What I am saying is for the vast majority of his Utd career he has been a forward, and in only three of those seasons he has scored more than 20 goals, therefore there is more chance of him NOT doing that this season than there is of him doing it.
10
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 41
- Goals
- 15
- Assists
- 6
- Yellow cards
- 5
- Status
The second striker position was ideal for Rooney. Barring the odd season fergie also saw it as his best position. Post ronaldo he was given the position up top for awhile but eventually we put chicharito or rvp infront of him. He wouldn't have scored more goals up top otherwise saf wouldn't have signed those players to play in front of him. Similarly ronaldo wouldn't score 100 goals if his starring position was central and not wide left. At the end od the day rooney drifts in and around the box and finds the right place to be. Apart from his stints on the right or left or central midfield, I don't think we hampered his goalscoring.
And I am telling you that he has only been a primary scorer in 2 of those seasons ( where he scored 34 goals) and this is only his 3rd season in that role.
You can't admit that Rooney has been deployed in many forward roles his whole career ( the majority being support roles) then criticise him for not scoring 20 goals every season, that makes no sense.
If you had made a prediction based on his recent form or the fact that he has regressed as a player overall - then your prediction would have made more sense.
Oversimplifying the forward role and then proceeding to criticise him based on that just reeks of laziness.
For an elite level player, even as a support striker you should get 20 goals more often IMO.
However Rooney is/was a very good player, and he brought a lot to the team regardless of his goalscoring record.
The issue now is that, is he bringing those other qualities to the team anymore? Debatable to say the least, and if not then obvioulsy if hes not scoring then thats a big issue.
Rooney was a powerhouse in those forward roles and we all watched him execute them really well, and he still managed to average 20 goals a season...
2004-05 17
2005–06 19
2006–07 23
2007–08 18
2008–09 20
2009–10 34
2010–11 16
2011–12 34
2012–13 16
2013–14 19
2014–15 14
...When he could easily have been deployed upfront with one primary task and scored a lot more. So to simply dismiss his goalscoring ability by comparing his numbers to a typical striker's numbers without actually taking positions and roles into account,just blatantly comparing them as 'forwards' really doesn't do him justice at all.
David Villa used to be a scoring machine; look at his numbers for Valencia and look at his numbers for Barcelona and then Atletico Madrid - he is the perfect example of a main striker who was deployed in other forward positions for Barca and as a result - he wasn't as lethal as he was for Valencia.... why? it's not like he significantly regressed as a player or anything, he just wasn't set with the primary task of scoring goals.
Let's check back at the end of the season and see who is right, I'd love it to be you because that would mean we've probably had a really good season, but I'm not holding my breathd
I'd agree. Some of Rooney's best football for us came in the second half of the 2010/2011 season when he was in the second striker position, but it was also when Rooney's goalscoring form began to improve again after a disappointing start to the season. Similarly, he played plenty of the 2011/2012 season as a second striker yet it's one of his most productive seasons for the club.
We arguably hampered his goalscoring a little bit when Ronaldo was the focal point of our team, but even then, I don't think it was by a significant amount. As you say, Rooney's a player who generally scores plenty anyway if he's played in an advanced position.
The average is a little bit skewed by his two best seasons though, which are significantly better than the rest of them. Granted, they're still impressive, but Rooney's only really had a couple of seasons for us where he was a formidable goalscorer.
Take away those two 34 goal seasons as the main striker( although I'm not sure why) and he still averaged 18 as the second scoring option - only one season below 15, but you would think he was averaging 7 goals with the kind of bashing he gets on here.
He's getting "bashed" because he's been rubbish so far this season when we've given him the main role upfront and are paying him mega-bucks.
An average of 18 is still impressive, admittedly, but it shows that Rooney's generally more of a consistent goalscorer than he is a brilliant one. He's never had the 7 goal type seasons where he's been completely terrible, but he's only really had a couple where he's managed to log a total significantly better than 20. Aguero, by contrast, has already hit 28 or more over a season on three occasions, despite having played in the PL for a lot less time than Rooney.
Rooney is obviously not just getting bashed for playing badly in August, a lot of people are just using it as an excuse to release some pent-up anger/aggression and manipulating facts to fit their narratives in the process.
How many player's get this much criticism after only a month of action?
