of course, today's loss couldn't possibly have anything to do with playing half fit, disjointed team we had out today.
 
Knock a couple of good teams out early to get our hopes up for a throphy, then put in a lethargic performance when it really matters. Rinse and repeat.
 
Zen86 said:
Well, I watch the players during the game. I don’t watch the coaches during training sessions and I’ve a sneaking suspicion you don’t either.
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So you don't think the coaches have any impact on the actual game? The very thing they're planning for all week. May as well get rid of coaches if it's literally just down to the way the players perform on the day.
 
Mr.Ridiculous__ said:
It's not a personnel issue. The mentality and the ability to take pressure of this club and its players is absolutely garbage. It's why we don't capitalize on moments to secure CL progress, we get dumped out of cups, we succumb to shit teams when we have a chance of title race. I am not sure where the blame lies.

Edit: Let me make it pristinely clear. We are a team of utter bottlers. It comes from the manager and the players aren't any improvement.
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We don't need two bottlers threads.
 
Leftback99 said:
No. One team has to win, it doesn't have to mean the other team 'bottled it' every time. These are mostly 50/50 games.
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Not being sarcastic, but you feel it's more a coincidence we can beat Leipzig, PSG, City and Chelsea but if it's a knockout game we can't? It goes our way when it isn't KO but goes their way when it is KO?
 
This feels more like a one game too many scenario. If we had just gone out to a mid-table team like Soton, Leeds or Villa then I'd be right there criticising about bottling it.

But we played the 3rd best team in England at their ground (who are only a point behind us), after we played the 2nd best team in Italy at their ground three days ago (of which I think we've only won there once ever before the match)

And the 3rd best team in England had the week off to prepare for us too.
 
Di Maria's angel said:
So you don't think the coaches have any impact on the actual game? The very thing they're planning for all week. May as well get rid of coaches if it's literally just down to the way the players perform on the day.
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Well of course they do, but they’re not the be all and end all, are they now. Players are perfectly capable of performing poorly all on their own, especially when facilitated by a team sheet that didn’t work on any level.
 
Bottlers or may this is our level and people are just overrating our squad.
 
Bubz27 said:
Not being sarcastic, but you feel it's more a coincidence we can beat Leipzig, PSG, City and Chelsea but if it's a knockout game we can't? It goes our way when it isn't KO but goes their way when it is KO?
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Didn't we knock Liverpool and West Ham out to get this far? Everton in the quarter final of the league Cup, Milan on Thursday night? Why just focus on the games we lost?

By the same token we couldn't beat Leicester in the league so why expect to win this?
 
Chairman Steve said:
This feels more like a one game too many scenario. If we had just gone out to a mid-table team like Soton, Leeds or Villa then I'd be right there criticising about bottling it.

But we played the 3rd best team in England at their ground (who are only a point behind us), after we played the 2nd best team in Italy at their ground three days ago (of which I think we've only won there once ever before the match)

And the 3rd best team in England had the week off to prepare for us too.
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I think you're right about this particular game, but also think that we are bottlers and lack leaders through the spine of the team (CB, ST, Defensive Mid).
 
Zen86 said:
Well of course they do, but they’re not the be all and end all, are they now. Players are perfectly capable of performing poorly all on their own, especially when facilitated by a team sheet that didn’t work on any level.
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Which is why there's a manager in charge. To make sure that their team doesn't fail. But this team fails.. A LOT.
 
AshRK said:
Bottlers or may this is our level and people are just overrating our squad.
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The line ups today were equal at best. People massively overrate our squad compared to teams like Leicester.
 
Bobcat said:
Yeah...and we went through..which shows bottle

Leipzig away was a bottle job. This was just a cup tie where we lost to a team that was better on the day
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Didn't Istanbul happen. How do you not see this mediocrity? Look at the chances we missed vs PSG at home.
 
ivaldo said:
Posted early by mistake so I'll repost again.


Case in point. Cup exit. It MUST be a mentality issue!!!!! It's such a half-baked point that arises every single time a team loses a key game. Those people remain completely oblivious to the notion that we had to win several keys games to get in that position in the first place. And if we had lost those keys games, then those same posts about lacking mentality would've already been written.

