We are an awfully coached team

[OrcaFat]

When we win we've got the best coaching team in the country but if we draw or lose they are awful.

I think it’s more a case of some people think we have awful coaches win, lose or draw and come out in greater force when we don’t win.

The rest of us probably don’t even think Ole and the coaches are particularly special. I don’t. I just don’t think they are bad either. But I do think Ole is a good football manager, results over a long period support that. But most importantly he’s managing in a way that’s brought this club back to life for me.

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

It does. We have been very poor in our last few games. We didn't dilly dally on the ball. We got our tactics right today. Martial played well is the other reason.

It’s a completely different game IMO - against a team that is attacking you, like City yesterday, when you regain possession and are able to counter attack, you’re immediately attack against defence - say, 4 against 4, and then you’re down to individual pace and abilities of our attackers versus their defenders. Against, say, a Crystal Palace or a West Brom that doesn’t happen - they will let us have the ball and we face two banks of four sitting deep and saying “come on then, what have you got”. This requires a lot more tactical nous to break down.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

It’s a completely different game IMO - against a team that is attacking you, like City yesterday, when you regain possession and are able to counter attack, you’re immediately attack against defence - say, 4 against 4, and then you’re down to individual pace and abilities of our attackers versus their defenders. Against, say, a Crystal Palace or a West Brom that doesn’t happen - they will let us have the ball and we face two banks of four sitting deep and saying “come on then, what have you got”. This requires a lot more tactical nous to break down.

There's a lot more nuance and tactical nous to both approaches. Even in yesterday's game, the counter attacking isn't as easy as play an out ball and go 4 on 4. City would take tactical fouls and snuff them out like they did on a couple of occasions. A minor tweak was the out ball from Henderson targeting the left channel vacated by Cancelo, so there is open space to run into and get their defence into retreat, that kind of thing is not possible without good game planning and coaching. If counter attacking City was so easy, half the league would do it and their defence with Stones and Dias conceded what, 4 goals in their win streak?

 

[Varun1]

Anyone paid attention to the football we played from 10-13 mins into the game? Very short period but some good passing and movement. I thought the rest of the game would go like that!

 

[romufc]

Ole has his flaws, which are there to be seen in the smaller games where he cannot break teams down but when it comes to tactics in a big game, he seems to get it right.

There have been numerous occasions where he has outdone a top manager. No one expected us to press City and we did it, City were shocked, they thought they'll have the ball and we will sit back all game.

He done what no other manager has done in 21 games which is keeping Cancelo and Gundogan quiet. He has kept Mane and Salah quiet, he keeps doing it.

If only he could have the better players to break low blocks down.

 

[cyberman]

Ole has his flaws, which are there to be seen in the smaller games where he cannot break teams down but when it comes to tactics in a big game, he seems to get it right.

There have been numerous occasions where he has outdone a top manager. No one expected us to press City and we did it, City were shocked, they thought they'll have the ball and we will sit back all game.

He done what no other manager has done in 21 games which is keeping Cancelo and Gundogan quiet. He has kept Mane and Salah quiet, he keeps doing it.

If only he could have the better players to break low blocks down.

I dont agree with thia. We went an entire year (or sonething stupid) when we dropped 8 odd points against teams outside of the top 6.
We score alnost every game v lesser sides.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

MOTD2 made a big deal about how well drilled we were whenever City had the ball. And our defensive shape did look excellent. Yes, we’ve been dull as feck in some of our big games this season but our ability to stop good teams scoring against us is not to be sneered at. How many other teams can keep a clean sheet against a Pep Guardiola team over 180 minutes of league football?

 

[arnie_ni]

When we win we've got the best coaching team in the country but if we draw or lose they are awful.

If people praise them when we win you have to allow people to criticise them when we lose.

They are either responsible for good performances and therefore bad ones or they aren't

 

[romufc]

I dont agree with thia. We went an entire year (or sonething stupid) when we dropped 8 odd points against teams outside of the top 6.
We score alnost every game v lesser sides.

I get you, if we had the additional quality in the CDM or RW spot, I think we could have got more points. It is clear to see someone like Rashford needs a rest but we cannot afford to.

Say we had a player who was just as good, we could rest some players in order for our players not to be jaded like we looked against Palace.

 

[#07]

Ole has beaten Pep, one of the best technical brains in the history of football, more times than any other coach. Yet some want to convince me that he's got no tactics?

 

[Leftback99]

When we win we've got the best coaching team in the country but if we draw or lose they are awful.

Said no one.

When we lose threads like this are made. When we win the coaching hasn't changed.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Ole has his flaws, which are there to be seen in the smaller games where he cannot break teams down but when it comes to tactics in a big game, he seems to get it right.

