WC All-time All-Stars 2nd Round Polaroid vs Crappy/Pippa

[antohan]

The Vogts marauding runs were weird indeed.

Not sure I fully agree on Dunga though. He has been central to the fantasy vs. discipline debate in Brazil and I'm not surprised at all to see Zizinho saying that, but the fact is he won feck all and Dunga won one WC and matched his runner-up place in the other. What did the '82 side win? Nothing, they couldn't even make the semi. The truth is somewhere in the middle and the fact is while Dunga has been a poster boy for "what is wrong with Brazilian football", he was actually not bad at all in possession and one of the best CMs they've had in the last three decades. Very un-Brazilian, but very effective. Unsurprising with him being from the South of Brazil and having German heritage.

 

[Polaroid]

The Vogts marauding runs were weird indeed.

Not sure I fully agree on Dunga though. He has been central to the fantasy vs. discipline debate in Brazil and I'm not surprised at all to see Zizinho saying that, but the fact is he won feck all and Dunga won one WC and matched his runner-up place in the other. What did the '82 side win? Nothing, they couldn't even make the semi. The truth is somewhere in the middle and the fact is while Dunga has been a poster boy for "what is wrong with Brazilian football", he was actually not bad at all in possession and one of the best CMs they've had in the last three decades. Very un-Brazilian, but very effective. Unsurprising with him being from the South of Brazil and having German heritage.

The parts on Vogts and Passarella were tactical mistakes IMO, fatal mistakes when they are made against Maradona, Eusebio and Boniek
Zito won 2 WC doing what Dunga did and more

 

[Polaroid]

Gotta catch some sleep, will be back later

 

[Theon]

Sorry I was away for a while tying up loose ends from my trip
Just want to share this video of Bobby Moore, what a defender

Amazing video Pol, ridiculous number of tackles for one match!

 

[RoadTrip]

Would like to point out your claim of number of unmatched goals and assists is wrong - check the stats on my front 4 =P.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

That Moore video was fantastic. Pol's made some terrific points here. Will be interested to see how Crappy responds.

 

[Theon]

That Moore video was fantastic. Pol's made some terrific points here. Will be interested to see how Crappy responds.

Yup he has, shame his big post got lost on the end of the last page because he made some great points!

Yeah the video is brilliant, Moore has always had a rough ride in these drafts as well - I have never seen him do well or get any real credit.

 

[antohan]

The parts on Vogts and Passarella were tactical mistakes IMO, fatal mistakes when they are made against Maradona, Eusebio and Boniek

Agreed.

Zito won 2 WC doing what Dunga did and more

So Garrincha, Pelé, Vavá, Didí and the Santos' had nowt to do with it? Come on! I rate Zito but he is incredibly busy with Kopa (I assume Breitner's box-to-box role includes supporting Maldini, not Zito). Dunga and Mauro Silva have a big job in their hands but I expect them to perform that competently and, yes, I do expect Dunga to distribute well when the ball is recovered. Not Cerezo, but not Makelele either.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Yup he has, shame his big post got lost on the end of the last page because he made some great points!

Yeah the video is brilliant, Moore has always had a rough ride in these drafts as well - I have never seen him do well or get any real credit.

Its a strange one. There seems to be a fair bit of reassessment going on in this draft though which is a good thing. Cruyff has generally fared badly in previous drafts but Balu is rehabilitating him well in this one, and you're doing the same with Baggio.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

^ The WC criteria has definitely helped freshen things up in this regard, as have the new managers.

 

[Isotope]

Went with Polaroid, as I prefer a team who has more fluidity in their game. The other team only has Kopa as the one pulling the string.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

1) When playing for France, Fontaine had both Kopa and Piantoni creating for him. Now in absence of Piantoni and (probably) marked Kopa, service to him will still be there, but not as good as the WC.
2) I think Rivaldo/Eusebio combo will work much better, moreso with the movement of Maradona/Boniek creating space for them.
3) Not that easy to mark Maradona out. Despite Nobby Stiles mans making him, Eusebio scored in 66. I don't think they can be held back, especially with Boniek wandering around in the same area. Pol's team will defintiely score and more than once.
4) Crappy might be trying to play Rivelino is a Zagallo'esque position on the wing which I'm sure is not as effective.

