Wayne Rooney | 2011/12 Performances

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I don't think that you can read too much into international tournaments . Ronaldo and Messi have also flopped on the same stage and Wayne wasn't even that bad.

That said, Messi is the only 70 goal a season player that can have a 'good tournament' in the eyes of his fans despite getting only one assist and no goals in 5 games.

If Waz or Ronaldo don't score at least 4 goals then they are chastised by all comers.
 
Probably not but how many players in world football in his position/role would you swap him for?

He's not in the top five strikers in the world in my opinion, and that's even with a relative lack of high quality strikers at the moment. Nani was beat with the inconsistency stick on here for a long time, I'm afraid Rooney has to get the same treatment too.
 
As pointless and vague as the phrase "world class" is, Wayne Rooney is clearly it. That shouldn't even be up for debate. Ask any of the managers of the best teams in Europe and they'd all identify Rooney as one of the best strikers around. Fecking ridiculous the way fans of his own club continually fail to appreciate how good he is.

Yes, he was poor in the Euros (although I thought he was one of the best - well, least shit - performers against Italy) but he was never going to thrive playing as a striker in a team that never once looked like getting a foothold in the centre of the park. Unlike the rest of his team-mates, however, Rooney had a decent excuse for being off the pace, having missed out on all the recent warm-up games and the opening games of the group. He performed in this tournament like someone who hadn't been involved in a competitive game for several weeks because, well, he hadn't been involved in a competitive game for several weeks. Who's have thunk it?
 
He's not in the top five strikers in the world in my opinion, and that's even with a relative lack of high quality strikers at the moment. Nani was beat with the inconsistency stick on here for a long time, I'm afraid Rooney has to get the same treatment too.

Name the five who you think are better just for the sake of debate.
 
Robin Van Persie would usually make that list. I wonder if he's suddenly dropped off after a handful of poor games for his national team?

Well exactly. Seems to be plenty of strikers out their who excel at club level but have been poor on the international stage for some reason.

Look at benzema. Look at Argentina and their 5+ quality strikers in the 2010 world cup, 2011 South American Championships.

Ronaldo has played well the last few games after a poor run(against teams of quality)
 
Do people think there are players who just play well every single game no matter the opposition? If Rooney has about three games in a row where he doesn't find the net everyone forgets all the good work he's done at United.
 
Villa, Aguero, Van Persie, Benzema off the top of my head, that's only four but there are numerous other who could make a case such as Ibra etc. Rooney's a brilliant player by all means but his bad games more than rival his good.

This isn't based off the Euro's either, this has been apparent for a while now for me. Everyone gets so precious when it's Rooney.
 
The problem with Rooney is that he is more or less useless when he's at his worst, but one of the very finest in the world when he's on form. It is worrying that a player who is supposed to enter his prime years is starting to look less of the striker we know he can be, and more of a striker that we hate to see.
 
Villa, Aguero, Van Persie, Benzema off the top of my head, that's only four but there are numerous other who could make a case such as Ibra etc. Rooney's a brilliant player by all means but his bad games more than rival his good.

This isn't based off the Euro's either, this has been apparent for a while now for me. Everyone gets so precious when it's Rooney.

Seem to me he is a big game player though. His record in the big games for United is quite good.

I dont think he gets as much credit as Ronaldo did for this. When Ronaldo scored in big games for United and did little else yet he was regarded as being the man.



The problem with Rooney is that he is more or less useless when he's at his worst, but one of the very finest in the world when he's on form. It is worrying that a player who is supposed to enter his prime years is starting to look less of the striker we know he can be, and more of a striker that we hate to see.

How many big games have United/England won when Rooney has been at his worst? You have to factor in the supply to him in the last third of the pitch. usually when Rooney is playing poorly the rest of the team is quite poor also. Its a team game at the end of the day.

I wonder did the argies put most of the blame at the feet of Messi for the poor showings in the last two major championships?
 
Villa, Aguero, Van Persie, Benzema off the top of my head, that's only four but there are numerous other who could make a case such as Ibra etc. Rooney's a brilliant player by all means but his bad games more than rival his good.

This isn't based off the Euro's either, this has been apparent for a while now for me. Everyone gets so precious when it's Rooney.

if JM was allowed to buy rooney tomorrow, benzema would be benched.

Those five are around the same level as rooney but 99% of managers would take rooney over them IMO.

Mind you, i do think he is a shithouse that isn't as professional as ronnie and has some glaring deficiencies in his game.

But given his age, talent, and body of work..over a course of a full season he is slightly above those 5.

