WC All-time All-Stars 2nd Round Polaroid vs Crappy/Pippa

[crappycraperson]

I agree Kopa being cut off doesn't shut you out. I mentioned as much earlier with Rivelino being a better "plan B #10" than Rivaldo.

All I was pointing out is one plus for Eusebio relative to Fontaine is he can drop deep and create his own chances. If I'm going to point out that I prefer Maradona having a "referencia de área" (someone more like Fontaine) it is only fair that I also point out that Eusebio not fitting that remit has a silver-lining.

Fair point.

 

[crappycraperson]

Also it seems to unfairly go a bit too much against Crappy right now because Pol isn't here. I think Cohen would have huge issues against Rivelino and Krol. How will Cohen shut down Rivelinos passing options to Krol as well as the shooting options/pass centrally.

My issues with his team has mainly been that he has oversold players who are already great - if I had to vote now I'd for for Crappy though.

- On WC form who is better Forster or SantaMaria?

Both in and outside of WC it is Santamaria.

- Eusebio VS Fontaine?

Eusebio is by far the better player overall, he is a complete forward. He can drop deeper and collect balls and so on.

Fontaine however is a more clinical finisher in terms of a WC. One must assume if there is a free goal chance Fontaine would be most likely to score of all WC players. Fontaine is also a master of counter-attacks and direct attacks.

So it will come down to who has the style to fit them in? I think Crappy has the edge here.

May be you are right, but there is a reason for that. Only player me and pippa have not written too much about is Mane because he will get the credit he deserves.

For casual voters, names of Maradona, Rivaldo and Eusebio are enough to vote. Rivelino, Kopa and Fontaine do not have the same luxury. I mean for all the talk of attacking talent in display, it is being overlooked that Kopa-Fontaine is a proven WC partnership. Maradona-Eusebio may or may not work.

 

[crappycraperson]

BTW I have PMed Aldo to make that change in OP about Kopa.

Also have voted for myself, either of Pol or Aldo can do the same. Trailing 2-0 right now by virtue of comment-less voters

 

[antohan]

Ok first of all here is question for others, I genuinely don't know so asking-

- On WC form who is better Forster or SantaMaria?

Tough one. I always felt Forster was very good indeed. Some have pointed out he made some boobies, which I have no recollection of. It also doesn't help I mix up WC82 and Euro 80s all the time in my blurry memories. Germany was a decidedly better team in 1980.

Santamaría is a tough one. Largely regarded as the best CB at that World Cup, or maybe the only one that wasn't made to look like a complete mug. It was a very high-scoring affair and broke all sorts of World Cup records (to this day). Madrid did look to him as the standout defensive Galáctico on the back of that performance though, which is telling. I do think he was caught ball-watching in one of the Hungarian goals but you would expect a slip against that side over 120 minutes.

It's the best defender from the 50s vs. a very good one from the 80s though, so I wouldn't push that line of enquiry.

Then Fontaine and Eusebio. The latter may be the better player but Fontaine unquestionably showed superior WC form. He was perfect at what he was supposed to do. Talk about one defender marking him out of the game is non sense.

Eusebio took the biscuit in 66 though and showed up when it most mattered. I wouldn't say it is unquestionable as many of Fontaine's goals were against pretty poor sides or in a dead rubber (3rd place game is no more than a friendly to me). He is harder to man-mark as well IMO, and more potent on the break.

That said, I think both sides could be better off with Fontaine in them, particularly yours. Different strikers really, each fit for purpose in their own way.

Then Fontaine is being made out as the only goal threat something far from true. Garrincha, Rivelino and Kopa can all score as well.

True, I fancy Rivelino in particular the way almost everyone seems so focused on the rest.

 

[Moby]

BTW I have PMed Aldo to make that change in OP about Kopa.

Also have voted for myself, either of Pol or Aldo can do the same. Trailing 2-0 right now by virtue of comment-less voters

I won't as I am the assistant. Pol should once he is here.