Edit:

5) I don't think Garrincha can be shut down either. He along with Maradona are caapable of winning a match on tieir own.

My prediction would be a 2-1 win for Pol!

 

[Polaroid]

Amazing video Pol, ridiculous number of tackles for one match!

Ya! and the quality of those tackles, the cleanness of that tackle where Jairzinho was running at him at pace wow...

Would like to point out your claim of number of unmatched goals and assists is wrong - check the stats on my front 4 =P.

I had my doubts about that claim by Crappy too but did not bother to check out the statistics

That Moore video was fantastic. Pol's made some terrific points here. Will be interested to see how Crappy responds.

Yup he has, shame his big post got lost on the end of the last page because he made some great points!

Yeah the video is brilliant, Moore has always had a rough ride in these drafts as well - I have never seen him do well or get any real credit.

Its a strange one. There seems to be a fair bit of reassessment going on in this draft though which is a good thing. Cruyff has generally fared badly in previous drafts but Balu is rehabilitating him well in this one, and you're doing the same with Baggio.

Concur, never understood how the likes of Moore, Cruyff etc are so underrated here

So Garrincha, Pelé, Vavá, Didí and the Santos' had nowt to do with it? Come on! I rate Zito but he is incredibly busy with Kopa (I assume Breitner's box-to-box role includes supporting Maldini, not Zito). Dunga and Mauro Silva have a big job in their hands but I expect them to perform that competently and, yes, I do expect Dunga to distribute well when the ball is recovered. Not Cerezo, but not Makelele either.

Anto, you missed my point, I was not saying Zito won the WC on his own (just as Dunga did not win the WC on his own). My point was going down the Dunga route is not the only way to win WC, Zito won 2 while being able to do what Dunga did (win the ball) and knowing how to use it - check out his performances in the 62 WC supplying ammunition to Garrincha

Went with Polaroid, as I prefer a team who has more fluidity in their game. The other team only has Kopa as the one pulling the string.

1) When playing for France, Fontaine had both Kopa and Piantoni creating for him. Now in absence of Piantoni and (probably) marked Kopa, service to him will still be there, but not as good as the WC.
2) I think Rivaldo/Eusebio combo will work much better, moreso with the movement of Maradona/Boniek creating space for them.
3) Not that easy to mark Maradona out. Despite Nobby Stiles mans making him, Eusebio scored in 66. I don't think they can be held back, especially with Boniek wandering around in the same area. Pol's team will defintiely score and more than once.
4) Crappy might be trying to play Rivelino is a Zagallo'esque position on the wing which I'm sure is not as effective.

Edit:

5) I don't think Garrincha can be shut down either. He along with Maradona are caapable of winning a match on tieir own.

My prediction would be a 2-1 win for Pol!

Thank you Isotope and Absolute. Crappy has a formidable team but IMO those tactical instructions re Vogts and Passarella will ultimately be severely punished by Maradona, Eusebio, Rivaldo and Boniek

 

[crappycraperson]

I am here. Will answer all the questions.

 

[crappycraperson]

The Vogts marauding runs were weird indeed.

Not sure I fully agree on Dunga though. He has been central to the fantasy vs. discipline debate in Brazil and I'm not surprised at all to see Zizinho saying that, but the fact is he won feck all and Dunga won one WC and matched his runner-up place in the other. What did the '82 side win? Nothing, they couldn't even make the semi. The truth is somewhere in the middle and the fact is while Dunga has been a poster boy for "what is wrong with Brazilian football", he was actually not bad at all in possession and one of the best CMs they've had in the last three decades. Very un-Brazilian, but very effective. Unsurprising with him being from the South of Brazil and having German heritage.

I have not tried to portray Vogts as an attacking full back. Far from it. All discussions about him have actually been about his defensive duties.
I only said that if he is free when my team is in possession, he will help Garrincha out. Did I say he will be creating chances or camping out on the opposition half? No. But it is bizarre if you think he won't make a single forward run.