That said, I do strongly believe Aguero can and will become better than rooney and out of those names mentioned has a higher ceiling.
 
Seem to me he is a big game player though. His record in the big games for United is quite good.

I dont think he gets as much credit as Ronaldo did for this. When Ronaldo scored in big games for United and did little else yet he was regarded as being the man.
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He's a big game player for the most part yes, but his game has significantly changed over the last few years for obvious reasons. He's been scoring goals yes, but there are plenty of players who simply score goals and don't get all the plaudits on here. Rooney's more prolific due to better positional sense, which is at the expense of the things that made him a great player; his shooting from distance, his passing, running with the ball and general control it seems.

I'd be interested in seeing how many of his goal last season were penalties and tap ins.
 
Yes Rooney was short of match fitness, but to be fair, whos fault was that? He got himself stupidly sent off......again.

But the criticism of him based on this tournement is ridiculous. You could have put Ronnie, Messi, Cruyff or best in Waynes shoes and they would have struggled to drag a performance from the shower of shite that was England.
 
if JM was allowed to buy rooney tomorrow, benzema would be benched.
Those five are around the same level as rooney but 99% of managers would take rooney over them IMO.

Mind you, i do think he is a shithouse that isn't as professional as ronnie and has some glaring deficiencies in his game.

But given his age, talent, and body of work..over a course of a full season he is slightly above those 5.

That said, I do strongly believe Aguero can and will become better than rooney and out of those names mentioned has a higher ceiling.

That may be so, but I can't help but feel he's so highly rated because of what he used to be and his past exploits, not what he is at present.
 
At United, Rooney has got an excellent set of passers including Scholes, Carrick, Valencia, Nani and others who create chances and get him in good positions to score. In that sense, he is a good finisher and when on form can be deadly. However, he does not have enough technique to be as creative as a Pirlo or a Scholes and he cannot dribble and beat his man anymore.

In a team like England where he needs to constantly drop deep and is tempted to actually create something as opposed to United where he can rely on one of the players mentioned above, his weaknesses are more apparent and he seems to be an ordinary player.

When we get the ball in our 1/3.

We pass the ball around with our defenders and

a) Have a full back and winger link up, and then get the ball upfield, generally resulting in a cross

b) Get the ball to Carrick / Scholes, who then play a brilliant long ball to either Rooney or either of the 2 wingers. If Rooney gets the ball, he generally gets the ball to a winger with a long crossfield pass (generally Valencia last season), who then crosses it in. Rinse repeat, till someone heads/foots it in.
The scorer is also generally Rooney.

It's the reason why Rooney had so few assists last season, despite playing in the hole; he mainly received a pass from our DLP's, and then gave it to Valencia/other winger, and then scored from the cross (Noone actually scored too many goals aside from him).

Few can be as creative as Pirlo etc. Rooney's lack of through balls hurts him in the creative sense; he's generally a top passer when picking out the winger (like Scholes, but less consistent), especially compared to other forwards.
Furthermore, Rooney's finishing is incredibly clinical. He generally doesn't beat his man, but he can escape his man when he does his 'first touch away from the opposition' in midfield etc. He's also making the defence shit their pants when he runs at them; they back off so fast so that when he picks out our pacey wingers, they aren't ahead of the defensive line.

He's so useful to us, yet all that seems to be undone by 2 below-par performances at Euro 2012, where he admittedly was not match fit, and had a team giving him scraps.

Do you think RvP had a great tournament? He missed like 5 or more 1v1's apparently? Do you not think strikers are inconsistent? Because Danny Welbeck is hellishly inconsistent, whereas Rooney had 35 goals and they were spread around quite a bit. People's complaints of him were 'he scores when he's playing badly.' Well, uh, we judge other strikers chiefly by their scoring record; i doubt many on the caf follow Aguero, RvP, Benzema, Rooney and Ibra at the same time. When rooney plays bad, he still ends up scoring. He's also a lot better at passing when this happens than you give him credit for.

It's just his reputation is to be picking out the man every time; it just doesn't happen if you're a forward. The amount of times Welbeck misplaced a pass or got caught on a dribble was multitudes higher; yet he's forgiven for being young or something. I'm sorry, but it's very hard playing in the final 1/3; if rooney drops into midfield he'll have a lot more time and space and errors will reduce significantly.

It astounds me that people think there are several other strikers better than him; the fact is Rooney's either scoring or distributing incredibly well. And I don't know many strikers who distribute better than him, personally. Maybe Messi. Ibra's rather good at that too. But the others? Not a spot on him.

