First, Ronaldo and Messi aren't at the same level. Messi is up there with the very best players ever, Ronaldo has a lot to do to reach that level, not sure he could ever do it. Second, there is a gulf in class between Ronaldo and Rooney. At his best Rooney touches Ronaldo's level... if Ronaldo isn't at his best. Rooney is a world class player. Ronaldo is on the way of becoming an all time great. Messi could be the best ever.
Wayne Rooney | 2011/12 Performances
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First, Ronaldo and Messi aren't at the same level. Messi is up there with the very best players ever, Ronaldo has a lot to do to reach that level, not sure he could ever do it. Second, there is a gulf in class between Ronaldo and Rooney. At his best Rooney touches Ronaldo's level... if Ronaldo isn't at his best. Rooney is a world class player. Ronaldo is on the way of becoming an all time great. Messi could be the best ever.
Thats like comparing an apple with a banana
Apples and oranges apparently. I don't know why bananas get missed out, they are tasty buggers for a start and they are so different to both apples and oranges that actually have some similar characteristics.
I hate these comparisons.
You're saying that Rooney at the VERY TOP OF HIS GAME, which is scoring 3-4 goals, creating chances etc etc, is not going to be better than Ronaldo at his normal level, which is creating a few chances and probably scoring a goal.
It's stupid. Peter Crouch on his day can do that magnificent goal, and that's not the top of his game. The top of his game is when he'd get a very high passing percentage, playing a few through balls and score a hat trick. Again, the efficiency would be better. You can say that Ronaldo may 'look' a better player, but when you see a player doing stuff like that, you appreciate that not how hes doing it. Even over a whole match, he could look better.
Rooney is of course much better than crouch. His 'top' game would be higher than 90-95% passing completion, passing like Scholes and finishing each and every of his 2-4 chances, scoring belters, having a godly first touch etc etc.
Ronaldo, given the same circumstances and on his 'normal' level might score 1, pass at 85% and not give too many crossfield mega passes.
Read again.
actually, finneh said that Rooney at the top of his game is the only one who touches Messaldo (see what I did there), and that's complete bollocks quite frankly.
Rooney could only dream of being the player Ronaldo is.
Iniesta is far better on a consistent basis, but I think if you watched Rooney's top few games they'd surpass the former's. Again the problem with Rooney is how rarely he hits this level or anywhere near this level.
I agree that Rooney's best touched Ronaldo's level, which is what I said.
For what it's worth I disagree re: Ronaldo and Messi. I feel both will go down in the top bracket of players ever to play the game. Messi will probably end up at the very top of that elite list. I actually think people would be saying Ronaldo has a chance to go down as the best player ever to play the game if Messi weren't around.
Again Rooney's problem is the very, very top of his game happens once in a blue moon. I'm not saying Rooney can do the same things when he's at the top of his game, just touches the same level.
Obviously.
i don't think rooney's arsed to be honest.
for sure ronaldo looks at messi and that drives him to try to overtake messi. likewise while messi comes off as more 'laid back', there have been many reports suggesting how he wouldn't let pep rest him because he wanted to score more than ronnie.
I just don't think rooney cares all that much regarding how much better ronnie and messi are. I don't think that's a source of motivation for him. Obviously he wants to do well, but he isn't singularly focused like ronnie is. i doubt he dreams of ronnie or thinks about his performances at all.
So you reckon Ronaldo could be on route to surpassing Maradona, Pele and Zidane?
Rooney's build meant he was never going to be a Messi or a Ronaldo.
At this rate he'll end up in the tier just below them, with the Van Bastens and Beckenbauers...
nope, good but not that good. ronaldo is an amazing athlete who is obviously very talented, but those players are amongst the most talented ever! i don't think Ronnie has quite that level of talent imo.
The comparison i am personally struggling with is Zidane or Iniesta?
nope, good but not that good. ronaldo is an amazing athlete who is obviously very talented, but those players are amongst the most talented ever! i don't think Ronnie has quite that level of talent imo.
The comparison i am personally struggling with is Zidane or Iniesta?
