No. We needed proven winners in a damaged squad. He hasn’t been great this year but that largely has to do with the injuries at the back, which has impacted the balance in our midfield. I think we’ll see the best of Casemiro in the second half of the season.
Was the Casemiro signing a mistake?
- Thread starter sullydnl
- Start date
It depends what we do next...
If we fail to acknowledge his decline, fail to move him on ASAP and allow him to be another expensive albatross around our necks (Pogba, Martial, Sancho, Varane, Sanchez, DDG, old Rooney, Ronaldo, Cavani) then we have a big problem.
If we do acknowledge his decline, shift him at the next opportunity for a reasonable sum, even if it leaves us a little light, I would the transfer and his time overall at the club as a success.
If we fail to acknowledge his decline, fail to move him on ASAP and allow him to be another expensive albatross around our necks (Pogba, Martial, Sancho, Varane, Sanchez, DDG, old Rooney, Ronaldo, Cavani) then we have a big problem.
If we do acknowledge his decline, shift him at the next opportunity for a reasonable sum, even if it leaves us a little light, I would the transfer and his time overall at the club as a success.
Im done with the proven winners argument tbh. Ronaldo and Varane, didn't really matter
Casemiro doesn't appear that he is going to age well !!
It's always a gamble to buy a player entering the twilight of his career especially for big money. The only saving grace is the Saudis seem to be prepared to splash big money on big names that are past their prime.
It's always a gamble to buy a player entering the twilight of his career especially for big money. The only saving grace is the Saudis seem to be prepared to splash big money on big names that are past their prime.
of the players we have historically signed over 30, who has been an actual success? Van Der Saar, Sherringham, maybe Zlatan for 3/4 of a season... Cavani might be pushing it.
So why we seem hell bent on pursuing this line of signings is beyond me
So why we seem hell bent on pursuing this line of signings is beyond me
Never fails to amaze me how bad peoples' memories are. Without Casemiro we don't win anything and finish outside the top 4 last season. Simple as that. Casemiro was a great signing in his 1st season. He was left exposed in the opening games of this season due to ETH changing his midfield structure, before eventually reverting back to a double pivot after it predictably failed. There is no midfielder in the world that wouldn't have been exposed by such a reckless and poorly thought out single pivot shape.
Even in a bad season, Casemiro's still our 2nd top scorer, our most progressive passing midfielder per 90, our top tackler per 90 and made the 2nd most blocks per 90. We still haven't seen a midfield 2 of Casemiro and Amrabat, which on paper seems like the most balanced midfield we can put out.
The argument on whether or not to make these type of signings in the future is a fair one, but now that he's already here, the idea of selling him seems extremely stupid to me. We're definitely worse without him. At least get another similar, younger player in January and see if he can perform before selling Casemiro. I think Varane is a much fairer target for criticism frankly.
Even in a bad season, Casemiro's still our 2nd top scorer, our most progressive passing midfielder per 90, our top tackler per 90 and made the 2nd most blocks per 90. We still haven't seen a midfield 2 of Casemiro and Amrabat, which on paper seems like the most balanced midfield we can put out.
The argument on whether or not to make these type of signings in the future is a fair one, but now that he's already here, the idea of selling him seems extremely stupid to me. We're definitely worse without him. At least get another similar, younger player in January and see if he can perform before selling Casemiro. I think Varane is a much fairer target for criticism frankly.
Agree with all of the above.
Waiting so long for FDJ was the mistake, he clearly wasn’t arsed about coming here.. Casemiro was just the result of that mistake, another panic buy.. hopefully we now see the end of terrible transfer decisions going forward
No, not at all. No Casimiro, we finished 8th at best last season - look at us now Champions League games.
We can already measure an ROI on Casimiro - Prize money (euros) distributed in the PL based end-of-season rank:
* PL Distribution - 8th place = $28.6M Vs. 3rd place = $39.6M
* Champions League Money allocation - 15.64 million euros ($16.8 million)
That's $26.64M Euros Man Utd would not have received without Casimiro's - Well worth the money...