The "Get behind your manager/team" bandits are the same ones not even giving a United legend the benefit of the doubt, it has come to a point where i think some people actually derive pleasure from his bad performances just so they can come here to bash him some more.
There's definitely angst against Rooney, no doubt. I'll admit to having some of that in the past but I've let that go. It's because of how he handled the "situations" he created, and at the end of the day that does affect fans. And he's not making it easier when he performs the way he has been.
Personally, the past is the past. But in the present, he deserves criticism and support. I hope he breaks every record and fast for the sake of the team, but at the same time the correlation between the importance the club has given him/his pay and his performances is pretty nuts.
Whilst i agree with you on your point about Aguero, i should also point out that he is usually the focal point of that Man City attack; even when he has a partner to compliment him - one he usually plays behind (like last season), he doesn't actually play to compliment the likes of Dzeko, they usually compliment him.
I also agree with your point about Rooney being a consistent goalscorer - and in this context - where i'm arguing about his goalscoring record, i truly believe if he had been the focal point of our attack for the last 10 seasons he would have scored a lot more goals, as he is really consistent at finding the back of the net - even during an average performance.
There's a reason why Rooney doesn't play that role - because he isn't that great at it. It's why Chicharito making runs behind and Rooney as the second striker worked so well, or Fergie felt the need to sign RVP. If Rooney was Aguero good as the guy right at the top SAF I'm not so sure Fergie would haves signed RVP, or LVG would have taken Falcao on loan.
I see no reason why crimes in the past should be referenced in every single conversation, especially in a thread about his performances in 2015/16.
His salary is really not an excuse for people to come here and spew hate - He deserves to be criticised, but i don't think any sane person would call the happenings in this thread 'mere criticisms'. Any little whiff of support is usually trounced by unnecessary hate.
You were discussing his past hence I mentioned it.
The hate I obviously don't agree with. The criticism I do.
Christ, we're not going down that tedious road upon which criticism of Rooney is 'bizarre' and praise for Rooney is 'sense' again, are we?
No. He didn't play that role because Fergie recognised that he would be more vital to the team(the team not himself) in the #10 role, people just ran with the notion.
A selfish Rooney would not have made that sacrifice and still thrived.
City also signed top strikers, they were also very much in the running for RVP's signature - so it's really not like they didn't try to give Aguero a world class partner who would probably have been the focal point.
Try and think of a top top 30 goal a season main striker who has been moved over to different positions to play behind a striker like Hernandez.
Well, i would also have to think of one who has been moved around his whole career now wouldn't i?
And the highest amount of league games Hernandez started in a PL campaign was 18.
No you wouldn't because Rooney hasn't been shafted as much as people make it out to be. He fills out in central midfield for 3 games and people go overboard about his sacrifices. And I'm making it easier for you. Try and name a few absolutely top strikers who have been playing as second strikers. From what I've seen it doesn't happen. And it's not even a slight on Rooney. For me, it's been the role that has suited his game well. He gets to roam around like he likes too, doesn't have to battle strong defenders and makes intelligent runs into the box and uses his nose for goal to be in the right place at the right time.
Positions Rooney has played for United
Striker
Right midfield
Right wing attacker
Centre attacking midfield
Centre midfield
Left wing attacker
Second Striker
I really don't think there has been a striker (which is what he was for Everton) who has been moved to so many positions in his career, the last striker who was moved to the supporting role(without being the focal point of the attack) is David Villa and that limited his abilities.
Rooney has perfectly executed that Totti role and yet he is being bashed for his goalscoring despite putting up similar numbers.
I welcome criticism, but when facts are skewed to fuel criticism - it becomes hate. What i find interesting is that, all this stemmed from a harmless prediction based on the fact that his primary task now is to score goals.
Yes, all those positions over 10 years. I'm not actually "hating" nor am I "criticizing". I'm saying we've used him correctly and if he was better as a centre forward he would have most likely played there more.
And i disagree - so this is where we call it quits.
Indeed it is.
facht.
Is the myth that Rooney has only played two seasons as the main striker still being peddled here?
The reason he hasn't been our main attacking striker consistently since Van Nistelrooy left is pretty simple: he's been given several chances from 2006-2012 to establish himself as our main 25 league goals a season man and could only manage it twice, averaging 11-14 League goals the other 3 seasons.