As a complete player, rooney is very good at a lot of things. Other strikers are less complete. We judge him on so many criteria that of course he's going to be inconsistent one way or the other. Maddening. We have a top quality striker for whom the sky is the limit, yet you don't want to appreciate it.

I wonder what you're going to say in 3-4 years time, when, say, Welbeck and Chicharito are leading the line. They are very good strikers in themselves, but you see the difference in quality between players, and Rooney, again, is one of the few players whose skill just blows me away, and feel I'm witnessing a special special player.
 
Don't think he was anywhere near as bad last night as some are making out.

Played a part in 2 of England's best moves of the match, the interplay for the Welbeck chance and was at the hub of everything in the play that ended with his own overhead kick.

Not brilliant by any means, but nowhere near as awful as some are making out. Excellent pen too.
 
That may be so, but I can't help but feel he's so highly rated because of what he used to be and his past exploits, not what he is at present.

Nothing to do with the fact that as a striker, his main job is to score goals, and he scored 35 goals last season? People are expecting him to be the main creator and the main goalscorer, like he isn't Lionel messi. Sure he gets a poor touch when off form, bt that is just that, bad form. You see the other strikers and you just don't notice them at all. With Wayne we still know he's playing, but the stuff he tries isn't coming off.
All you have to do us look at his goalscoring record for us to realize that he is clearly world class. And he's definitely a big game player.
 
Yes Rooney was short of match fitness, but to be fair, whos fault was that? He got himself stupidly sent off......again.

But the criticism of him based on this tournement is ridiculous. You could have put Ronnie, Messi, Cruyff or best in Waynes shoes and they would have struggled to drag a performance from the shower of shite that was England.
True that he was short of match fitness so I beg the question should Roy have picked him for this game? unfortunatly it seems that Roy is another FA yes man. Englands two best games were without Rooney but it seems that he is to big a player to be dropped. Why is that? Whilst we have a manager whom is afraid to make big/ controversial decisions then England will never go anywhere. Expect more of the same. Rooney would have been a great player to bring on for a half hour or so.
 
if JM was allowed to buy rooney tomorrow, benzema would be benched.

Those five are around the same level as rooney but 99% of managers would take rooney over them IMO.

Mind you, i do think he is a shithouse that isn't as professional as ronnie and has some glaring deficiencies in his game.

But given his age, talent, and body of work..over a course of a full season he is slightly above those 5.

That said, I do strongly believe Aguero can and will become better than rooney and out of those names mentioned has a higher ceiling.

Would he be? I am not sure you can be certain about that. United fans like to think it would be like that but Benzema keeps out another excellent striker in Higuain for big matches.
 
ZonalMarking analysis:

Rooney was much sloppier, and after half an hour when Pirlo’s dominance had become clear, Joe Hart was clearly heard shouting at Rooney to pick him up. Hodgson clearly wanted Rooney to do this, because for much of the game Rooney could be seen half-heartedly jogging towards Pirlo. It was reminiscent of the 2011 Champions League final, where he started off marking Sergio Busquets, before gradually leaving Manchester United outnumbered in midfield.

It’s odd that Rooney’s tactical indiscipline has become such a problem – only a few years ago his willingness to sacrifice his own attacking game for the good of the team was reagrded as one of his main qualities. England could have done with someone like Rooney’s club teammate, Park Ji-Sung, who did a superb job on Pirlo in 2009/10 – Urby Emanuelson did something similar for Milan earlier this year. Leaving Pirlo free was suicidal, and he completed over 30 more passes than any other player.
 
Nothing to do with the fact that as a striker, his main job is to score goals, and he scored 35 goals last season? People are expecting him to be the main creator and the main goalscorer, like he isn't Lionel messi. Sure he gets a poor touch when off form, bt that is just that, bad form. You see the other strikers and you just don't notice them at all. With Wayne we still know he's playing, but the stuff he tries isn't coming off.
All you have to do us look at his goalscoring record for us to realize that he is clearly world class. And he's definitely a big game player.

There are plenty of strikers who simply score goals such as Gomez and Cavani, yet they aren't raised up a pedestal with Rooney are they?

You brush off his 'poor form' quite easily as if it's the same as everyone else. I'm sorry but I've never seen a supposedly world class player completely forget how to control, pass, shoot and just generally forget how to play football so regularly.

No point arguing this any more though, I've put my opinion forward. I'm out.
 
Its such a shame that he has lost the ability he had when he was 18, and could not apply what he has now to that athleticism.