Next the tactical mistake I supposedly have made with Passsarella. Have I said that Passarella would be constantly going forward? It is obvious against likes of Eusbeio he will primarily be doing his first duty. I only pointed out if he did go forward, Krol, Dunga/Silva can provide cover, not to mention Vogts tucking in. What's next? Any time a defender comes forward for a corner, it is a certain CA goal for the other team? THERE HAS BEEN NO SPECIFIC TACTICAL INSTRUCTION FOR PASSARELLA TO JOIN THE ATTACK ON MOST TIMES

 

[crappycraperson]

To answer some of Pol's questions -

Rivelino - I still think he is capable of stretching out the play by going wide. I have myself watched some vidoes of him and he is capable of attacking from all the positions on the pitch. Would be he be camping on left wing ala Garrincha on right? No, ofcourse not. Here is a video of him -

Dunga- I have not tried to potray him as a midfield maestro. Even when I pointed out he averaged more passes than Xavi, I did not say that he was better than him. He is not someone who is going to split open defenses but he can pass the ball about. You need players like him to keep things ticking over. He has the passing range to spray the ball directly to wings. It is not as simple as marking Kopa to cut off the supply to Mane.

And individual comparison between Zito and Dunga is completely pointless and should play no role here.

Dunga for me comes in a package deal with Silva. It is about the Dunga-Silva combo and the defensive wall they provide here against Maradona.

In your case, as pointed out by Anto, someone like Brietner would be helping out Maldini with Garrincha on occassions, if that is so Zito will be alone against Kopa. Not to mention Rivelino too would be coming into the same area.

 

[crappycraperson]

1) When playing for France, Fontaine had both Kopa and Piantoni creating for him. Now in absence of Piantoni and (probably) marked Kopa, service to him will still be there, but not as good as the WC.
2) I think Rivaldo/Eusebio combo will work much better, moreso with the movement of Maradona/Boniek creating space for them.
3) Not that easy to mark Maradona out. Despite Nobby Stiles mans making him, Eusebio scored in 66. I don't think they can be held back, especially with Boniek wandering around in the same area. Pol's team will defintiely score and more than once.
4) Crappy might be trying to play Rivelino is a Zagallo'esque position on the wing which I'm sure is not as effective.

Edit:

5) I don't think Garrincha can be shut down either. He along with Maradona are caapable of winning a match on tieir own.

My prediction would be a 2-1 win for Pol!

1) It is not easy to just mark out Kopa from the game. Besides Rivelino can create chances for Fontaine. And then there is Mane!

2) You are entitled to your opinion so I won't argue there but I do have a proven combo in Kopa-Fontaine in my attack

3) Eusebio scored a penalty in the semi! How is Stiles marking him out relevant there?

4) Rivelino is not playing as an out and out winger. As I see it he is capable of playing across the three behind Fontaine but since Garrincha will be camping on right, he will be mostly operating from left and center

 

[Polaroid]

To answer some of Pol's questions -

Rivelino - I still think he is capable of stretching out the play by going wide. I have myself watched some vidoes of him and he is capable of attacking from all the positions on the pitch. Would be he be camping on left wing ala Garrincha on right? No, ofcourse not. Here is a video of him -

Dunga- I have not tried to potray him as a midfield maestro. Even when I pointed out he averaged more passes than Xavi, I did not say that he was better than him. He is not someone who is going to split open defenses but he can pass the ball about. You need players like him to keep things ticking over. He has the passing range to spray the ball directly to wings. It is not as simple as marking Kopa to cut off the supply to Mane.

And individual comparison between Zito and Dunga is completely pointless and should play no role here.

Dunga for me comes in a package deal with Silva. It is about the Dunga-Silva combo and the defensive wall they provide here against Maradona.

In your case, as pointed out by Anto, someone like Brietner would be helping out Maldini with Garrincha on occassions, if that is so Zito will be alone against Kopa. Not to mention Rivelino too would be coming into the same area.

Hello Crappy

Rivelino, great player, no dispute on his quality, but what others have rightly picked on is your portrayal of Rivelino as a winger while slamming Rivaldo for providing zero width. It does not sit with reality.

On Dunga you said these

On his WC form he is was a complete midfielder, a fact outlined by his average of 95 passes per match. He would not only stop the opposition play but kick start the attack for his own team.

If someone like Kopa is neutralized, Dunga can still supply the balls to either of Rivelino or Garrincha.

Dunga can win and help retain possession but when one is relying on Dunga to supply the passes in place of Kopa, while at the same time staying tight on Maradona, one is done for really.

The Zito comparison came about because the Brazilian holding midfielders of old provided much better midfield transition than the modern ones.