Agree with you. That seemed to be the implication of the post I was responding to tho.
Is Beckenbauer below them? Many consider Beckenbauer to be the greatest German player ever which puts him ahead of some fecking good players!
For me there are about a dozen players who it comes down to personal preference,or age groups. It's hard to define, especially without the type of extensive coverage for the older players, that we have enjoyed for the likes of Fat Ronaldo and Zidane!
If Ronaldo does nothing against Spain tomorrow I wonder what you will all be saying.
Duncan Edwards was better than Maradona and Pele. Not that I have anything tangible to base this on. Just blind loyalty.
Forget Maradona and Pele for a minute, how many people really think he's on course to surpass his namesake Ronaldo or his countryman Eusebio?
He'll go back to being a shit version of Pedro
What are you basing this on though? Have you seen Iniesta's top few games where he's at the peak of his game, Or are you just guessing? We all clearly watch Rooney a lot more than Iniesta, so the comparison seems a bit unfair really. Even then, he scored the winning goal in the WC final and he dominated us in the CL final in 2010, just to name 2 games.
To be fair, he's surpassed his namesake Ronaldo on the pitch by some distance... in my opinion. I feel like God gave us Cristiano to show what Ronaldo would have become without injuries. As far as greatness and accomplishment is concerned, I'm not sure as Cristiano has really suffered under Messi.
I agree.
Am not so sure about that. The original Ronaldo was much better to watch. Was very effective too. Cristiano does score ridiculous number of goals but has lost the wow factor that you'd associate with the brazilian version.
I'd be torn between the 2 as to which one's better but if i got a chance to see either live at their best, i'd surely watch the Brazilian.
I'd be torn between the 2 as to which one's better but if i got a chance to see either live at their best, i'd surely watch the Brazilian.
This is a bit surprising to me...
The most well connected teammates passing wise on England the other night were Hart to Carroll. In other words England had no midfield worth mentioning. I have no idea why Rooney is getting stick when the entire England team can not keep possession of the ball. Pirlo who had an off night still completed more passes than the entire English midfield. As long as England ignores players like Scholes and to a lesser extent Carrick, they will not compete. I mean seriously Spain and Germany have TWO... 2... dos... Mids whose whole job is to keep the front 4 running... and England has a bunch of stiffs.
Blame Rooney, sure, jump on the band wagon. He certainly had an off night, but how is that surprising when the entire England squad was dire... here look at some numbers...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/jun/25/euro-2012-statistics-damn-england
30 Cristiano Ronaldo has had more shots in his first four games at Euro 2012 than the entire England squad (29) had at the tournament
20 Italy had more shots on target in their quarter-final match than England had in total in their four matches in Ukraine
88 England conceded more than twice as many shots to France, Sweden, Ukraine and Italy than they had against those teams
39 England had on average 39% of the possession in their four games, their lowest figure at a tournament since Euro 1980
29 Ashley Young and James Milner put in 29 crosses in the four games. Only three reached an England team-mate
300 England averaged 300 passes per match. The four semi-finalists have averaged 479
15 England completed only 15 passes in the 15 minutes of the second period of extra-time against Italy
18 England's most successful passing combination against Italy was the goalkeeper Joe Hart to the substitute striker Andy Carroll
115 Andrea Pirlo had more passes against England than England's four starting midfielders had against Italy
18 Mesut Ozil has created 18 chances in Germany's four games. Steven Gerrard, England's most prolific chance creator, has made six
102 England ran on average 102km in their four matches. Italy ran 7.5km further on average per match
86 England have had the most tackles in the tournament, with Steven Gerrard's 18 the most of any player
29 England have blocked the most shots at Euro 2012, 17 more than Italy, 19 more than Germany, 21 more than Portugal and 24 more than Spain
The most well connected teammates passing wise on England the other night were Hart to Carroll. In other words England had no midfield worth mentioning. I have no idea why Rooney is getting stick when the entire England team can not keep possession of the ball. Pirlo who had an off night still completed more passes than the entire English midfield. As long as England ignores players like Scholes and to a lesser extent Carrick, they will not compete. I mean seriously Spain and Germany have TWO... 2... dos... Mids whose whole job is to keep the front 4 running... and England has a bunch of stiffs.