 

[crappycraperson]

Eusebio took the biscuit in 66 though and showed up when it most mattered. I wouldn't say it is unquestionable as many of Fontaine's goals were against pretty poor sides or in a dead rubber (3rd place game is no more than a friendly to me). He is harder to man-mark as well IMO, and more potent on the break.

That said, I think both sides could be better off with Fontaine in them, particularly yours. Different strikers really, each fit for purpose in their own way.



True, I fancy Rivelino in particular the way almost everyone seems so focused on the rest.

Even if you take out Fontaine's 4 goals from the 3rd place match. He still had 9. Eusebio had a hat trick against North Korea himself. And just like Fontaine scored a solitary goal in the semi-final (a penalty though)

A good article on his scoring feats in that WC -

Records are made to be broken, especially that deliciously snappable Milli Vanilli vinyl, but with some you might as well save your energy. There is surely no storm perfect enough for Just Fontaine's record of 13 goals in a World Cup, set with France in 1958, to be beaten. In only one of the last nine tournaments has a player scored even half as many, when Ronaldo managed eight in 2002.



Fontaine was a born finisher, smooth and strikingly two-footed. There are similarities with the greatest goalscorer of them all, Gerd Müller: both were squat men with formidable strength, particularly in their tree-trunk thighs, and both had a supernatural awareness and serenity in their patch of land, the 18-yard box.



Like a few of France's greatest players, Fontaine wasn't born in France. He was born of a Spanish mother in Marrakech, then part of French Morocco, and started his club career with USM Casablanca. Fontaine later moved to Nice and then Reims, as a replacement for the Madrid-bound genius Raymond Kopa. It was with Kopa, one of the great No10s, that he would have such an impact in Sweden in 1958. Fontaine went into the tournament at his peak: he was 24 years old, relatively fresh because of an unplanned winter break for a knee operation, and had just hit 34 goals in 26 league games to help Reims to the double.



Yet his part in the tournament was not set in stone. Fontaine had played only five times in as many years for France before the tournament; after scoring a hat-trick on his international debut, in a World Cup qualifier, he was not picked again for three years. (This is nowhere near as daft as it sounds: Fontaine was one of 11 debutants in a dead rubber 8-0 win against Luxembourg, who were such weak opponents that he would probably have needed to score all eight to catch the eye.)



He continued to put goals on the board for Reims, and was eventually recalled, although when France arrived in Sweden for the World Cup, he had only scored one international goal in 53 months. The France national selector Paul Nicolas privately told both Fontaine and René Bliard that they would be the man to play ahead of Kopa and the excellent Roger Piantoni. Fate sorted out a potentially tricky situation: Bliard went home after he was injured in a warm-up match.



Fontaine feasted on a steady stream of gorgeous passes from Kopa – man had not discovered the sweeper in those days – and their partnership, though short-lived at international level, was legendary. Fontaine scored in all six matches, starting with a hat-trick in an unexpected 7-3 demolition of a decent Paraguay side who led 3-2 at one stage. Two more followed in a 3-2 defeat to Yugoslavia before he scored one and made one (for Kopa, a rare example of the fluffer being fluffed) in the 2-1 win over Scotland that put France into the quarter-finals.



There they met a tired Northern Ireland, who were dismissed 4-0. Fontaine scored two, the second a supreme goalscorer's goal. France's performance was so majestic that the Swedish newspaper Svenska Dagbladet said: "You have to go back a very long way in history to find any trace of a team that has played as elegantly in Sweden as the French."



In the semi-finals they met the favourites Brazil, who had Pelé, Garrincha, Nílton Santos, Didi, Vavá, Mario Zagallo and the rest. Vavá scored in the second minute, but seven minutes later Fontaine equalised classily after a beautiful buildup. "One has never seen a finer goal," wrote the man from the Guardian. It remained 1-1 until the 36th minute, when Vavá broke the leg of the France captain, Robert Jonquet. There were no substitutes in those days, so Jonquet spent the rest of the game wincing on the wing, and Brazil trounced the 10 men 5-2.