There have been numerous occasions where he has outdone a top manager. No one expected us to press City and we did it, City were shocked, they thought they'll have the ball and we will sit back all game.

He done what no other manager has done in 21 games which is keeping Cancelo and Gundogan quiet. He has kept Mane and Salah quiet, he keeps doing it.

If only he could have the better players to break low blocks down.

He didn’t just keep cancelo quiet, he had to be subbed as he couldn’t deal with our left

 

[romufc]

He didn’t just keep cancelo quiet, he had to be subbed as he couldn’t deal with our left

Exactly, I am tired of people saying Ole has no tactics.

City with this new way of playing with Cancelo looked brilliant until yesterday, where we made sure they cannot use their strengths. It wasn't even the usual sit back and defend either, we looked like we can go toe to toe with City.

Imagine we add a top CDM and RW.

 

[Bilbo]

MOTD2 made a big deal about how well drilled we were whenever City had the ball. And our defensive shape did look excellent. Yes, we’ve been dull as feck in some of our big games this season but our ability to stop good teams scoring against us is not to be sneered at. How many other teams can keep a clean sheet against a Pep Guardiola team over 180 minutes of league football?

I don't think I can ever recall a United side that are so difficult to define. We make absolutely no sense most of the time. How any side can go from what we saw on Wednesday at Palace to what we saw yesterday is maddening, and its far from the first time that we've gone from one extreme to the other in such a short space of time.

We have a forward line that have looked frankly quite poor most of the season but we are practically top scorers in the league, and a defence that most people think of as our achilles heel that are actually top drawer more often than not but prone to individual mistakes or a mad 5 minutes that almost without fail always end up costing us goals, and yet they've only conceded 1 goal (a stupid penalty) in our last 7 league games against the top 6.

 

[united_99]

I can understand the approach to our 0-0s. We still tried to win those games but neither we nor the opposition wanted to risk too much as it gives the other top 4 contender all three points at our expense.
Yesterday we took more (calculated) risks and it also helped that City didn’t display the cautious approach they did in our previous league game. Same with Chelsea (both under Lampard and Tuchel) and Arsenal, when they were set up not to concede.

 

[GoldTrafford99]

Ole has beaten Pep, one of the best technical brains in the history of football, more times than any other coach. Yet some want to convince me that he's got no tactics?

Ole has beaten:

Guardiola
Mourinho
Klopp
Ancelotti
Tuchel
Naggelsmann
Pochettino
Bielsa

All of the best managers in the world...

Not bad for a PE teacher...

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I don't think I can ever recall a United side that are so difficult to define. We make absolutely no sense most of the time. How any side can go from what we saw on Wednesday at Palace to what we saw yesterday is maddening, and its far from the first time that we've gone from one extreme to the other in such a short space of time.

We have a forward line that have looked frankly quite poor most of the season but we are practically top scorers in the league, and a defence that most people think of as our achilles heel that are actually top drawer more often than not but prone to individual mistakes or a mad 5 minutes that almost without fail always end up costing us goals, and yet they've only conceded 1 goal (a stupid penalty) in our last 7 league games against the top 6.

Yeah, agreed. Our form is also weird as feck. If we go into a game against City in wretched form we win every time. Go into that game after a good run of results and we’re doomed. We literally make no sense as a football team.

 

[JJ12]

Beat Pep 3 times on his own manor.

We are terribly coached indeed.

 

[11101]

I don't think this result changes a thing. It's a fantastic result in isolation but City play high up the pitch and leave space to counter attack in to, we already know we are devastating at that. They played into our hands and we had the luck on the day, none of their chances came off and we made the most of ours. I'm more concerned about what we do when a team sits back, that's where we struggle.

 

[rotherham_red]

I don't think this result changes a thing. It's a fantastic result in isolation but City play high up the pitch and leave space to counter attack in to, we already know we are devastating at that. They played into our hands and we had the luck on the day, none of their chances came off and we made the most of ours. I'm more concerned about what we do when a team sits back, that's where we struggle.

I don't think it's a coincidence that this fallow period against the lesser lights of the league has predominantly come when Pogba has been out. Hopefully it won't be too long until he's back to give us that extra boost when we need it.

I'd like Rashford to be rested during the International break too, give him those two weeks off so that he can be refreshed for the run-in.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

The manner in which we started against City was light years faster than against Palace. For some reason, it just isn't obvious to some. The same people who are praising Ole for yesterdays performance, and rightly so (we set up brilliantly and attacked from the go), can't see that he was largely responsible for the dropped points against Palace, SHU and WBA.

This isn't a new issue. We saw this in his first 6 months when we dropped points to teams like Cardiff and Huddersfield. Whether its complacency or being arrogant, I'm not sure but our performances against the teams named above were inexcusable and it comes down to management.