Blame Rooney, sure, jump on the band wagon. He certainly had an off night, but how is that surprising when the entire England squad was dire... here look at some numbers...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/jun/25/euro-2012-statistics-damn-england
30 Cristiano Ronaldo has had more shots in his first four games at Euro 2012 than the entire England squad (29) had at the tournament
20 Italy had more shots on target in their quarter-final match than England had in total in their four matches in Ukraine
88 England conceded more than twice as many shots to France, Sweden, Ukraine and Italy than they had against those teams
39 England had on average 39% of the possession in their four games, their lowest figure at a tournament since Euro 1980
29 Ashley Young and James Milner put in 29 crosses in the four games. Only three reached an England team-mate
300 England averaged 300 passes per match. The four semi-finalists have averaged 479
15 England completed only 15 passes in the 15 minutes of the second period of extra-time against Italy
18 England's most successful passing combination against Italy was the goalkeeper Joe Hart to the substitute striker Andy Carroll
115 Andrea Pirlo had more passes against England than England's four starting midfielders had against Italy
18 Mesut Ozil has created 18 chances in Germany's four games. Steven Gerrard, England's most prolific chance creator, has made six
102 England ran on average 102km in their four matches. Italy ran 7.5km further on average per match
86 England have had the most tackles in the tournament, with Steven Gerrard's 18 the most of any player
29 England have blocked the most shots at Euro 2012, 17 more than Italy, 19 more than Germany, 21 more than Portugal and 24 more than Spain
Well I'm talking about who's the better player on the pitch, its a pretty straight forward like for like comparison between the two and I honestly don't think its a contest. And understandably so as the Brazilian Ronaldo didn't get to fulfill his potential.
This doesn't explain how poor Rooney was when he had the ball. If its an excuse for Rooney that his teammates were shit on the ball, then why can't it be for Carroll? Why can't he say "don't blame me, I was surrounded by players that couldn't do anything of note with the ball other than give it away?" Or Young, or Gerrard, or Parker? You can go on and on with everyone excusing the shit they produced by pointing to the shit others produced and pretty soon you'll have a whole pile of shit with no one to blame for it.
What he would have become?
Have you forgotten how incredible Ronaldo actually was before he got injured? His dribbling ability, his acceleration, his finishing with either foot. He used to just ghost past players as if they were not there! For me the greatest striker ever, bar none!i have to say i have seen a lot of players in my time, but none have been as explosive and exciting as the young Ronaldo. Look at his goal record at different clubs, in different leagues at such a young age. He was unstoppable in every league he played in, scoring for fun. You also have to consider how strong each league was back then, compared to now. The overall standard of players in the top teams was far higher too imo. Every single top nation could boast at least half a dozen WC players! Even England!
I just don't see Cristiano being on that level, not on talent or achievement. He has scored a lot of goals, and he has been absolutely fantastic, but for me the original Ronaldo just had that extra special something, that spark of genius that puts him as one of the greatest ever on any stage imo anyway. Up there with Pele, Best, Cruyff, Beckenbauer and Maradona in the highest possible standing.
My point was the whole team was crap... don't single out Rooney when the entire England team averaged one pass per minute for the last 15 mins.
You said it shouldn't be surprising that Rooney was crap when he is surrounded by crap... that's different. In addition, Rooney is supposed to be the world class one, he's supposed to be the one person that doesn't display crap, he was waited for and taken to the tournament even if he missed the first two games, and that's why he takes a lot of the blame and the most questions are asked of him. There's nothing unfair or unusual about that, it happens to every star and they either step up or fail.
@apotheosis I agree with you on the original Ronaldo, he was a phenomenon who was comfortably a better player then the current Ronaldo. However I think you may have the rose tinted glasses on RE: the leagues back then. I think the standard is just as high now, I also don't remember anytime since about 1970 that England have 5 or 6 world class players.
