Think with Rooney we are struggling to find him a position (brilliant player that he is) we need to move to a 433 and RVP is up top where do we fit in Rooney?
Wayne Rooney | 2012-14 Performances
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Why do we need to move to a 4-3-3?
Because our midfield gets over run every game?
Why not just improve the midfield, rather than sell or move around our best player?
And you realise we won the league last season right, despite not playing 4-3-3? Seems like you've pulled this one from your arse.
Pulled from my arse have you not been watching us the last few seasons? When was the last time we controlled any big match? 433 or some version of it is a must for us, I can think of many big game we got slaughtered in we really need to start flooding the midfield areas imo.
Aye I've watched us, we seem to have done alright.
I'm not even saying the midfield doesn't need to be improved because it blatantly does, but I just find you're bizzare obsession with 4-3-3 ridiculous.
We should sell Rooney because he can't play in a 4-3-3? The most mental thing I have ever read.
Virtually every top team plays 4-2-3-1 nowadays and in the Premiership none play a 4-3-3. I just don't know why you're so sure 4-3-3 is the way to go, to the extent that you would sell our best player and employ a formation that doesn't suit the current team.
Is it because Pep played it with Barcelona, and now Bayern?
I agree we should be playing a 4-3-3 particularly in the bigger games. It puts us at an immediate disadvantage when we play teams with a significantly better two man midfield or a midfield three. It's common knowledge that our midfield is our weak spot yet we play just two in there and persist with playing two centre forwards, which us quite stubborn given the context. The necessity to play Rooney behind Robin every game is a hindrance at times to the general play and imo contributes to the reason why we get overrun and often struggle to dominate games because for me there isn't enough in midfield. When Rooney was younger one of the things he used to be praised about was his versatility, adaptability and ability to play at a high level in several different positions, but Moyes came out and said a few weeks ago that he sees a Rooney as a striker and won't be playing him in midfield (or on the wing, I imagine). The fact that he will only play behind a Robin, or we risk upsetting him, leaves us with a rigid formation of 4-4-1-1/4-2-3-1 and little room for flexibility. He doesn't drop as deep or add as much as an extra man in midfield would.
What is "1 respect" and where can you spend it?Most teams play 4-2-3-1 though so if we play that then its still a modern tactic and moving with the times as you say. In that system he would need to play behind Van Persie and he can definitely play the role, no question. Last season he was playing even deeper at times in central midfield and looked absolutely fine, against Stoke for example he got MOTM - so he can play deeper.
Personally I'm of the view that right now it is virtually a 4-2-3-1 with Rooney playing that number 10 role behind the striker. Recently he seems to have stayed a bit further up the pitch which might have left us weak in the middle, but that is something he can change as he's played a more typical number 10 role before.
Is it worth selling our best player and significantly lessening our attacking threat, just so we can pack the midfield? Not at all IMO.
A better route would be to just improve the midfield with a better partner for Carrick. Two top centre mids behind Rooney is more than a match for other midfields, and it terms of tactics no different to the majority of top teams who play 4-2-3-1. Bar Pep and Bayern/Barca 4-3-3 isn't even seen much nowadays, there are far more popular formations.
Personally I'm of the view that right now it is virtually a 4-2-3-1 with Rooney playing that number 10 role behind the striker. Recently he seems to have stayed a bit further up the pitch which might have left us weak in the middle, but that is something he can change as he's played a more typical number 10 role before.
Is it worth selling our best player and significantly lessening our attacking threat, just so we can pack the midfield? Not at all IMO.
A better route would be to just improve the midfield with a better partner for Carrick. Two top centre mids behind Rooney is more than a match for other midfields, and it terms of tactics no different to the majority of top teams who play 4-2-3-1. Bar Pep and Bayern/Barca 4-3-3 isn't even seen much nowadays, there are far more popular formations.
It's not about what's popular and in fashion, but what gives the team the best balance. We mostly play 4-4-1-1 with Rooney noticeably staying higher up the pitch, with Moyes reluctant to ask him to drop. Our midfield isn't currently of the quality that we can expect to dominate games with two in the middle, especially against the top teams with better midfields than ours.
You should probably read the thread.
I was responding to this from Lawman "we need to move with the times and stop playing 2 in centre mid for me". My point is that a 4-2-3-1 is 'moving with the times', its the default formation currently and there is nothing wrong with it.
The point I'm making is that at the end of the day, regardless of what's behind/ahead of the times, popular/unpopular, the key thing is that our current midfield is weaker than a lot of other top European teams. When most of them play 4-2-3-1 they play an attacking midfielder behind the striker who is basically a third midfielder. When Rooney plays behind Robin, especially this season he has stayed higher up the pitch meaning that were lacking presence in midfield and therefore struggle to control and dominate games. City are the only team I can think of who currently play two strikers like us, but they have the solidity of Fernandinho-Toure in midfield. Our midfield lacks that solidity and stability and imo playing two strikers like we do instead of another midfielder/AM puts us at an immediate disadvantage.
Fernandinho-Toure is no more solid than Carrick-Fellaini.
Fernandinho is far more positionally disciplined than Fellaini
Carrick is more positionally disciplined than either.
Of course not. Has anyone said that?
However Fellaini/Carrick is no less solid than Fernandinho/Toure, which is what you were saying.
Yes it obviously is. How anyone can argue otherwise is crazy. Fellaini has been dispossessed 12 times in 3 games (Leverkusen, City and Shakhtar) and he didn't even play the full 90 mins in two of them. He is easily bullied off the ball. He let's his man run past him and floats in midfield rather than holding position. Added to the fact that Toure and Fernandinho have the ability to make bursting runs past people, driving forward with the ball, neither Fellaini or Carrick offer that (although Carricks passing is superior).
