He's no legend outside united. Certainly not everton's and england's
Wayne Rooney - Manchester United Legend
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He's no legend outside united. Certainly not everton's and england's
1. rio is saying he is
2. that doesnt mean anything. Cantona isnt a legend for anyone other than united fans. very few are.
Well until Wenger comes out and says he nearly signed him I can't consider him a legend..
He is undoubtedly a legend of English football, even if not the English football team. To argue otherwise is pretty futile - he will go down in history as one of English football's legendary figures - there is no doubt about that whatsoever.
He's a premier league legend, he'd be in most highlight reels. Legend doesn't have to mean people share any affinity for him.
Yeah. What has he won? What part of a great campaign he participated in and making contributions?
If anything shearer and beckham are more legendary when it cones to england
Guessing there's a strong correlation between the 'No legend, good riddance' bunch and those who view the last few years of Fergie's reign as: "Trophies? So what! We were outspent by City!"
A legend, yeah.
But like a few other British legends (Gascoigne, Best spring to mind) I will forever have that lingering "what if?" about him.
If he'd taken care of himself and put in the gym work that the absolute elite do, how good would he have been? He was on par with Ronaldo and Messi for a little while in their teens imo. No reason he couldn't have been that good with the same attitude.
But like a few other British legends (Gascoigne, Best spring to mind) I will forever have that lingering "what if?" about him.
If he'd taken care of himself and put in the gym work that the absolute elite do, how good would he have been? He was on par with Ronaldo and Messi for a little while in their teens imo. No reason he couldn't have been that good with the same attitude.
It's not as if Shearer and Beckham brought home the World Cup....
Exactly. No one in england modern team stands out to be legendary.
It's likely a lot of people will think differently considering the fact he's Englands all time top scorer.
I think Rooney does, simply because no one has scored more goals than him in an England shirt.
He'll be legendary until someone scores more than 53 goals.
Does that mean a player can only be legendary if they win something with their country?!
Trying to argue that he won't go down as an English football legend is ridiculous - he's the most capped outfield player and has scored the most goals. If he's not a legend then who (outside of the 1966 team) is?!
Rooney had made 168 professional club appearances at 21, all for Premier League clubs. He also had nearly 40 England caps at that point.
Cantona had 70 professional appearances, all in France, and 15 of which were in the second tier. He also had at most 3 international caps. (He did have to do a bit of national service).
Neville had 69 professional appearances, and had at most 16 England caps.
Scholes had 56 professional appearances and no international caps.
Charlton had 86 professional appearances and at most 6 England caps.
Robson had 77 professional appearances, 19 of which were in the second tier, and no international caps.
Keane had 134 professional appearances, but 29 of them were in Ireland, and 10 international caps.
The only comparable one is Giggs, with 197 professional and 12 international caps.
Rooney has thus far played 755 games of professional football, at 31.
Neville had 687 when he retired at 36, Scholes had 784 when he retired at 38, Keane 743 when he retired at 34, and Cantona 485 when he retired at 31.
Charlton had 864 when he left United aged 35, and Robson 820 when he retired at 40. And obviously Giggs had over 1000.
However, by 31 Robson had fewer than 600, Charlton 600ish, and Giggs 640.
Rooney was doing at 16 what most weren't doing until they were around 21, and was doing at 18 what most were doing in their mid-20s. He's already played more games than a lot of players who played until they were older, and in terms of games played has already had a pretty long career. People forget he started at 16 so has already been playing 15 years.
Of the sticks to try and beat Rooney with, beginning his decline at 28/29 and dropping off at 30/31 is to be expected when you consider he broke through around 5 years before most do.
And most capped outfield player (and should he scrape 7 more caps, most of all time)
I completely agree! That's exactly what I'm saying, each of our 'legends' has their own unique set of circumstances so trying to draw parrallels between any of them doesn't prove a great deal imho.
I've had plenty of debates on various Rooney threads where I have argued that because of his 'miles on the clock' a rapid decline was pretty much inevitable and not something that he should be blamed for.