- What happened for half of the 06/07 season when Saha was injured?
- What happened 07-08 when he and Tevez both played as central strikers?
- What happened 08/09 when he and Berbatov both played as central strikers?
- What happened for the first half of 10/11 season before Hernandez replaced him?
The reason he hasn't been our main attacking striker consistently since Van Nistelrooy left is pretty simple: he's been given several chances from 2006-2012 to establish himself as our main 25 league goals a season man and could only manage it twice, averaging 11-14 League goals the other 3 seasons.
Good post. It's worth noting that even when Rooney's playing as a second striker, it's hardly been in some ridiculously deep role. He's still encouraged to go forward, and to score goals. The difference is that he generally has extra responsibilities to try and link the attack and defence, but that's what he tends to do anyway a lot of the time since he's naturally a player who works hard. Rooney's been played in positions for the majority of his career where you'd expect him to score plenty of goals, and be a key forward.
06/07 he had a strong finish to the season, compensating for the run in September/October when he went 10 games without scoring (Saha and Ronaldo carried the burden)
07/08 he got injured first day of the season with a metatarsal fracture. Our formation after he came back was rarely orthodox, yet he and Tevez get a lot of deserved credit for supporting Ronaldo
08/09 he had a strong first half of the season while Ronaldo was out recovering from surgery. Finished with 20 goals, and who could forget his role in that counterattack against Arsenal?
10/11 he only had 25 appearances in the league. My memory is hazy, so I can't comment too much on the league performance (was that around the transfer saga?) but he was brilliant in the Champions League, scoring in the quarterfinals, semifinals, and final, before we bent over to Barcelona's brilliance.
And in all that beyond the goals he always proved integral to our operations in the final 3. Even when Ronaldo was getting goals Rooney's role was always prominent. And it was recognized as such by SAF. Which explains why he was moved all over the pitch. That this is even debatable boggles the mind; we endured 2 fruitless years in Europe of Rooney always playing as a winger in a 4-5-1 for some odd reason.
It's hardly in some ridiculous deep role, but his main responsibility at times was not to get goals, but to facilitate our general play. Because of his talent we were able to get away with it. At his prime a few years ago, he proved he could take on that main role before he got injured against Bayern in 2010.
What's with everyone trying to pretend Rooney hasn't been that great over the years?
We're not. Rooney's played plenty of great football for us. He was superb in 2009/2010 and 2011/2012, while being a very good footballer who was key to our side in earlier years as well. It's more that a variety of excuses are being made for the fact that he's often not been a particularly brilliant goalscorer.
Played as an orthodox striker in 09/10, he yielded the output of a brilliant goalscorer, to the detriment of his other capabilities on the pitch. Why is it a reach to suggest that if he was placed up top from the beginning he wouldn't have more goals for us?
Not sure I completely agree with that - he had an excellent season in 09/10. While he was primarily playing as an out and out forward, his overall game was still very good and he added a lot to our side as a whole. He wasn't just a poacher who was hardly ever involved.
It's not too much of a reach to suggest that Rooney's output would be slightly higher if he'd been played on the wing or in central midfield less, but again, he's still played the pre-dominant portion of his career in a central role. Even when he's played as a second striker, he's still scored goals when on form. His best football for us probably came in the second half of the 2010/2011 season. He played in behind the striker, yet was still scoring. He played as a second striker for parts of the 2011/2012 season, yet - once again - still had one of his best seasons.
He wasn't a poacher, but compared to previous seasons, his role in the buildup dropped. He has played through the center a lot, but again, in the support of RvN and Saha. From 07-09 we capitalized on Ronaldo's effectiveness from a free role by constraining Rooney and Tevez.
It is fair to say Rooney hasn't been brilliant at goal scoring for most of his career, I will concede that.
06/07 - henrik larsson/alan smith
07/08 - striker
08/09 - left wing
10/11 first half - off field issues worst form of career, pretty sure he played as a number 10 as well
I agree it looks like LVG always chooses the complex solution to a simple problem. But maybe he has already tried the simple solution in training and it didn't work? We don't know.
Also, what is Mata's natural position? Mourinho played him in the wing very often and he was voted as their best player two seasons in a row playing that position so it is not as black and white as you make it to be.