It meant that, to beat Sandor Kocsis's record of 11 goals in a World Cup, set with Hungary in 1954, Fontaine needed to score three in the third-place play-off against West Germany. He hit four in a 6-3 win. The game was competitive only in name – "Fontaine only had to stay on his feet to score goals," wrote Cris Freddi is his definitive history of the World Cup – but even then, Fontaine had scored nine in the first five games, in a tournament where no other player hit more than six. "These were easy pickings," adds Freddi, "but his credentials as a goalscorer stand up to any scrutiny."



His overall total could have been more than 13. He hit the bar twice against Scotland and let Kopa take a penalty against West Germany, even though at that stage he only had 10 goals for the tournament.



Fontaine's scoring feats are even more improbable in view of the fact that he was not even wearing his own boots: he had to borrow a pair from a team-mate (not, as some of you familiar with tales of magic boots might suspect, Jimmy "Dead Shot" Keen, but Stéphane Bruey).



Nor did he receive a Golden Boot at the end of the tournament: in those days there was no formal presentation, and he had to make do with an air rifle from a local newspaper. Forty years later he received a golden boot from Gary Lineker as part of a television programme tracing the history of the award.



Fontaine broke his leg twice in 1960 and, as a consequence, played his last international at the age of 27, finishing with the computer-game record of 30 goals in 21 appearances. His strike rate of 1.43 goals per game is the highest of anybody with 30 international goals. In 10 competitive internationals he scored 21 times.



He went on to manage France, Luchon, Paris Saint-Germain, Toulouse and Morocco, with mixed success. He also inspired an indie band who "don't really do happy!". Now, at the age of 78, he lives in Toulouse, owns two Lacoste shops and predicts results for the French pools. "I spend my days playing belote [a French card game]," he says. "Other than that I watch the African Nations Cup, the Premier League, the Bundesliga, Serie A, La Liga ..."



Fontaine has regularly dismissed the idea that goals were a cheaper currency in his day. "No, it wasn't easier to score in 1958," he said, possibly 0.00000000004 seconds after watching a video of David Luiz. "The state of the ball, the length of the trip over and the amateurism of the backroom staff made everything much more complicated than today. I had somebody else's boots as well. And the last great World Cup scorer, Ronaldo, played against teams such as China and Costa Rica. Above all else, referees protect strikers much more than they did in my day. So let me repeat it: 13 goals is an enormous total. Beating my record? I don't think it can ever be done.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2012/jan/12/just-fontaine-13-goals-world-cup

 

[antohan]

May be you are right, but there is a reason for that. Only player me and pippa have not written too much about is Mane because he will get the credit he deserves.

From my experience, once he has a good LB on him he seems to all but disappear from the pitch.

For casual voters, names of Maradona, Rivaldo and Eusebio are enough to vote. Rivelino, Kopa and Fontaine do not have the same luxury. I mean for all the talk of attacking talent in display, it is being overlooked that Kopa-Fontaine is a proven WC partnership. Maradona-Eusebio may or may not work.

If it helps, I do keep that in mind and have commented as much. Get your point though, scan voters leaving no feedback are very frustrating.

 

[crappycraperson]

From my experience, once he has a good LB on him he seems to all but disappear from the pitch.



If it helps, I do keep that in mind and have commented as much. Get your point though, scan voters leaving no feedback are very frustrating.

I know you have but most others don't take that into account. I am not saying Maradona-Eusbeio won't work but that it is unlikely that they would have striker the partnership Kopa-Fontaine had.

 

[crappycraperson]

Pippa asked me to post this regarding 58 best player thing -

According to the player profile of Kopa on FIFA:

http://www.fifa.com/classicfootball/players/player=174677/

Yet the pinnacle of his career arguably came at the 1958 FIFA World Cup Sweden, where he was recognised as the player of the tournament, a not inconsiderable achievement given the goalscoring feats of team-mate Just Fontaine and the exploits of an emerging teenager by the name of Pele.