Now - we can say that:
- Casimiro (350K/week - expensive, but, 1 goal every 5.72 games)
Vs.
- Antony (200K/week, 1goals every 7 games)
Vs.
- Jadon Sancho (250K/week, 1 goal every 6.83 games)
Vs.
Martial's(250K/week, 1 goal every 3.51 games) salaries need to go...even Martial has a better return on investment than both of those guys...
We can already measure an ROI on Casimiro - Prize money (euros) distributed in the PL based end-of-season rank:
* PL Distribution - 8th place = $28.6M Vs. 3rd place = $39.6M
* Champions League Money allocation - 15.64 million euros ($16.8 million)
That's $26.64M Euros Man Utd would not have received without Casimiro's - Well worth the money...
Now - we can say that:
- Casimiro (350K/week - expensive, but, 1 goal every 5.72 games)
Vs.
- Antony (200K/week, 1goals every 7 games)
Vs.
- Jadon Sancho (250K/week, 1 goal every 6.83 games)
Vs.
Martial's(250K/week, 1 goal every 3.51 games) salaries need to go...even Martial has a better return on investment than both of those guys...
Yes Casemiro is an incredibly good player. A world class player who had won multiple champions league trophies and league titles. No current player even comes close to what he's achieved except for Modric who is even older.
Rvp was 29/30 when we signed him and he smashed it.
But when signing a say 32 year old player we should ask ourselfs a few things:
1) what role is he going to play and position?
2) how can he influence the dressing room as a role model?
3) is he injury prone or does he have serious health issues? (Exmp. Eriksen)
4) how many good years can we excpect from him?
5) is he willing to be a squad player when his decline sets?
If we KNOW what we are doing with a specific +30 signing then Im all good with that. And honestly they can be a positive ifluence to the younger guys.
But we do not thing strategically at all when it comes to that and that is the issue.
But when signing a say 32 year old player we should ask ourselfs a few things:
1) what role is he going to play and position?
2) how can he influence the dressing room as a role model?
3) is he injury prone or does he have serious health issues? (Exmp. Eriksen)
4) how many good years can we excpect from him?
5) is he willing to be a squad player when his decline sets?
If we KNOW what we are doing with a specific +30 signing then Im all good with that. And honestly they can be a positive ifluence to the younger guys.
But we do not thing strategically at all when it comes to that and that is the issue.
No, Casimero was a classic short term United fix. Massive salary and wages and already needs replacing. People post about 3 year rebuilds and then try and justify signing over the hill players who we are now stuck with. its already clear he needs replacing and we have missed out on several top midfielders, any eventual replacement will likely cost more. If you want to build a winning squad it will take time but also sensible signings, there is a reason why RM were happy to sell both Varanne and Casimero. We were too dumb to see it.
Proven winners have nothing to prove. They tend not to put that extra effort else they risk getting crippled, they are impatient for more success, they are at the wrong age of their career thus physically they are in decline and if things go wrong then they are the first to down tools simply because their reputation will remain intact either way and their future is secured. There is a reason that SAF struggled more with proven winners (rvn, Ince, late Keane and late rooney etc) then promising talent with hunger to succeed. It also the reason why he avoided paying silly salaries and giving them long contracts
We all knew at the time that £70m was too much but were hoping his quality would come through and it did between November and March. Really important player for us last season and up there with Rashford and Martinez as our best overall performer. The signs were there that he was slowing down and diving in because players were waltzing past him, but our overall level meant he got away with it more than he does this season with our awful defence and no Fred to cover for him in certain games.
For my money it goes one of two ways now: he either sits out his contract while getting fewer and fewer minutes because it'll get to the point that the manager can't pick him consistently, or we try and flog him to Saudi for £20-30m - recouping some losses and being proactive.
For my money it goes one of two ways now: he either sits out his contract while getting fewer and fewer minutes because it'll get to the point that the manager can't pick him consistently, or we try and flog him to Saudi for £20-30m - recouping some losses and being proactive.