People on here were laughing at City for spending £30m in Fernandinho when we spend £2.5m less on Fellaini. One is operating effectively as a DM whilst the other looks completely out of his depth in that position.
The difference in solidity between Fellaini-Carrick and Fernandinho-Toure is big at this point in time.
I disagree, When was Toure last bullied off the ball and dispossessed as much as Fellaini has been? When did Fellaini last make surging forward runs with the ball past several people in midfield. Massive difference between the two, highlighted when Toure used his strength to take the ball of Fellaini a couple of times in the Derby and when Fellaini just let his man run right past him for two goals we conceded.
If you can't remember the last time someone just walked through City's midfield than have a look at midweek. Or look at the Cardiff game. Toure lacks positional discipline in just the same way and all the rest of that stuff is irrelevant.
Bayern would walk through anybody's midfield they are that superior right now.
But keep thinking Fellaini-Carrick is a strong midfield pairing. Carrick-Jones is stronger than Fellaini-Carrick.
But keep thinking Fellaini-Carrick is a strong midfield pairing. Carrick-Jones is stronger than Fellaini-Carrick.
Their positional sense was being compared, not their overall abilities as a CM and i agree with brwned, toure is as suspect as fellaini in that regard.
I think you've forgotten what point you were making. Everton walked through City's midfield a dozen times in the first half yesterday because Fernadinho is no holding midfielder and Toure's more interested in the attack.
On paper, maybe, but which games do you have in mind? We have conceded a lot of goals with those two in CM so far and looked terribly off the pace vs City.
Talk about ignoring the obvious. Have Carrick and Fellaini have been a dominant pairing?
The point I was making is that our midfield lacks the solidity to play just two in midfield against teams who play three or teams with better midfield pairings than us. I stand by that. Playing Rooney and Robin, with Rooney mostly staying high up the pitch as he has done in recent games means that we lack presence in midfield and it makes it more difficult to dominate games.
If Carrick and Fellaini is so solid we shouldn't be looking to strengthen CM in the near future should we?
The point I was making is that our midfield lacks the solidity to play just two in midfield against teams who play three or teams with better midfield pairings than us. I stand by that. Playing Rooney and Robin, with Rooney mostly staying high up the pitch as he has done in recent games means that we lack presence in midfield and it makes it more difficult to dominate games.
If Carrick and Fellaini is so solid we shouldn't be looking to strengthen CM in the near future should we?
And thus we fall into the same old predictable patterns of attacking play.
Rooney is described by his most staunch advocates on here as a world class No 10, yet if that were so we would surely have a more effective route to our forwards through the middle, no?
For a fair few seasons Fergie was happy to recognise the necessity of a third body in the centre of the park [or a player whose task was to move there when the situation warranted], for some odd reason and in defiance of all good sense this approach has been seen less and less, to the point where we find ourselves now.
It is all well and good for Theon to say that we should improve the midfield however we are presently in October, the window remains months away and we've seen what the various manager's preferred combinations have offered up thus far, if need be improvise as you say.
Rooney has ironically found himself in the position he was allegedly seeking from SAF, though it may have brought him some glory personally there is certainly the case for debating whether it is best for the team unit.
Don't be mental Nick, Rooney has been our best player this season. Of course Rooney like this is best for the team.
We struggle to dominate the midfield because our midfield isn't good enough, not because we play a 4-2-3-1.
What a Rooney and Van Persie partnership does is give us the best attack in the league.
And with a midfield that isn't good enough we should weaken it further by putting it at a numerical disadvantage against teams with better midfields? The best attack in the league won't always be able to pull of miracles every with a weak base behind it.
His improved acumen has been undeniably beneficial and his work rate particularly earlier on in proceedings something for the other players to acknowledge, however neither of these things are mutually exclusive to needed improvements elsewhere in his game. Ought not a necessary part of a No 10s job be to add diversity to our attack and enhance our play in central areas, are we seeing this to a high enough standard from Wayne?
As for BPOTS since August, i think that De Gea can make a reasonable claim to that too.
My post wasn't actually against Rooney. I spent the majority of the summer arguing that we should keep him. It's just Moyes can only play him behind Robin now because of the whole playing him out of position problems from last season. That makes us rigid in regard to formation. He stays high up the pitch now and I just think playing two centre forwards leaves the midfield lacking, especially against the top teams. I don't think its best for the balance of the team but Moyes seems keen not to upset Rooney and move him wide or get him to drop deeper to help out more in CM. I just think we would be able to control games more with a third midfielder rather than two centre forwards.
Whilst it isn't good enough to dominate the best teams like Bayern or Barcelona, adding an extra midfielder won't make a tiny bit of a difference against top sides. All that will happen is we lose Rooney and the consequent threat in attack. Adding Anderson to the side at the expense of Rooney or Van Persie is the worst idea I've ever heard.
You make out that we have this awesome central midfielder just waiting on the sidelines, bursting to come on and change the game. In reality its Anderson or Cleverley.. These are the players you want to drop Van Persie or Rooney for.
Our CM did OK over the two legs V Madrid. Ok they didn't boss it but they did a fine disciplined job. Welbeck and Jones were a big help to it in each game.
I didn't say Anderson was the answer or taking Rooney out of the team just that the formation is too rigid when Rooney plays behind RvP as we can only have two in midfield then. He could play beside Robin in a 4-3-3 or slightly behind Robin in a 4-3-2-1.
When Cleverley was added to the midfield of Carrick and Fellaini against. City it made a massive difference and I don't buy the bullshit that City stopped trying for a second. The change made the difference and we regained a grip on the game.
Of course they didn't stop trying, but they most definitely sat back 10 yards and played out the game. They were winning 4-0 for feck sakes.
Are you agreeing with me?
We played a 4-2-3-1 in both those games. It's LR7 who is convinced we need to change it.
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