In Fontaine's profile on FIFA:

http://www.fifa.com/classicfootball/players/player=29875/

"'Justo' was the striker who best suited my style of play," added Raymond Kopa, voted Best Player at Sweden 1958, a tournament which also marked the dawning of a new talent by the name of Pele. "He knew exactly what I was doing and I could be sure of finding him at the end of one of my dribbles."

Now, as I thought most of the people would have known, but the World Cup "Golden Ball" award was given retrospectively from 1930-1978. Rossi won the first "official" Golden Ball but the rest were given out at a later date, not at the time of the tournament like the Golden Boot award.

At the time of the tournament, Kopa was recognised as the best player at WC 1958.

 

[antohan]

Even if you take out Fontaine's 4 goals from the 3rd place match. He still had 9. Eusebio had a hat trick against North Korea himself. And just like Fontaine scored a solitary goal in the semi-final (a penalty though)

A good article on his scoring feats in that WC -

Eusebio actually got four against North Korea. To his credit though, they were 3-0 down and they all mattered a great deal. No idea what the score was with that North Korean side (drugs?) but they weren't as bad as you would expect reading "North Korea". He also got a brace against Brazil, and a cracker to boot. Portugal got fecked against England with the stadiums being changed and all.

I see the point re: France being effectively down to ten in the semi but, leaving that aside, it is only the brace against Yugoslavia I rate highly. There was much comical defending (and particularly goalkeeping, as they seemed to be nailed to the goalline). The one mentioned above vs. Northern Ireland was a beauty though, whether tired or not. To be fair, I'd agree we can't put down a striker based on how crappy the defenders/keepers he faced were, he was consistently deadly whatever was put in front of him.

 

[crappycraperson]

Found this great video on Didi-Kopa battle in 58 semi between Brazil and France

 

[Moby]

So, you found that video finally.

 

[crappycraperson]

That Fontaine goal in that video around 2 minute mark The link up between him and Kopa..

 

[crappycraperson]

So, you found that video finally.

This draft has been great for me. Read up about so many players I had no clue about. That video for example. fecking hell. The level of those two players. Immense.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I rate Kopa very highly to be honest, one of the best non-winning AM's in the draft. I'd say the best because I can't remember any better but I am sure I'd look a fool when someone drops a name.

Kopa carried Fontaine in that WC, I would have loved to seen Kopa with Eusebio that would have produced even more goals.

 

[antohan]

I love the way the aggro increases as you go along

It's a cracker indeed crappy.

 

[antohan]

I rate Kopa very highly to be honest, one of the best non-winning AM's in the draft.

Sounds like you are rubbing your hands in expectation. Let me guess, playing him as a RAM, right?

 

[Annahnomoss]

Sounds like you are rubbing your hands in expectation. Let me guess, playing him as a RAM, right?

Damn straight.

 

[Arruda]

This draft has been great for me. Read up about so many players I had no clue about. That video for example. fecking hell. The level of those two players. Immense.

I second this.

Personally I have absolutely nothing to add to these threads but love reading them. Still watching Van Hanegem on youtube whenever I'm drunk or stoned. What a beast of a player, both physically and technically. It became one of my favourite football videos.

 

[Moby]

Only WC footage, please.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Only WC footage, please.

Deleted!

 

[Gio]

Two great teams, well done lads. Crappy's XI has been harnessed truly in keeping with the spirit of the draft. And it's well balanced with complementary partnerships across the park. For Polaroid, there is a lot of top-end individual quality which provided memorable and significant performances on the World Cup stage. I prefer Rivaldo to Rivelino in this instance, especially in a World Cup draft, and like Anna said he offers both no10 play and productive wider work to a higher level IMO than what Rivelino offered. He also has a more natural position on the park, marrying the inside-left role of France '98 with the freedom of the no10 role of Japan/Korea '02.

Best player of the '58 World Cup according to who? This is very deceitful even if I don't think it is on purpose.