It was stated in the OP by Aldo - Moore often played as the left center back, Maldini is taking care of Garrincha and Moore is the covering defender. Zito and Breitner will be on Kopa with the luxury of knowing that Dunga and Mauro Silva are limited offensively, particularly when they need to look after Maradona etc. And do not forget Cohen, he isn't going on vacation when the match is on. He will get plenty of help from the indefatigable Boniek too.

 

[crappycraperson]

Am I allowed to post replies from pippa here as well? I am not sure but I can recall there being some rule about only one owner arguing for his team?

 

[Polaroid]

no explicit rules on that crappy, they just do not want a two on one situation, but I am fine with it, please proceed

 

[Polaroid]

I have to leave in a couple of minutes so I hope Aldo will be on later to answer anything that I miss

 

[crappycraperson]

Hello Crappy

Rivelino, great player, no dispute on his quality, but what others have rightly picked on is your portrayal of Rivelino as a winger while slamming Rivaldo for providing zero width. It does not sit with reality.

On Dunga you said these



Dunga can win and help retain possession but when one is relying on Dunga to supply the passes in place of Kopa, while at the same time staying tight on Maradona, one is done for really.

The Zito comparison came about because the Brazilian holding midfielders of old provided much better midfield transition than the modern ones.

It was stated in the OP by Aldo - Moore often played as the left center back, Maldini is taking care of Garrincha and Moore is the covering defender. Zito and Breitner will be on Kopa with the luxury of knowing that Dunga and Mauro Silva are limited offensively, particularly when they need to look after Maradona etc. And do not forget Cohen, he isn't going on vacation when the match is on

I stand by what is being said by Dunga. He will kick start the attacks but not create chances himself. What is wrong with that? The issue here is that people think if Kopa is marked he would not be able to supply balls to Mane. That is a gross over simplification of how football actually works. I never said Dunga would actually replicate what Kopa does.

Kopa is not going to be alone against your two CMs. Rivelino will help him out if he is getting crowded out. Besides Kopa might not have the legend of Maradona but he is not going to be taken out of the game either

Also the talk of Santamaria alone man marking Fontaine is disrespectful. Watch his movement in his goals from that WC in this video and tell me that he can be man marked out the game.


I have seen Muller getting overlooked in these drafts before and unfortunately he is getting the same treatment. In such a tight game, supreme finisher like him is a great asset. Any few chances that may be created by either side will need to be converted and there is little chance that Fontaine will be missing any falling his way.

 

[crappycraperson]

I have to leave in a couple of minutes so I hope Aldo will be on later to answer anything that I miss

Alright. Then I will just post his points for now and keep quite myself untill someone responds to them. BTW good match so far even though voting has been low! Still very tight 5-4!

 

[crappycraperson]

On the subject of left wings

- Garrincha is a winger who commands strict attention from the defence, especially in the case of Maldini. He is a player like Maradona who will require more than one man to negate his influence. Little has been discussed about his battle with Maldini, unfortunately. I do think Maldini could be “got at” as well — he had difficulty playing against an elite winger in Abedi Pelé during that time period -- although that performance is irrelevant as stated by the OP. Just something to keep in mind.

- Big Phil described Rivaldo as a “unique #10” (the English translation) of his performance at the 2002 World Cup. He was never really a left-sided player post-Van Gaal (imo).

- Boniek in 1982 was not a real winger like Garrincha for instance. Much of his best plays came through the middle, for example his hat-trick against Belgium in 1982. He still had his incredible speed but he was much more dominant through the middle.

On the subject of Kopa

- Kopa was the main creator for the French side of 1958. He was the star of the tournament, not Fontaine, remember. @Absolute Fruit Cake It’s worth noting that Piantoni was credited with 3 assists at the 1958 tournament, whereas Kopa was credited with 9 assists.

- Kopa’s partnership with Fontaine is unfortunately overlooked at times. This is the most fruitful playmaker-scorer partnership in a single World Cup. 1958’s Best Player and Golden Boot winner combined is certainly a tough test for any defence.

 

[crappycraperson]

Pippa-

On the subject of our defence

- Maradona himself called Passarella the best defender he has ever seen. Little has been said about Passarella’s defending abilities and his command of his defence, but hopefully his influence on the match is more recognised.