The debate that I have waded into on this occasion is based on one poster saying that the final third of Rooney's career was 'terrible' (a slight over exaggeration in my book, but I get what he's saying), and another poster saying 'well if his final few years were terrible then so were plenty of our other legends'. All I'm doing is disagreeing with that poster because as far as I'm concerned none of our other legends had such a rapid decline at such a young age, at a time when they were the best paid player, and the focal point of the team...whatever the reasons may be for this.
I agree that there are mitigating circumstances, but I genuinely can't think of another of our legends for whom you could legitimately argue that the final third of their career was as poor.
Personally i don't think he is. That's not to say i don't respect him for what he's done.
Who could forget that debut of his - it was truly unforgettable. The perfect way to announce yourself to a new club and its fanbase.
But the proceeding years after that debut, i just found myself admiring and having a huge amount if respect for him, but not really loving him as a Utd player; i just never really had that connection to him. Now, that’s not to belittle what he’s done for Man Utd. He’s won all there is to win at club level, and at his best he was a complete force of nature. Undoubtedly world class at his peak, and maybe just a shade under being the best player in the world for a time.
However, despite all that, i still can’t help but look at Rooney as a mercenary who treated playing for Utd purely as a job. Now that’s fine, he’s been hugely successful and has helped us win numerous titles and trophies, but when it comes to analysing whether a player has legendary status or not, i think it comes down to more than stone cold stats.
There’s a special connection to the club and its fans that you have to have, among many other intangibles, that, for me at least, he really doesn’t have. Again, i want to be clear, he’s been exceptional for us and i will always have a huge amount of respect for him, even if i don’t particularly like him all that much. Also, this really has nothing to do with his transfer requests. While it may not have helped matters, my apathy towards him was long established before those situations took place.
Who could forget that debut of his - it was truly unforgettable. The perfect way to announce yourself to a new club and its fanbase.
But the proceeding years after that debut, i just found myself admiring and having a huge amount if respect for him, but not really loving him as a Utd player; i just never really had that connection to him. Now, that’s not to belittle what he’s done for Man Utd. He’s won all there is to win at club level, and at his best he was a complete force of nature. Undoubtedly world class at his peak, and maybe just a shade under being the best player in the world for a time.
However, despite all that, i still can’t help but look at Rooney as a mercenary who treated playing for Utd purely as a job. Now that’s fine, he’s been hugely successful and has helped us win numerous titles and trophies, but when it comes to analysing whether a player has legendary status or not, i think it comes down to more than stone cold stats.
There’s a special connection to the club and its fans that you have to have, among many other intangibles, that, for me at least, he really doesn’t have. Again, i want to be clear, he’s been exceptional for us and i will always have a huge amount of respect for him, even if i don’t particularly like him all that much. Also, this really has nothing to do with his transfer requests. While it may not have helped matters, my apathy towards him was long established before those situations took place.
The fecking gaul to call a player who spent 13 years at a club, only leaving because he was no longer good enough, a mercenary.
How many players do we buy that stay 13 years! He's not a mercenary, this is madness. He could have gone to China and got more money, he could have stayed longer at Utd and got more money. The fact he's gone to Everton shows he has made an emotional decision, rather than one that's purely financial. I do wonder with some of the posters on here, who we actually have at the club, and who we have actually ever had who are deemed fit to wear the shirt?
The thing with Rooney, though, is that people will inevitably bring up his lifestyle: He's too fond of booze, fags and chips, etc. And he hasn't done himself any favours in that regard, of course - he's been caught at it a few times, as we all know.
How relevant the above actually is, however - well, I guess that's debatable. If Rooney had been anywhere near as unprofessional as some of his critics seemingly think, he wouldn't have remained a professional footballer at Manchester United for all those years - that just stands to reason. And his decline, such as it is, is 100% in line with what many predicted ten years ago: Not because he was unprofessional, but because he had already piled up an impressive amount of minutes at the highest level. It's very rare for players who become regular starters that early to keep playing top level football into their late 30s. Giggs was a freak and an exception.