We have to go all the way back to 3 days ago to see a team playing poorly and going out on away goals in Milan, to then rally and win the game and qualify. No mental fortitude there though. Ironically, we lost today to a side that just limped out of that same competition to Slavia Prague. But no, they aren't mentally weak because they won today. Much like City are imperious, unless they lose in the CL, and that will be because they have a mentality issue when it comes to the CL, the same mentality issue they apparently had when they were dragging their heels at the beginning of the season. Which of course is now the criticism levelled at Liverpool, who had the mental fortitude of the 300 up until they, well didn't. It's the lazy, unimaginative missing piece. Of course, today's loss couldn't possibly have anything to do with playing half fit, disjointed team we had out today.
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I get that point, but I do think we've developed an unwelcome habit of putting in particularly poor performances at crunch times. The Chelsea semi last year ended an unbeaten run of 19 matches and though you could argue De Gea gave it away with two mistakes the performance was pathetic from start to finish.

Is tiredness a genuine factor? Yes. Do we play good teams who also want to win? Yes, but the way we seem to limp out of competitions is infuriating and has become a pattern at this stage.
 
ivaldo said:
Posted early by mistake so I'll repost again.


Case in point. Cup exit. It MUST be a mentality issue!!!!! It's such a half-baked point that arises every single time a team loses a key game. Those people remain completely oblivious to the notion that we had to win several keys games to get in that position in the first place. And if we had lost those keys games, then those same posts about lacking mentality would've already been written.

We have to go all the way back to 3 days ago to see a team playing poorly and going out on away goals in Milan, to then rally and win the game and qualify. No mental fortitude there though. Ironically, we lost today to a side that just limped out of that same competition to Slavia Prague. But no, they aren't mentally weak because they won today. Much like City are imperious, unless they lose in the CL, and that will be because they have a mentality issue when it comes to the CL, the same mentality issue they apparently had when they were dragging their heels at the beginning of the season. Which of course is now the criticism levelled at Liverpool, who had the mental fortitude of the 300 up until they, well didn't. It's the lazy, unimaginative missing piece. Of course, today's loss couldn't possibly have anything to do with playing half fit, disjointed team we had out today.
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It's not just about this game ffs man. Look at the sheer number of semi finals we get chucked out of.

Keep the denial strong, and it'll hurt us even more.
 
Di Maria's angel said:
Which is why there's a manager in charge. To make sure that their team doesn't fail. But this team fails.. A LOT.
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Well, no, the managers job in a nutshell is to get the best out of the squad. It’s the squad that kicks the ball around the pitch.

But anyway, you were saying it’s the coaches’ fault, not the managers’.
 
Mr.Ridiculous__ said:
Didn't Istanbul happen. How do you not see this mediocrity? Look at the chances we missed vs PSG at home.
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You see what you want to see.
We are bottlers but we knocked out Liverpool, West Ham, Everton, Sociedad and AC Milan out of cups this season. We are bottlers for losing to a very good Leicester side and a borderline unbeatable City side in the cup this year.

I mean I guess if that makes us bottlers, then sure. 99% of other clubs must be too every season. If that's how easy it is to be a bottling club then I'm fine with it - I never expected even under SAF think we will get to a final in every cup we're in every season. I think we can, but it's extremely unlikely for many reasons that we would in any given year.
 
Leftback99 said:
Didn't we knock Liverpool and West Ham out to get this far? Everton in the quarter final of the league Cup, Milan on Thursday night? Why just focus on the games we lost?

By the same token we couldn't beat Leicester in the league so why expect to win this?
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Why can't you just answer my question instead of talking about the 4th round of the FA Cup?

The original question was clearly about crunch time. Squeaky bum time of the season.

I'll ask again, do you feel it's just more coincidence that we lose to teams we've shown we can beat when it comes to games that have more up for grabs? Not just once or twice. City twice, Sevilla, Chelsea, Leipzig, PSG. I won't include today, for arguments sake.

I'll even answer your secomd paragraph. No it isn't by the same token because the question is and has always been about those games that have more riding on them. I can assume you agree a league game in the middle of the season doesn't have as much riding on it as a cup game?
 
12OunceEpilogue said:
I get that point, but I do think we've developed an unwelcome habit of putting in particularly poor performances at crunch times. The Chelsea semi last year ended an unbeaten run of 19 matches and though you could argue De Gea gave it away with two mistakes the performance was pathetic from start to finish.