- Förster himself is a top, top defender. In the 1986 final he made some absolutely astonishing stops on Maradona and Valdano, After Argentina ran out to a 2:0 lead, Förster was given the duties of man marking Maradona alone. Maradona was still performing very well, but the level he was at before the change from Matthäus was very, very evident.

- Vogts successfully man marked Cruijff in the 1974 final. Few footballers can ever claim to have done something greater than that as a single defensive performance. With Rivaldo tucking in, Vogts would tuck in as well to keep the middle compact.

- Krol is a hybrid defender and one of the best available for that position. He combines strong defensive capabilities with the ability to jump forward and join the attack. He is a player who embodies the “total football” philosophy. Here is an excerpt from FIFA:

His [Michels] 1974 team ostensibly lined up in a 4-3-3 with Jonny Rep charging down the right flank and Rob Rensenbrink doing the same down the left. Charges from full-backs Wim Suurbier and Ruud Krol added further options in an attack that seemed to swell and recede at will, while Cruyff was given licence to roam the pitch looking for ways to unlock opposing teams. The key to Michels' concept was intelligent movement, understanding and fitness.
He, unlike his competing left back in Maldini will readily be able to provide width on the left.

On the subject of our opponent’s defence

- Moore was a fantastic defender and all, but I don’t think showing a video from his 1970 World Cup is relevant considering his peak was in 1966.

- I’ve never heard of José Santamaría being rated as an elite man marker, like Förster for instance. Is there anything that backs this claim, out of interest?

- Maldini will have to be at his finest to defend against Garrincha, and I don’t think he could do it alone. The likes of Pelé, Maradona, and Garrincha can’t just be neutralised by one defender, regardless of who the defender is. Is @@Polaroid going to defend Garrincha just with Maldini?

- I’ve actually never heard of George Cohen before this game (not that it's a bad thing), but it does look like he will have a peripheral role in the match. Rivelino as has been discussed was not a natural winger in 1970, like Rivaldo in 2002 and Boniek in 1982. Will he tuck in, allowing Krol to move up on the wing? I’m not sure.

 

[crappycraperson]

On the subject of our attack

- I’m not sure if our group are being paid their fair dues, to be honest. In terms of World Cup pedigree, it stands as one of the best, if not the best this draft can offer at this point. Fontaine and Kopa provide some natural chemistry that brought them huge acclaim in 1958, Garrincha took over the world in 1962, and Rivelino was a very, very strong performer in 1970.

- @rpitroda Not quite. You compiled the goals and assists tally for your attacker’s entire World Cup careers. I’ve done it for our player’s peaks alone. For example, Fontaine’s peak in 1958, Kopa’s peak in 1958, Garrincha’s peak in 1962, and Rivelino’s peak in 1970. That gives us a tally of 23 goals and 17 assists in those tournaments. If you were to look at the peaks of your players for instance (Ronaldo 2002, Zidane 2006, Hagi 1994, Lato 1974), the goal/assist tally would total at 21 goals and 6 assists. Huge difference. I understand how you could have mis-interpreted it wrongly, though.

- Kopa is not the only person who can pull strings in our attack. Rivelino has all the creative ability in the world, and Garrincha can be a one-man show on the wing or even through the centre.

- Here’s a quote from Kopa on his partnership with Fontaine, courtesy of FIFA: "'Justo' was the striker who best suited my style of play," added Raymond Kopa, voted Best Player at Sweden 1958 [...] "He knew exactly what I was doing and I could be sure of finding him at the end of one of my dribbles." That’s what a natural partnership brings you, not just sticking elite players and hoping for them to do the damage together at the forefront of your attack.

At this point in time, each team has great, great individuals. But sometimes it's something simple like having a connection with a player like @Balu does with Jairzinho-Carlos Alberto that just brings out the best out of an already amazing team.

 

[Polaroid]

I stand by what is being said by Dunga. He will kick start the attacks but not create chances himself. What is wrong with that? The issue here is that people think if Kopa is marked he would not be able to supply balls to Mane. That is a gross over simplification of how football actually works. I never said Dunga would actually replicate what Kopa does.

Kopa is not going to be alone against your two CMs. Rivelino will help him out if he is getting crowded out. Besides Kopa might not have the legend of Maradona but he is not going to be taken out of the game either

Also the talk of Santamaria alone man marking Fontaine is disrespectful. Watch his movement in his goals from that WC in this video and tell me that he can be man marked out the game.