He finally has the mental game down, but his agility and mobility is not a touch on what it was when he was younger. He really struggles to beat a man, it really is quite amazing.

If only he still had that bit of pace / excitement in his game he could be 1 of the best in the world, but i think the injuries have hampered him majorly.

He is like torres without the loss of confidence on certain days. Hope he can have a real rest now and prepare for the season coming.

I've never heard such fecking bollocks in all my life.
 
There are plenty of strikers who simply score goals such as Gomez and Cavani, yet they aren't raised up a pedestal with Rooney are they?

You brush off his 'poor form' quite easily as if it's the same as everyone else. I'm sorry but I've never seen a supposedly world class player completely forget how to control, pass, shoot and just generally forget how to play football so regularly.

No point arguing this any more though, I've put my opinion forward. I'm out.

You live in a fantasy world.
Messi missed 2 open goals after beating the GK against Arsenal, and if it wasn't for a blatantly stupid red card, could've cost Barca in 2011.

GK's and strikers have it very tough. Theirs are the finest margins, and in the lowest time to react and execute what they want to do. Ronnie has missed a goal from less than 6 inches. I'm sure he's done it more than that.

Pressure cookers make big mistakes out of people.
CR7 is as world class as you can get; how many 1v1's he miss for Portugal already? Yeah.
 
Lost the ability he had when he was 18?

He's a more consistent goal scorer and a far better passer of a ball/reader of a game than he was at 18.

Unreal.

But his point was regarding his speed and his ability to beat a man, all of which were better when he was younger.

He admitted that he's a better passer/reader of a game now.
 
You live in a fantasy world.
Messi missed 2 open goals after beating the GK against Arsenal, and if it wasn't for a blatantly stupid red card, could've cost Barca in 2011.

GK's and strikers have it very tough. Theirs are the finest margins, and in the lowest time to react and execute what they want to do. Ronnie has missed a goal from less than 6 inches. I'm sure he's done it more than that.

Pressure cookers make big mistakes out of people.
CR7 is as world class as you can get; how many 1v1's he miss for Portugal already? Yeah.

Think you've totally missed the point :lol:
 
Didn't his link up with Welbeck create the chance where Danny spooned it over the ba? Rooney was poor though but despite the Joe Hart to Andy Carroll combination in the second half, Rooney stilled looked like the only person who could do something positive going forward. The problem was he had to do it all by himself as Walcott was non-existant, Young dire and Carroll spend half the time passing to the Italiajns defenders.

That word is really broad in it's meaning. I have a different word in my head. I think in Icelandic and then translate in my head what I type as I go. Clear cut chance is perhaps a better phrase for what I was describing I guess.

He might have looked the only one to something but he was invisible in the 2nd half for the most part and he didn't end up doing anything. Tried one overhead kick and that was it. He wasn't any worse than his team mates but you've come to expect a bit more from him.

My biggest beef with him in this game is like I said, how he handled pressure. He usually holds the ball well and turns on the man or men that press him and relieve the ball to the next player but in this match he got dispossessed fairly easily.
 
You live in a fantasy world.
Messi missed 2 open goals after beating the GK against Arsenal, and if it wasn't for a blatantly stupid red card, could've cost Barca in 2011.

GK's and strikers have it very tough. Theirs are the finest margins, and in the lowest time to react and execute what they want to do. Ronnie has missed a goal from less than 6 inches. I'm sure he's done it more than that.

Pressure cookers make big mistakes out of people.
CR7 is as world class as you can get; how many 1v1's he miss for Portugal already? Yeah.

Think you've totally missed the point :lol:

He certainly has
 
He wasn't great by any means but I think people expect too much. He can't alone turn an average team in to a great team. I don't think you could swap Rooney out for any other world star and get a better performance.

England as they currently are, are just poor. On the ball there's no confidence. When players receive the ball more often than not they turn to face their own goal, severely limiting their passing options. This usually forces us to hit the ball long as we've taken too long and have not been closed down. The midfielders are never close enough which means that they can't pass it to each other often or quickly to move the ball forward and progress with the ball.

Due to this most the time one of our attackers get the ball they're surrounded by opposition players. We've not really done anything to force the opposition out of position and open up space. There were numerous times where Rooney or Welbeck got the ball and were just crowded out. Support is slow to arrive and with the wingers not being top class they don't provide the quality needed. How many times did we have a decent move, the ball got to Milner and he couldn't beat his man to put in a cross and checked back?