He's been known to transgress, nobody will deny that, but on the other hand we have numerous testimonies from managers and team mates about his professional attitude as well - how driven he is when training, etc.
Hey, let's not pretend that he wouldn't have left earlier if it wasn't for the fact that he kicked up a huge fuss in order to get a very lucrative contract. As i said, he was great for us but i just think he just treated playing for United as a job, nothing more. In my opinion he has no real emotional connection to the fans or the club. I'm not the only one to think this, hence why he's such a divisive figure.
The apparent tail off of Rooney's career is vastly overstated in my opinion, and likely due to United's downturn in fortune during his final few seasons. I see a lot of "he was shit since 2011" which simply isn't true. He scored 27 league goals in 11/12, and was a good foil for van Persie in 2012/13. The whole thing seems to stem from Fergie looking like he was ready to start phasing Rooney out of the team after that season (starting Welbeck ahead of him, for example), which ignores that he still managed 17 league goals for an absolutely dire David Moyes side.
He wasn't great in van Gaal's first season, but certainly not as bad as some others. He was our top scorer after all (and no, this doesn't constitute stat-padding), but I'd say this is where his decline truly became noticeable. He started to look a liability in van Gaal's second season, but can't really be blamed for being given the captaincy the season before and van Gaal continuing to pick him. What's he supposed to do as club captain? I think he maybe should have done a Gary Neville-esque, "look, I'm not good enough," at the start of the season just gone, but that's very hard for a player to admit.
Had Rooney done exactly what he's done performance-wise over the last 3-4 seasons, but under a successful Ferguson, no-one would have batted an eye.
I think Rooney's problem has been that his game has relied heavily on his physicality, tenacity, and explosive bursts of pace. I've never heard anything about Rooney in training other than how hard he works, yet, for whatever reason, he's always appeared to struggle with keeping weight off. When you consider he's about five years ahead of most other 31-year-olds in terms of games played, and that his game relied on physical attributes, it's no surprise he had a sudden drop off.
People forget that Gerrard had a similarly sudden drop off. He was a key player for Liverpool in 2013/14's title push, and a complete liability when they finished 6th the season after. He then buggered off to the US for one last pay-packet and to play at a lower-level, and still didn't set the world alight there. It's not uncommon, particularly when players rely on physical attributes.
I don't blame him for sticking around until now - I can totally see why he wanted a crack under Mourinho, and think he has left at the perfect time. It's not his fault that successive managers continued to pick him when he was well past his best. Personally I think his natural physicality is the main factor (along with number of games played) in his decline - and have argued as much in different threads and had LOTS of people disagree vehemently.
The only thing I disagree on really is the impact of the team around him. I think his dynamism, burst of pace, ball control etc etc would still shine through in a poor side if he still had those attributes...unfortunately those days have gone (seemingly), but I wish him well at Everton.
In my eyes he is a legend of the club for the simple fact that he is the top scorer in our history and during our most dominate and successful period ever. However, i can understand people not being as warm towards him as they are towards other legends of the club as i myself have not warmed to him completely since he joined and especially after the last period and his two transfer sagas.
Still, thank you for the memories Wayne you will be remembered fondly.
Still, thank you for the memories Wayne you will be remembered fondly.
@Alex99 - a well measured post. Its very rare to have a career as long as Rooney's, and yes he's been a shadow of the player we loved over the last two years, and its giod to remind us that he's not been awful for half a decade. All players fade away, and we have been spoilt with Giggs and Scholes, who were expertly managed by Fergie - but they are a rare beast.
But everyone who thinks this is a muppet.