I have seen Muller getting overlooked in these drafts before and unfortunately he is getting the same treatment. In such a tight game, supreme finisher like him is a great asset. Any few chances that may be created by either side will need to be converted and there is little chance that Fontaine will be missing any falling his way.

And needing both Moore and Santamaria against Fontaine is respectful?

You have a great team Crappy but the difference is that in the key areas
1. You have it harder to keep Maradona 86 quiet than Kopa 58
2. You have it harder to have offensive transition and contribution from Dunga/Mauro Silva than Breitner/Zito
3. You have it harder with Fontaine waiting for service while Eusebio can create his own chances

 

[Polaroid]

On the subject of our opponent’s defence

- Moore was a fantastic defender and all, but I don’t think showing a video from his 1970 World Cup is relevant considering his peak was in 1966.

- I’ve never heard of José Santamaría being rated as an elite man marker, like Förster for instance. Is there anything that backs this claim, out of interest?

- Maldini will have to be at his finest to defend against Garrincha, and I don’t think he could do it alone. The likes of Pelé, Maradona, and Garrincha can’t just be neutralised by one defender, regardless of who the defender is. Is @@Polaroid going to defend Garrincha just with Maldini?

- I’ve actually never heard of George Cohen before this game (not that it's a bad thing), but it does look like he will have a peripheral role in the match. Rivelino as has been discussed was not a natural winger in 1970, like Rivaldo in 2002 and Boniek in 1982. Will he tuck in, allowing Krol to move up on the wing? I’m not sure.

And Moore was the best defender for Pele, Beckanbauer, Sir Alex Ferguson etc...
Pippa's argument on Moore is bizarre. If Pippa is saying his peak is 66 and even better than what was in the video, then thank you.
On Santamaria, refer to Anto's post earlier in the thread.
Moore is the covering defender in defence, Paulo Maldini, who is not exactly a mug himself, is not alone - it is in the OP and we have repeated it so many times, are you choosing to ignore this or is it coming across as invisible font?
Krol move up the the wing and leave Boniek, one of the deadliest counterattackers of all time free? Wham, bang, thank you!

I really have to go now, the managers here are very knowledgeable, they can fill you in all the players and their qualities if you really do not know

 

[Moby]

All square now. Need votes here. @antohan @Balu @Theon @rpitroda @Cal? @Gio @Thisistheone

 

[RoadTrip]

Still thinking lads... Will get a vote in soon.

Edit: not that I see any comments or votes from you douchers in my game! =P

 

[Moby]

Still thinking lads... Will get a vote in soon.

Edit: not that I see any comments or votes from you douchers in my game! =P

Yours will be on till evening so I have time to think. This one's gonna be over soon hence asked people.

 

[RoadTrip]

I've had a read through the thread now and it's tough. Both make very valid points.

I really do like Crappy/Pippa's team but I think they are unfortunately in that Pol/Aldo have a number of strengths where they need them most. It's on that basis I'm going to go with them.

 

[Moby]

Pippa's response :

- But Moore wouldn’t be coming up against Pelé, Beckenbauer, or Sir Alex Ferguson. The difference between the two is that Maradona will be coming against in his eyes the best defender he has ever seen.

- No offence mate, but that is very, very convoluted logic. Saying that Moore would automatically be better in 1966 because of a great match he had in 1970 is facetious and could be completely inaccurate. I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone would say Moore was better in 1970 than he was in 1966.

- I did look at it, but there is absolutely nothing that backs the claim of Santamaría being an elite man-marker, mate. I am well aware of his reputation as arguably the best defender of the 1950s, but I’m interested because you said that he is one of the top 2 or 3 man-markers of all time.

- I just wanted confirmation on your setup before I made the next point, so there are no mis-understandings. By the looks of it, you want Moore to play two crucial roles — supporting against Garrincha and Fontaine. Which I assume means Santamaría will man-mark Fontaine, Zito will mark Kopa (with Breitner as support), and Cohen will tuck inside with Rivelino.

- Out of interest, where do you think the likes of Mauro Silva and Dunga would be, seeing as how you don’t think they would contribute much to our attack? Football is not played at warp speed, so I very, very much doubt that such an event would happen.