Is tiredness a genuine factor? Yes. Do we play good teams who also want to win? Yes, but the way we seem to limp out of competitions is infuriating and has become a pattern at this stage.
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It's not inconsistent with our performances elsewhere though. Our entire season is sprinkled with poor performances.
 
Bubz27 said:
Why can't you just answer my question instead of talking about the 4th round of the FA Cup?

The original question was clearly about crunch time. Squeaky bum time of the season.

I'll ask again, do you feel it's just more coincidence that we lose to teams we've shown we can beat when it comes to games that have more up for grabs? Not just once or twice. City twice, Sevilla, Chelsea, Leipzig, PSG. I won't include today, for arguments sake.

I'll even answer your secomd paragraph. No it isn't by the same token because the question is and has always been about those games that have more riding on them. I can assume you agree a league game in the middle of the season doesn't have as much riding on it as a cup game?
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I talked about knockout ties, which answered your question.

And no, I don't think just because we beat teams in the league it has any bearing on a game in the cup. They are just good teams that we could easily lose to. As I said these games are 50/50 (or less when up against City/PSG) it doesn't prove anything to lose a few in a row. Sevilla we should have won comfortably given the chances.
 
We got beat by a team who were fresher and better than us on the day and who really aren't that far behind us in terms of overall quality. Not sure you can call this a bottle job.

The use of the squad over the season and the amount of times we seem to have been chasing games or just edging them by the odd goal is more of an issue.
 
Mr.Ridiculous__ said:
It's not just about this game ffs man. Look at the sheer number of semi finals we get chucked out of.

Keep the denial strong, and it'll hurt us even more.
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No it isn't just about this game ffs. We beat West Ham and Liverpool to get here. We beat Everton in the league cup. We beat Milan earlier in the week and Real Sociedad prior. If we had gone a stage further and got knocked out, it would be a mentality issue. If we had lost those games it would have been chalked down as a mentality issue. If we got knocked out even earlier, it's a mentality issue. If we got to the final and lost it would be a mentality issue. Unless we fecking win it it's a mentality issue, right?

Its the same shit posted every single time irrespective of when we go out or who we lose to. If we win the EC then is it no longer a mentality issue? It's half arsed and tedious, and falls down the instant you apply any degree of critical thinking.

You know why we lost today? Because we had shite like Matic and Telles playing. It's because VDB has barely played this year. It's because Pogba was unfit. It's because Martial is in terrible form. It's because Fred was tasked to do something he isn't capable of doing. It's because Bruno wasn't playing and Rashford is knackered. It's simply because our squad isn't currently good enough to hit the consistency over multiple cups we require. If we won today, beat Southampton then lost to City in the final we would have this same conversation. We've put in great performances when it mattered, and we've put in shite performances like today in a league game. Our form in the cup is no different to our form in the league. In fact, it's frightening how consistent our inconsistency over all competitions is.
 
Leftback99 said:
I talked about knockout ties, which answered your question.

And no, I don't think just because we beat teams in the league it has any bearing on a game in the cup. They are just good teams that we could easily lose to. As I said these games are 50/50 (or less when up against City/PSG) it doesn't prove anything to lose a few in a row. Sevilla we should have won comfortably given the chances.
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Well no, the original point wasn't just about knockout games. But apples and oranges really.

Anyway, no bother.
 
Irwin99 said:
We got beat by a team who were fresher and better than us on the day and who really aren't that far behind us in terms of overall quality. Not sure you can call this a bottle job.

The use of the squad over the season and the amount of times we seem to have been chasing games or just edging them by the odd goal is more of an issue.
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Totally. Good side that were fully rested and started their strongest team. We don’t have the squad to compete on all fronts. It would have been sensible to give up the domestic cups like Klopp did in Liverpool’s two big seasons.
 
Really only Shaw playing well, I didn't fancy us today.

It's a lot more than bottle, we've again spluttered into a cup game and got the team wrong trying to be clever. This is more about lacking in quality signings, muddled management and players needing a rest. it's a bad feedback loop. We're still quite far from being a danger in the CL or maintaining a strong force to take a top well scouted team like Leicester.
 
ivaldo said:
It's not inconsistent with our performances elsewhere though. Our entire season is sprinkled with poor performances.
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Fair enough. I was disappointed but unsurprised with the shambolic nature of this cup exit today, but I accept we're not averse to putting in terrible performances any time, any competition.
 