Turned into an excellent finisher. He used to be a shit finisher in his early United days. He would often go for power and blast straight into the keeper's chest.
Take his second goal against Liverpool at OT. Valencia plays him in. Rooney has time and space. Instead of hammering the ball past Reina Rooney places it between Reina's legs in an Ole-type finish.
Rooney also went from never scoring headers to being one of the best around for a short player.
It will interesting with addition of Kagawa. Will Rooney play as lone striker supported by Kagawa in tough away games?
Will Rooney and Welbeck be partners in most home matches?
Will Kagawa's addition mean Rooney is no longer needed to drop and pick out other forwards?
Regardless, Kagawa will help Rooney's game IMO. Or I hope.
Take his second goal against Liverpool at OT. Valencia plays him in. Rooney has time and space. Instead of hammering the ball past Reina Rooney places it between Reina's legs in an Ole-type finish.
Rooney also went from never scoring headers to being one of the best around for a short player.
It will interesting with addition of Kagawa. Will Rooney play as lone striker supported by Kagawa in tough away games?
Will Rooney and Welbeck be partners in most home matches?
Will Kagawa's addition mean Rooney is no longer needed to drop and pick out other forwards?
Regardless, Kagawa will help Rooney's game IMO. Or I hope.
Gazza, Beckham, Ince, Seaman, Shearer, Scholes.
I am surprised you think the leagues now are as strong as they were then. Ajax were CL winners, Dortmund, Juve soon after. The Italian league was the strongest league in Europe. The only main league that clearly wasn't as strong then, as it is now, is ours!
I look back to the 90's and every big team in europe was packed with top quality players. Contrast the quality of the Dutch, Italian, French, English, Czech, Croatian, Swedish, Norweigen, Irish, even the Scottish national teams,(
) then to now, and look at the quality of the players they had playing for them. Only Spain have a clearly better team now than then. In some cases it is quite striking how poor quite a few of today's National teams are in comparison.Nowadays you are lucky if you can pick more than 2 world class players from any of the big European nations, (bar Spain of course, and possibly Germany) and none are of the calibre of the comparable players in the late 90's. Italy - Pirlo and buffon are both pretty much from that era! Dutch - Robben, Sneijder, RVP, Zlatan for Sweden, Modric for Croatia, France- Benzema? England - Cole, Rooney. Struggling yet? I am! Most teams have a star man, or maybe 2, but the supporting cast is where you see the clear drop in quality.
Top players are nowhere near as plentiful, nor the amount of top teams, therefore the leagues standards are lower generally, and the national teams and the generalquality of the players representing them compared to a few years ago support that in my view.
It doesn't matter. Matches, surpasses or whatnot.
The fact is, a top European player playing at their top level is going to be better than Ronaldo on his 'normal' level by a mile.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...s-Wayne-Rooney-only-understands-Scottish.html
ETA: Double post, whoops. But seeing as it's here in full now, i'll leave it if you don't mind.
hence why he wanted to leave he would never try to continent. could you imagine him trying to play outside aul blighty?
hence why he wanted to leave he would never try to continent. could you imagine him trying to play outside aul blighty?
Someone with Capello's list of achievements really should be staying above such things. Had he wished to make the case that there is a disparity in Rooney's performances at club and international level he could have done so, this on the other hand is simply catty.
Though it puts him in the media spotlight for a day or two, perhaps that is enough.
A bit funny but unnecessary from Capello
A bit funny but unnecessary from Capello
I'd say you're both right.
It's hard to disagree with Capello really as Rooney constantly under performs for England. However, Rooney's hardly the only one to consistantly under perform in an England shirt so there's clearly more too it.
I suspect we'll see much better from Rooney for England in the coming years when he's backed up in midfield by the likes of Gerrard, Cleverley and Wilshere and hopefully played in the correct position.
I suspect we'll see much better from Rooney for England in the coming years when he's backed up in midfield by the likes of Gerrard, Cleverley and Wilshere and hopefully played in the correct position.
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