 

[justsomebloke]

I don't think this result changes a thing. It's a fantastic result in isolation but City play high up the pitch and leave space to counter attack in to, we already know we are devastating at that. They played into our hands and we had the luck on the day, none of their chances came off and we made the most of ours. I'm more concerned about what we do when a team sits back, that's where we struggle.

Well, that's not really true either though, in any consistent way. We have won most of our games against teams that do, some of them by a big margin.

 

[Bilbo]

I don't think this result changes a thing. It's a fantastic result in isolation but City play high up the pitch and leave space to counter attack in to, we already know we are devastating at that. They played into our hands and we had the luck on the day, none of their chances came off and we made the most of ours. I'm more concerned about what we do when a team sits back, that's where we struggle.

Hard to think of a post that better encapsulates the general tone of this forum than the one above.

'Result doesn't change a thing'
'They had an off day, were unlucky. We had the rub of the green'
'Played right into our hands'
'Yeah we won, but what about that other game where we didn't win that time'

 

[tomaldinho1]

It's like being a team that can counter good is a terrible thing. Almost looked at like it's a negative and no football.


Worse stick to beat the manager with.


People assume it's a counter with all bodies behind the ball deep in box but today not so much the case. Pressing and winning ball back quick created a lot of the breaks.

People talk like it's just defending for dear life and getting a loose ball. Whole team was well drilled today and did all aspects well

I remember watching an interview with Pique when Enrique came in and they started smashing records. He said he felt they were a more complete team under Enrique because they weren’t ‘allowed’ to counter attack under Pep whereas they would forsake build up play if needed with the new setup.

Counter attacking is still probably the most effective way of scoring and United have never been bad at countering under Ole, it’s the other side of the game we want to see more of in games like our next one at WHUM (the approach we took yesterday was 100% correct). If we can see that for a few games I’ll start to believe we’re making progress.

 

[justsomebloke]

The manner in which we started against City was light years faster than against Palace. For some reason, it just isn't obvious to some. The same people who are praising Ole for yesterdays performance, and rightly so (we set up brilliantly and attacked from the go), can't see that he was largely responsible for the dropped points against Palace, SHU and WBA.

This isn't a new issue. We saw this in his first 6 months when we dropped points to teams like Cardiff and Huddersfield. Whether its complacency or being arrogant, I'm not sure but our performances against the teams named above were inexcusable and it comes down to management.

...how, exactly? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever to me. I'm not even able to imagine the chain of reasoning that leads you to that conclusion. Because surely you're not assuming that OGS instructed the team to go out against CP and take it easy and avoid all risk?

 

[11101]

Hard to think of a post that better encapsulates the general tone of this forum than the one above.

'Result doesn't change a thing'
'They had an off day, were unlucky. We had the rub of the green'
'Played right into our hands'
'Yeah we won, but what about that other game where we didn't win that time'

We had a good game against a team that we know is set up in a way that favours us. Not hard to see why some of us might not be getting carried away with the result.

 

[Bilbo]

We had a good game against a team that we know is set up in a way that favours us. Not hard to see why some of us might not be getting carried away with the result.

We went into a game against a team that had won 20-something on the bounce. Our city rivals no less, at their stadium. Off of the back of a terrible performance midweek, and with our top 4 chances starting to look in jeopardy. Nobody gave us a chance. We won, and won well.

Its pretty much everything that following sport is about to get carried away with the result! Otherwise what's the bloody point in all of this?

 

[Leftback99]

We went into a game against a team that had won 20-something on the bounce. Our city rivals no less, at their stadium. Off of the back of a terrible performance midweek, and with our top 4 chances starting to look in jeopardy. Nobody gave us a chance. We won, and won well.

Its pretty much everything that following sport is about to get carried away with the result! Otherwise what's the bloody point in all of this?

Until we play exactly like City (with players who aren't suited to it) some people will never be happy. It's almost a criticism on here that we have players that are good on the counter attack, people don't like it (or at least it seems that way).

 

[Di Maria's angel]

...how, exactly? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever to me. I'm not even able to imagine the chain of reasoning that leads you to that conclusion. Because surely you're not assuming that OGS instructed the team to go out against CP and take it easy and avoid all risk?

I've no idea what Ole says to the team before a match. But what was instructed on Wednesday was different from yesterday. Surely, you've the eyes to see that?

 

[Jeffthered]

Beat Pep 3 times on his own manor.

We are terribly coached indeed.

Ok. So explain this.. after nearly 120 matches in charge, please explain our playing 'style' ? Because, aside from 'Counter-attack and run v fast when opponents lose the ball.. I am not sure I know what it is. So please explain.

We have Rasford, Bruno, Greenwood, Cavani. Pogba took us through a few games. We have loads of defensive minded players. But no playing style, none.