Mr.Ridiculous__ said:
Didn't Istanbul happen. How do you not see this mediocrity? Look at the chances we missed vs PSG at home.
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Are you wumming?

A whole season worth of football, of course you are going to have some shite results and performances here and there. Right now there are 4 teams left in the FA cup, does that mean that everyone else bottled it?

Leichester went out in the EL against Slavia Prague, a team whose record transfer is a mind boggling 4 million£, are they bottlers too? Are we double bottlers since we lost to a bunch of bottlers? Leichester lost their CL place to us last season after giving up a 12(?) point lead post lockdown, if they bottled it against the double bottlers, does that make them triple bottlers?
 
Bottling is both poorly used and over-used these days. It’s the ‘bloke in the pub’ argument.
 
NinjaFletch said:
And neither am I. We're out of the Champions League because of a game when our reserves shit the bed, we're going out of the FA Cup because we rested players.

Our first choice 11 with all players in form is good enough, with some holes, the second we have to rely on any of our supposed depth in anway we're awful.
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The lies which you guys peddle just never cease to amaze me.

The "reserves" played in the 3rd match of the group stage which we lost. We won vs the Turkish side at home 4-1 and needed a solitary point to qualify. Versus both PSG and RB Leipzig, we played our regular XI.

PSG match we lost due to Fred being a ticking time bomb, every armchair fan could see him getting sent off, but not Ole, he kept him on and he promptly got sent off later. We ultimately collapsed. Fast forward a fortnight later in Germany, Ole put out a bizarre 3-5-2 where we found ourselves 2-0 down in space of 20 mins and tie was pretty much dusted.

It's complete non-sense to blame the reserves for crashing out of CL when it was squarely down on Ole and his shambolic management across last two games.
 
Kush said:
The lies which you guys peddle just never cease to amaze me.

The "reserves" played in the 3rd match of the group stage which we lost. We won vs the Turkish side at home 4-1 and needed a solitary point to qualify. Versus both PSG and RB Leipzig, we played our regular XI.

PSG match we lost due to Fred being a ticking time bomb, every armchair fan could see him getting sent off, but not Ole, he kept him on and he promptly got sent off later. We ultimately collapsed. Fast forward a fortnight later in Germany, Ole put out a bizarre 3-5-2 where we found ourselves 2-0 down in space of 20 mins and tie was pretty much dusted.

It's complete non-sense to blame the reserves for crashing out of CL when it was squarely down on Ole and his shambolic management across last two games.
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I'm not absolving Ole of anything, but if you can't see it that we need a certain very small number of players in form and on the pitch in order to play well then I don't know how to help you.

That's not a defence of Ole's management btw, if anything it's probably an indictment of it, but I see atrocious levels of quality in this squad and I'm baffled that United fans who grew up watching much better United sides than this think that a lot of our options are close to being good enough.
 
NinjaFletch said:
I'm not absolving Ole of anything, but if you can't see it that we need a certain very small number of players in form and on the pitch in order to play well then I don't know how to help you.

That's not a defence of Ole's management btw, if anything it's probably an indictment of it, but I see atrocious levels of quality in this squad and I'm baffled that United fans who grew up watching much better United sides than this think that a lot of our options are close to being good enough.
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Of course me and most other United fans have seen much much superior squads compared to this, who is denying that? It's really not relevant here.

But, sorry if I don't buy, that we have only 4-5 quality players in our squad as a whole, and if they don't perform, we can't manage to beat the likes of Sheffield, West Brom and Palace.
 
Kush said:
Of course me and most other United fans have seen much much superior squads compared to this, who is denying that? It's really not relevant here.

But, sorry if I don't buy, that we have only 4-5 quality players in our squad as a whole, and if they don't perform, we can't manage to beat the likes of Sheffield, West Brom and Palace.
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I think you're doubling down on a position you don't believe because you're trying to categorise this as a defence of Ole. Forget the 4-5, you'd be hard pushed to find examples of us playing well without Bruno this season.

I simply do not believe you if you're telling me you looked at that team today and thought they'd play well.
 
We’re not bottlers just not good enough, players or the manager. This cycle will keep repeating until we get better players and a better manager.
 
We are the biggest bottling side in the history of the sport since Ole took over.
The mentality is just not good enough under him.
 
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