Golden ball of '58 was awarded to Didi.
Silver ball to Pele
Bronze ball to Fontaine(Not Kopa which you imply)

Will read all the tactics, then give an input.

Agree that it has to be justified. But we shouldn't place everything on the Golden Ball awards, many of which are highly contestable.

Then Fontaine and Eusebio. The latter may be the better player but Fontaine unquestionably showed superior WC form.

I'm not sure about this. While I take Anto's point that Eusebio isn't a pure fit given his propensity to drop into territory occupied by Maradona and Rivaldo, his all-round, line-leading and midfield-ripping performances in '66 are unparalleled from another centre-forward in the history of the tournament.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I think it derails a bit when it is a discussion about Kopa/Fontaine vs Maradona/Eusebio. Garrincha is Crappys best offensive player and Rivelino is slightly better than Rivaldo.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Agree that it has to be justified. But we shouldn't place everything on the Golden Ball awards, many of which are highly contestable.

I'm not sure about this. While I take Anto's point that Eusebio isn't a pure fit given his propensity to drop into territory occupied by Maradona and Rivaldo, his all-round, line-leading and midfield-ripping performances in '66 are unparalleled from another centre-forward in the history of the tournament.

I agree of course! But if one mentions "best of the tournament" without any other reference to it - it is almost always the Fifa WC awards. Just wanted to point out that it wasn't therefore we needed clarification(which we got).

 

[Gio]

It's unfortunate for crappy/pippa that his top dog is up against Maldini, whereas Cohen is getting an easier ride on the other flank.

 

[crappycraperson]

It's unfortunate for crappy/pippa that his top dog is up against Maldini, whereas Cohen is getting an easier ride on the other flank.

It's true. I don't buy that Maldini would completely shut out Garrincha.
Also Vogts, although known more of his defensive qualities, can go forward and double up on Maldini. Some one will have to help Maldini out, be it one of the CMs or Moore since Rivaldo won't be tracking back.

 

[Gio]

It's true. I don't buy that Maldini would completely shut out Garrincha.

Yes. Maldini has had the very occasional chasing from certain wingers, Brian Laudrup, Andrei Kanchelskis, come to mind, but it's hard to think of anyone who has got the better of him on the World Cup stage, apart from perhaps Maradona in 1990.

 

[Moby]

Alright, Pol is here and I am off.

Good luck.

 

[Polaroid]

Alright, Pol is here and I am off.

Good luck.

Thank you Aldo for the excellent write-up, could you add your name to the team before you leave

 

[crappycraperson]

Thank you Aldo for the excellent write-up, could you add your name to the team before you leave

I have voted so you can do the same

 

[Polaroid]

I have voted so you can do the same

Thanks Crappy, will do so. Will get up to speed on the posts and share my thoughts.

 

[crappycraperson]

Dead square now. I am gonna watch the match now, will check in between for any comments

 

[antohan]

It's unfortunate for crappy/pippa that his top dog is up against Maldini, whereas Cohen is getting an easier ride on the other flank.

I mentioned early in the draft I couldn't understand people's hard-ons for fullbacks seeing as there are so very few top class wingers and largely right ones. Cohen may well go unchallenged for the entire draft TBH. This is not to blow my own trumpet, but there isn't a better out and out left winger than Czibor and Pol already has Boniek, who is the only other I could see really troubling a decent World Cup RB.

 

[antohan]

It's true. I don't buy that Maldini would completely shut out Garrincha.
Also Vogts, although known more of his defensive qualities, can go forward and double up on Maldini. Some one will have to help Maldini out, be it one of the CMs or Moore since Rivaldo won't be tracking back.

Breitner, surely.

 

[antohan]

Dead square now. I am gonna watch the match now, will check in between for any comments

Thanks for the reminder!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[crappycraperson]

Breitner, surely.

Yeah probably but that's fine by me since it gives more space for Kopa to work his magic.

 

[antohan]

True, it's more a Zito job to stop Kopa.