Rooney never once kicked up a fuss to get a more lucrative contract. He kicked up a fuss in 09/10 because we'd let Ronaldo and Tevez go, and replaced them with Owen and Obertan, the gap we'd plugged in midfield with Hargreaves was open again because of his injury problems, whilst Liverpool had just mounted their first title challenge in forever, Chelsea were still a very good team, and City were buying everyone under the sun. He was right to show concern for the direction the club was going in, and once he'd been reassured of it, he happily committed his future to the club. Contrary to popular belief, he never showed any interest in joining City, just that he didn't see his future at Old Trafford in the current circumstances.
And before you bring up 2013, it seems unlikely he ever even handed in a transfer request, given that he had no trouble admitting the first, and vehemently denied doing it in this instance. All stories stemmed there from a comment Fergie made in a post-match interview, which was then repeated by Scholes in an interview with Neville on Sky Sports. Chelsea made bid a bid, and apparently Arsenal, Real Madrid and PSG were interested, but at no point did Rooney say anything other than that he wanted to stay and it never happened.
He then stuck by the club and gave his all at a time when Vidic downed tools and announced he was leaving mid-season, Rio was busy moaning about chips, and the likes of van Persie were happy to slip into the background and leave through the back door.
People have made up their minds that Rooney was some sort of money-grabber who was only at United until something better came along, which completely ignores that he's not the only one to have contract disputes (e.g. Keane), and was likely the subject of at least minor interest from Europe's top clubs every summer since signing for us, until about 2013. If Rooney wanted to leave, he'd have gone. If you think he has no real emotional connection to the fans or club after spending 13 years there winning everything there was to win in English club football, becoming the club's top scorer, becoming England's top scorer and most capped outfield player, all with the support of tens of thousands of people each week, then you're deluded. Don't conflate your lack of connection to him with him apparently having a lack of connection to United.
Not shit, but around the turn of the year 2011-2012 is when I date the beginning of his decline back to. He kept on banging the goals in during the second half of that season, but the quality of his all round performances, and most noticeably his first touch, began to deteriorate. The decline was quite slow but steady after that until the second half of 14/15 which is when his form really started to plummet.
Of course he had that miserable first half of 10/11 which was probably as bad as anything we've seen the last couple of seasons, but he managed to rescue that season after the New Year.
So why did he sulk and refuse to celebrate with his teammates against Swansea?
The final third of Rooney's career was not poor. The last 3 years, sure, but the last third? No way.
To be honest with you, i kind of stopped reading what you said after you accused everyone who basically disagrees with you a muppet. Guess what, they're not muppets. He doesn't have that emotional connection with the fans or the club, in my opinion, that goes a long way to determining whether a player is a legend or not. It's not the only metric of course, but it's a big part of it. Football is a very emotional game, and the emotional attachment we have for our clubs and the players are a huge part of why we follow it; it's more than just stone cold hard stats.
Also, i really do regret bringing up the contract disputes, to be honest, as it has very little to do with my apathy towards the man. He IS a very divisive figure, and you can disagree with that all you want, but to call me deluded for thinking so, ironically points to you're delusion. You think he's a legend, that's fine, i'm not here to convince you otherwise.
But there are many fans who don't consider him a legend, hence why the question always comes up ad nauseam, and i think that some of their reservation towards him being called one are justified.
I'm also not questioning his desire and professionalism when on the pitch. He had pride in his job, and at his peak he done it exceptionally well, so that's not an issue. Anyway, we're obviously not going to get anywhere. Nothing i will say will convince you (not that i want to), and vice versa.
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Well it's all subjective, and it wasn't actually me that coined the 'last third of his career' statement. But it could be argued that he had poor spells for big chunks of the 10/11 and 12/13 seasons, so whilst there were still high points I think you could argue (I'm not saying you'd be right) that the latter part of his career was pretty disappointing - particularly in comparison to the first part.
Every aspect of Wayne Rooneys United career has been covered well in this topic. The uncertainty of whats happened behind the scenes will forever have an impact on this discussion. And that's probably why this topic was even created.