Now, let us think of the reason why LVG doesn't play him there. One of them could be his lack of strength. Playing that position against lesser teams, Mata will definitely have to face a DM throughout the match who would try to cut him down. Do you think he has the strength to hold up the ball or has the trickery and the pace to beat his man? If he is marked out of the game then our whole plan of 4-2-3-1 will collapse.
On the other hand, if we really want to use his creativity and eye for the final ball, we need to give him time to pick his passes. In the current set up, one of the best ways of doing it is to play him on the right and ask him to drift in. The AM player will take the DM who is marking him away and that will give a lot of space in front of the defense for Mata to play a final ball in.
Mata got Chelsea's player of the year playing mainly as a #10. Mourinho only managed him for six months and played him a few games as a #10 and a few games as a winger and then sold him. #10 is clearly his preferred position and he has said so himself publicly.
He can play on the right but it only works in some games. Against Liverpool at Anfield last season he got tons of space and was fantastic. However it should be obvious to everyone by now that he is much less effective against defensive teams that park the bus. Against such sides you are more reliant on individual attackers being able to isolate and beat their marker to create chances. Mata, even vs the slowest defender, cannot do this. He can only come inside into an already congested area packed with defenders.
He can play on the right but it only works in some games. Against Liverpool at Anfield last season he got tons of space and was fantastic. However it should be obvious to everyone by now that he is much less effective against defensive teams that park the bus. Against such sides you are more reliant on individual attackers being able to isolate and beat their marker to create chances. Mata, even vs the slowest defender, cannot do this. He can only come inside into an already congested area packed with defenders.
No-one is saying Rooney wasn't a prominent player for us. The argument is whether he was an excellent goalscorer, which apart from the two seasons where the stars aligned for him, he has never been. He was moved all over the pitch because historically he's been a very good all round player, but he's never been great in any single position. Unfortunately for him in his favourite position at a top club you need a great striker, as he's never been able to consistently become this he's never made the position his own.
06/07 - Larsson started 5 Premier League games, Smith started 6. Also the latter was never a typical number 9 - Rooney played alongside him.
08/09 - Rooney has never played left wing all season. He played a handful of games wide left, but it sticks into the memory because of the CL final.
10/11 - Again this "number 10" isn't the case. Oscar is a number 10, Mata for Chelsea was a number 10. Apart from when Rooney played behind Van Nistelrooy and later for the season with Van Persie he has rarely been a "number 10". Fergie tried to recreate the Yorke-Cole partnership with 2 number 9's that are given licence to come deep (with Tevez, Berbatov & briefly the likes of Smith/Welbeck/Hernandez). This is no different to how Rooney played 09/10 when he scored 26 Premier League goals alongside Berbatov, or in 11/12 when he scored 27 league goals alongside Hernandez & sometimes Berbatov/Welbeck.
There is absolutely no difference between his position in the team 09/10 & 11/12 vs 06/07, 07/08, 08/09 & 10/11 - the only difference was his performances and his productivity. Rooney has almost never played as a lone number 9, even when he was at his best and most productive. He has played several seasons dove-tailing with another forward player, which is where he's at his most productive (as illustrated by 09/10 and 11/12).
My initial comment was half joking btw, but for some reason you took it too serious so decided to went along with it
This all makes sense, I do believe LVG trying things in training we can only guess, but if something doesn't work in matches no matter how great it may look in training you must find other solution.
When it comes to Mata it is more complex than I put it, just feel he would have much more options playing off the striker than playing on the right where he lacks pace and strenght to go past fullbacks. Playing him as number 10 doesn't mean he has fixed position and can't move along front line. He's very intelligent player who could pick pocket of spaces around the box and use his imagination to create something. Also his constant moving means he could drag marking DM out of his position which again opens space for our CMs to explore it. And since it's his preffered position he would feel much better playing it than being on the right.
He does drift in mostly due to his incompetence to play with right foot, what I don't understand why he doesn't use Darmians runs more often but chooses to cut in and then plays safe pass to CM. He's great player to watch but feel he's too far from real action when deployed on the right, perhaps it gives him more time to pick his pass, but it also gives more time for the defence to settle and block eventual move.
Really hope LVG will twist something within formation and tactics because we look too slow and static at times, shame really since we have personel to play much better football than we currently do.
- Status