You forget that City have battered us, at OldTrafford in recent seasons too, in a Cup semi-final no less. Where was our amazing coach then? Or the CL campaign? Or the Semi-Final against Arsenal last season. You know, the games that matter (because yesterday isn't going to change anything....). This is what annoys me, we are becoming a club satisfied by the odd result and finishing top four. And I am supposed to say that is the result of 'good' coaching?

We were top of the league a while ago..remember that? And how was our coaching then? How has our coaching been since?

 

[RUCK4444]

We had a good game against a team that we know is set up in a way that favours us. Not hard to see why some of us might not be getting carried away with the result.

I would still expect to see posts like this if we were to win the treble again if Ole was Manager.

“We’ve just won the treble!”

“Yeah never mind those trophies, where are the patterns of play!!??” “Such a poorly coached team of champions.”

 

[Di Maria's angel]

We went into a game against a team that had won 20-something on the bounce. Our city rivals no less, at their stadium. Off of the back of a terrible performance midweek, and with our top 4 chances starting to look in jeopardy. Nobody gave us a chance. We won, and won well.

Its pretty much everything that following sport is about to get carried away with the result! Otherwise what's the bloody point in all of this?

No, you're 100% right. It's why so many were left vastly disappointed with the game against Palace. Such a dull performance and result. Also against Chelsea, WBA, Liverpool etc.

 

[RUCK4444]

Ok. So explain this.. after nearly 120 matches in charge, please explain our playing 'style' ? Because, aside from 'Counter-attack and run v fast when opponents lose the ball.. I am not sure I know what it is. So please explain.

We have Rasford, Bruno, Greenwood, Cavani. Pogba took us through a few games. We have loads of defensive minded players. But no playing style, none.

You forget that City have battered us, at OldTrafford in recent seasons too, in a Cup semi-final no less. Where was our amazing coach then? Or the CL campaign? Or the Semi-Final against Arsenal last season. You know, the games that matter (because yesterday isn't going to change anything....). This is what annoys me, we are becoming a club satisfied by the odd result and finishing top four. And I am supposed to say that is the result of 'good' coaching?

We were top of the league a while ago..remember that? And how was our coaching then? How has our coaching been since?

Eh up. A win over our rivals in a derby has got Jeff out of his armchair. Furious with the praise from within the fanbase.

Calm down, if your lucky we might lose to AC Milan.

 

[Stacks]

Exactly, I am tired of people saying Ole has no tactics.

City with this new way of playing with Cancelo looked brilliant until yesterday, where we made sure they cannot use their strengths. It wasn't even the usual sit back and defend either, we looked like we can go toe to toe with City.

Imagine we add a top CDM and RW.

its mainly because of our performances most of the season and results against teams that let us play. We basically dont look like we can play. OLe's tactics have always worked against better sides.

We will probably remain in a top 4 race and finish 3rd most seasons

 

[Infra-red]

One could've imagine what would happen if James or Fred replaced by in form Pogba last night. Our counters would be more devastating.

Fred and McTominay were crucial to the way we defended. They sat really wide, blocking off the channels between the CBs and fullbacks that City usually like to exploit. I wouldn't have fancied Pogba to play a similarly disciplined role. I expect he would have been positioned further forward if he had been fit.

 

[Bilbo]

No, you're 100% right. It's why so many were left vastly disappointed with the game against Palace. Such a dull performance and result. Also against Chelsea, WBA, Liverpool etc.

Those of us who come here every day are force fed the hysterical overreactions every time we don't win a game, so its only fair that we should be able to enjoy the good moments. I know what I would rather read.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

Those of us who come here every day are force fed the hysterical overreactions every time we don't win a game, so its only fair that we should be able to enjoy the good moments. I know what I would rather read.

Honestly, you're not force fed anything. You can enjoy wins with and without Redcafe.

 

[Rocknrolla69er]

I think a most of that has to do with the squad. The best way to beat low blocks is either to pelt them with crosses and have a big guy in there to get on the ball or players with great technique who are great at operating in smalll spaces.

From our XI yesterday, only Bruno and Martial fits the bill, and the later has been in terrible form for most of the season

It's this statement, that makes me scratch my head when we play west brom, sheff Utd etc we don't need Mctominay and Fred when we have the tool of Van de Beek to help Bruno pry open the low block

It's the most frustrating thing about ole I find. Overly cautious vs low block teams

 

[Acole9]

Said no one.

When we lose threads like this are made. When we win the coaching hasn't changed.

 

[romufc]

The fans who despise Ole would have been hurt by the result yesterday.

Everyone raving about Pep's total football but up steps a coach who cannot coach a team and beats them, without parking the bus.

I wonder why the Brilliant coaches that some fans on here think cannot get results from City?