Personally I cannot place Rooney in the same category as Scholes, Giggs, Schmeichel and Cantona. Even though he has been an absolutely fantastic player for most of his career here, there's just something that doesn't feel right to me. And i'm unable to control that. Sorry,
Personally I cannot place Rooney in the same category as Scholes, Giggs, Schmeichel and Cantona. Even though he has been an absolutely fantastic player for most of his career here, there's just something that doesn't feel right to me. And i'm unable to control that. Sorry,
That's the thing though. Even though he is England and Manchester United's all time top scorer it would be fairly difficult to argue that he has been the all-time best player/striker. Rooney has had consistently average seasons with two/three stand-out seasons, and still somehow ended up with scoring the most goals. He's underperformed for England in almost every single major tournament he has played in. He comes nowhere close to matching the influence by some of the other "legends". Charlton and Hurst won a world cup, Lineker shot England into a semi-final while literally shitting himself, Greaves had a ridiculous games to goal ratio, and David Beckham played an extremely vital role in pushing England on in major competitions. Wayne Rooney on the other hand is mostly remembered for being a fantastic youngster in 2004, playing well for Sven, and from then on just being average. The potential he had in 2004 - my god - you could have sworn he would become England's greatest ever player by far. Yet that never happened and he just stuck around in the team long enough to outscore Bobby Charlton.
Now for Manchester United he has been considerably better, but never really the "stand-out" player. He's bee industrious, he's had good seasons and he's had average seasons, but nothing spectacular. In that time he's had plenty of opportunities to prove he's a legend. When Ronaldo left I think everyone hoped he could step up and prove he's one of the best players in the world. In the beginning it looked like he was going to do that, suddenly we have four years of "will he/won't he leave" on our hands, fluctuating performances and a seemingly "unhappy" Wayne Rooney. It came at the worst possible time as well. For years the executive decisions at the club were abysmal, and in that time we really needed our talisman to prove his greatness and lift the club, yet he didn't. With Giggsy, Scholes and Rio all retiring we needed a main-man that could carry Manchester United - carry on the spirit and attitude of the club - and that was supposed to be Wayne Rooney.
It's not his fault that our team fell into tatters, nor are the league positions his fault. It is his fault however that he did not show the stability in performances, attitude and commitment that we desperately needed at the time. Instead he largely became a liability, and a symbol of the "decline". Now, perhaps that is unfair to put on him, but legends aren't just "given" the title cause they stay long enough, they earn it.
Shocking I know, it was a onesie aswell , just to add insult..Yeah that's done it for me, disgusting
Sounds like you are describing a player like Ji Sung Park.
If you think he isn't a legend, I'm sorry you have problems. He's been committed to United for 13 years and broken the club record for most number of goals scored. It is simply ridiculous if that cannot satisfy you. I'm sad because i this time and age, the transfer market is so full of money laundering clubs and so it will be difficult to find such a committed lad. We would be real lucky to find a player like Rooney. I'm sad to see him go but i will back him forever.
Thank You Roo!
Thank You Roo!
That's fair enough.
Everyone can't connect with a player, but to call him divisive and mercenary is taking it too much. Especially the likes of people who call RvP a bigger Utd player than Rooney need to have a word with themselves.
Well I do love Park, but I meant more in the sense of Rooney having been consistently good and not team-carrying spectacular. I probably could have been a lot more clear on that. I genuinely think Rooney has been a very good player for us, but that there are a few elements about him that raise a few questionmarks when it comes to the term "legend". I will forever be grateful for some of the moments he has given us - don't get me wrong on that.
Well I do love Park, but I meant more in the sense of Rooney having been consistently good and not team-carrying spectacular. I probably could have been a lot more clear on that. I genuinely think Rooney has been a very good player for us, but that there are a few elements about him that raise a few questionmarks when it comes to the term "legend". I will forever be grateful for some of the moments he has given us - don't get me wrong on that.
Consistently good?
Yeah i suppose he wasn't bad for a few years there between 2006-12.
i totally agree, to call someone a mercenary that's been at a club 13 years is a bit extreme. At the end of the day all players do it as a job (they get paid etc).