 

[Polaroid]

Sorry I was away for a while tying up loose ends from my trip
Just want to share this video of Bobby Moore, what a defender

 

[Snow]

I always have a very hard time voting on these things. I often can't see to see one side beating the other. Individual mistakes and set pieces are often the key in breaking the deadlock between two even mistakes. Predicting where that mistake will come from is hard.

 

[Polaroid]

Ok then my thoughts on your tactics-

-Consequence of having no width on left side
- Rivaldo is not going to help out Maldini against Mane. So either one of your CMs or Moore will have to help him out. This would create more space for Fontaine and Kopa to play with.
- Maldini being pinned back means there is no attacking threat what so ever on the left wing. Rivaldo is not the type to attack from a wide position. If someone like Brietner is going to bomb forward on the left to stretch the play, it will play into the hands of Kopa again.
- Vogts would effectively be free for most of the game to double up on Maldini with Garrincha. Other times he can happily track either Rivaldo or Maradona.

- Brietner and Zito on Kopa
- Both of them would hardly be marking Kopa. Fontaine is good enough to keep the attention of both your CBs. Letting your full backs alone against Mane and Rivelino will be suicide. Both the CMs would at times will have to help out against the wingers and over lapping full backs.
- This is the stark difference between both sides. I have the players in my team to stretch the play to create even more space in the middle. Dunga-Silva in my team would not be needed to help out against Boniek and Rivaldo.

- It's all on Maradona
- It is one thing to build your team around Diego but here if he has an off day or is successfully taken out of the game by my players, I don't think his front three would work as intended. In contrast even if someone like Mane is neutralized I still have Kopa to create chances. If someone like Kopa is neutralized, Dunga can still supply the balls to either of Rivelino or Garrincha.

Surprised this is coming from Crappy
1. Bizarre that you are selling Rivelino as a winger while simultaneously attacking Rivaldo as the type not to attack from a wide position. Surely you have not mixed them up, no?
2. Another oddity, Vogts was no Cafu, he was hardly known for his attacking prowess and pace. Tasking Vogts to go forward for most of the game is him challenging the likes of Rivaldo/Boniek/Maradona to a footrace. Add to that the propensity of Eusebio to attack the channels, notably the left (ie. your right) and your instruction to Passarella to advance as a libero w/o the protection of a back 5, in complete disregard of my distinct advantage in pace, that is a disaster waiting to happen for your team. My team gleefully accepts this gift to rip your side apart on the counters.


3. You do realise you are talking about Bobby Moore and Jose Santamaria, don't you? Both of them for one Fontaine? Wow...

"The greatest defender I ever played against" Pele
"Moore was the best defender I have ever seen." Sir Alex Ferguson
"Bobby Moore was the best defender in the history of the game" Franz Beckanbauer
"There should be a law against him. He knows what's happening 20 minutes before everyone else." Jock Stein

That tackle on Jairzinho

Santamaria became the first Galactico defender on the back of his WC performances, replicating his impression of a one-man defensive wall that enabled Madrid to sweep all of Europe before them. He remains to date one of the top 2 or 3 man-markers of all time.

4. All on Maradona? you mean like 86 or now that he has Eusebio, Rivaldo, Boniek, Breitner, Zito, Moore, Maldini...

5. I don't get this Dunga as a complete midfielder portrait that you have in your OP as well as this creation of chances for your frontline that you painted above. If anything, Dunga was criticized for the dull and limited aspects of his game. He was a very good player but he fulfills specific functions of breaking up play and keeping it simple by giving the ball to more gifted teammates, totally unlike what you have described. In fact, Zizinho in his autobiography lamented what a disgrace it was that Brazil's holding midfielders since the 90s have stopped knowing how to use the ball
“They’ve given the cabeca-de-area [the midfielder who sits in front of the centre backs], a man who has in his power 70% of his team’s possession, the specific function of destroying, when it should be to set up the moves.”
Ask Brazilians and they would have Zito over Dunga anyday everyday.

Odd that all these are coming from you as I thought you would know better. Surely these can't get past the other managers.