As an aside, I would’ve thought that Paul Breitner’s peak would have been in 1974. It’s recognised that Germany began the tournament poorly in the 1982 World Cup when Breitner was playing as a central midfielder, and it turns out that Breitner was not even a part of the Team of the Tournament in 1982 — rather 1974, as a left back.

Does anyone else have thoughts on Breitner’s World Cup peak?

 

[crappycraperson]

And needing both Moore and Santamaria against Fontaine is respectful?

You have a great team Crappy but the difference is that in the key areas
1. You have it harder to keep Maradona 86 quiet than Kopa 58
2. You have it harder to have offensive transition and contribution from Dunga/Mauro Silva than Breitner/Zito
3. You have it harder with Fontaine waiting for service while Eusebio can create his own chances

My point about Fontaine is that you can just assign one defender to him and say he is taken care of. He will be making runs all over the penalty box.

1) Maradona 86 > Kopa 58, I am not going to argue there. Kopa does have his partner in crime Fontaine playing with him though. Maradona-Eusbieo may not working to full potential is something others have commented on. There is no such doubt about Kopa-Fontaine
2) I maintain that Dunga is being made out to be a mug here. I am not overrating him anyway, he is more than capable enough to link up with Riveino, Kopa, Garrincha. Would he go on dribbling runs and create chances? Of course not. But that is not his role.
3) Fontaine is perfect for my team. Him dropping deep won't help me at all. I need to him to push SantaMaria and Moore. Him staying in and around the box also will create more space for Kopa and Rivelino. Not to mention those two and Garrincha will always have a body in the box to target.

Yes, these are both great teams. I am glad that scoreline reflects the same and none of us is running away with it. It will be tight but I think my players have superior WC pedigree and have two proven partnerships in there which gives me the required edge.

 

[Thisistheone]

All square now. Need votes here. @antohan @Balu @Theon @rpitroda @Cal? @Gio @Thisistheone

Sorry, been caught up in the whole Mata muppetry and of course the deflating match from last night...

It's incredibly hard to choose.

I'll need a bit more time to think but I will definitely vote before the end of the game.

 

[Gio]

I think the point about Moore not being at his peak in 1970 is really a red herring. He ran a tight ship in Mexico, one that restricted a free-scoring Brazil to a single goal (the only defence in the tournament to stop them from hitting three or more). If anything it backs up and supports Moore's status that he has two strong tournaments to call on (like Dunga or Ronaldo for example).

 

[Balu]

I'm completely clueless who to go for, honestly. A draw reflects the game very well, imo. At the moment, I slightly prefer Crappy because of the proven partnerships and because calling the Vogts and Passarella comments 'tactical mistakes' was very harsh. Those were more reactions to very specific extreme situations that rarely appear anyway than actual tactical decisions to use regularly. Don't really understand why there was so much focus on them. It's not enough to make a decision at the moment, though and I happily enjoy another penalty shootout if it's still a draw in the end .

Both teams are quality, really, great job drafting and unlucky that you faced each other in this round.

 

[crappycraperson]

I'm completely clueless who to go for, honestly. A draw reflects the game very well, imo. At the moment, I slightly prefer Crappy because of the proven partnerships and because calling the Vogts and Passarella comments 'tactical mistakes' was very harsh. Those were more reactions to very specific extreme situations that rarely appear anyway than actual tactical decisions to use regularly. Don't really understand why there was so much focus on them. It's not enough to make a decision at the moment, though and I happily enjoy another penalty shootout if it's still a draw in the end .

Both teams are quality, really, great job drafting and unlucky that you faced each other in this round.

Thanks for your comments on Vogts and Passarella.

Once again, I have never mentioned that I am playing Vogts as an attacking full back. To say on times he will make forward runs does not translate into that.
Same with Passarella.

According to Pol, anytime one of my defenders may go forward to support the attack be it even Krol, it would result in a CA goal. That's not how football works. I have Dunga-Silva in there not just for Maradona but to provide another defensive line.

 

[crappycraperson]

Also I hope everyone votes instead of sitting on the fence. I would rather lose with more votes than have less votes involved

 

[Balu]

Also I hope everyone votes instead of sitting on the fence. I would rather lose with more votes than have less votes involved

I know that feeling, I thought the same in my last game. But I feel so bad to vote for either of you at the moment .