As long as we play this current way, in an effective out and out 442 we're always going to struggle. Add to that a lack of balance between work rate and quality. I.e. Milner and Parker, you can throw Young and Walcott in as well for consistentcy issues, good workers but not enough quality on the ball, we lack a cutting edge from wide areas.

Rooney was still behind the majority of our best moves and did some decent stuff which could have worked out better had the support been there. He was poor at times as well. But either way like I said I don't think any one single player could elivate this team, there's just not enough quality/confidence.

If we had, had Pirlo in our team I don't think he would have been able to influence that much because for all his passing he has players making the runs, or who are able to recieve the ball in tight situations and face up their man. We don't have that. Pirlo could sweep the ball wide but Milner/Young wouldn't do anything with it. He could try and go for a one two with Gerrard to find Gerrards nowhere near having found himself on the right wing for some reason, or he passes it to parker who stalls to long and passes back to the goalie or something.

This current team is just poor, these are some good elements and some exciting young players but we need a revamp. It's going to take more than just Rooney to sort England out and to expect Rooney to just drag through such a poor team is not gonna happen.
 
The problem with Rooney is that he is more or less useless when he's at his worst, but one of the very finest in the world when he's on form. It is worrying that a player who is supposed to enter his prime years is starting to look less of the striker we know he can be, and more of a striker that we hate to see.

When he is at the absolute top of his game I feel he is the only player who touches the level that Ronaldo/Messi are at.

The problem is that how often is this really? How often does he actually put in what someone would call a "World Class" performance? I would genuinely like to hear what games in the last couple of seasons people think he has played World Class, because I'd hazard a guess that you'd be looking at 10-15 games maximum.

He falls into the category of World Class because of his top, top level performances. The difference between him an another World Class striker (say Benzema) is you could take away his best 5 performances of the year and he'd still be seen as such, but Rooney's best 5 are on a different planet to the former's.
 
Rooney was much sloppier, and after half an hour when Pirlo’s dominance had become clear, Joe Hart was clearly heard shouting at Rooney to pick him up. Hodgson clearly wanted Rooney to do this, because for much of the game Rooney could be seen half-heartedly jogging towards Pirlo. It was reminiscent of the 2011 Champions League final, where he started off marking Sergio Busquets, before gradually leaving Manchester United outnumbered in midfield.

It’s odd that Rooney’s tactical indiscipline has become such a problem – only a few years ago his willingness to sacrifice his own attacking game for the good of the team was reagrded as one of his main qualities. England could have done with someone like Rooney’s club teammate, Park Ji-Sung, who did a superb job on Pirlo in 2009/10 – Urby Emanuelson did something similar for Milan earlier this year. Leaving Pirlo free was suicidal, and he completed over 30 more passes than any other player.

This is pretty much spot on. I don't agree that it's tactical indiscipline though, I think it's just fitness. Rooney doesn't have the conditioning of someone like Park to be able to do the job effectively for long enough. In some ways he's like Ricky Hatton, who I always regarded as a professional fighter, but not a professional athlete.
 
This is pretty much spot on. I don't agree that it's tactical indiscipline though, I think it's just fitness. Rooney doesn't have the conditioning of someone like Park to be able to do the job effectively for long enough. In some ways he's like Ricky Hatton, who I always regarded as a professional fighter, but not a professional athlete.

I think in many ways he is very similar to Hatton. Rooney lets himself go too much out of season, he really struggles to regain his fitness once the games start coming again, and takes him a few too many games until hes fit again.

When you compare Ronaldo to somebody like Floyd Mayweather, a truely dedicated boxer who looks after his body even in his off season. You can see the difference that he is naturally fit, where is wayne isnt.
 
Rooney plays every minute of every game for us and England. I would not call him unfit at all. He just gets jaded from playing so much.
 
Rooney plays every minute of every game for us and England. I would not call him unfit at all. He just gets jaded from playing so much.

So after a month break from the season he is still jaded? Even after going on holiday to?
 
So, should Rooney have made more of an effort to drop deep and help the midfield or did he do enough of that and it still didn't help? With that formation it was going to be up to Rooney to drop deep and provide a 3rd midfielder on defense.

Hodgson has come out and laid some of the blame on Rooney, and I have to admit he was in poor form, and when he's in poor form he can really struggle to make an impression.
 
When he is at the absolute top of his game I feel he is the only player who touches the level that Ronaldo/Messi are at.

Nar, not having that.

Iniesta at the top of his game is much better than Rooney for a start. There's a few names on that list in fairness.
 
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