Good or bad what really matters is what club does with him going forward. Yes he has been left exposed but he’s also shown really big signs of his, watching him try to move around has been painful this season.
He has to be sold and funds invested in someone else, same for Varane. Their best days have been and gone, get money back whilst you can and get new players in. There isn’t much left in the tank for either player and not going to get worse.
He has to be sold and funds invested in someone else, same for Varane. Their best days have been and gone, get money back whilst you can and get new players in. There isn’t much left in the tank for either player and not going to get worse.
He's still a big player who offers a ton of leadership and can play a couple of good seasons for us if used correctly.
The mistake was never resting him last season.
To be honest I don't think we would be debating this so much if he had some more competent teammates alongside him. His biggest downsides have been the sendings off despite not having a track record of then at Real Madrid and his lack of pace being exposed (sometimes leading to those sendings off...).
These deficiencies weren't so exposed at Real Madrid because he had two fantastic midfielders alongside him who could actually share the defensive duties meaning he wasn't ever having to be a one man defensive screen, and because maybe he is also unfortunately slowing down
To go from being partnered by Modric and Kroos to being partnered by two of:
- An attacking headless chicken
- A 'defensive' headless chicken
- A faux midfielder who should have been taking Wout's role
- The resurrection
Is never going to make anyone look good!
And on the flip side I've been pleasantly surprised at how good he has been on the ball going forward at times, and also how he's probably been our biggest threat from set pieces in quite awhile. If we had someone else alongside him who could share the defensive midfield duties then maybe he would also be able to go forward more often to be an impact on crosses and he's shown he can hit them from the edge of the box.
So how Ten Hag didn't see how useful it would've been for both Casemiro and Bruno to sign a quality CM/DM as a priority is mind boggling. And surprise surprise they both have not had great starts to the season.
These deficiencies weren't so exposed at Real Madrid because he had two fantastic midfielders alongside him who could actually share the defensive duties meaning he wasn't ever having to be a one man defensive screen, and because maybe he is also unfortunately slowing down
To go from being partnered by Modric and Kroos to being partnered by two of:
- An attacking headless chicken
- A 'defensive' headless chicken
- A faux midfielder who should have been taking Wout's role
- The resurrection
Is never going to make anyone look good!
And on the flip side I've been pleasantly surprised at how good he has been on the ball going forward at times, and also how he's probably been our biggest threat from set pieces in quite awhile. If we had someone else alongside him who could share the defensive midfield duties then maybe he would also be able to go forward more often to be an impact on crosses and he's shown he can hit them from the edge of the box.
So how Ten Hag didn't see how useful it would've been for both Casemiro and Bruno to sign a quality CM/DM as a priority is mind boggling. And surprise surprise they both have not had great starts to the season.
I don't think he didn't see it. I just think that he was fixated on de Jong and him and the club couldn't really agree on an alternative.To be honest I don't think we would be debating this so much if he had some more competent teammates alongside him. His biggest downsides have been the sendings off despite not having a track record of then at Real Madrid and his lack of pace being exposed (sometimes leading to those sendings off...).
These deficiencies weren't so exposed at Real Madrid because he had two fantastic midfielders alongside him who could actually share the defensive duties meaning he wasn't ever having to be a one man defensive screen, and because maybe he is also unfortunately slowing down
To go from being partnered by Modric and Kroos to being partnered by two of:
- An attacking headless chicken
- A 'defensive' headless chicken
- A faux midfielder who should have been taking Wout's role
- The resurrection
Is never going to make anyone look good!
And on the flip side I've been pleasantly surprised at how good he has been on the ball going forward at times, and also how he's probably been our biggest threat from set pieces in quite awhile. If we had someone else alongside him who could share the defensive midfield duties then maybe he would also be able to go forward more often to be an impact on crosses and he's shown he can hit them from the edge of the box.
So how Ten Hag didn't see how useful it would've been for both Casemiro and Bruno to sign a quality CM/DM as a priority is mind boggling. And surprise surprise they both have not had great starts to the season.
Not aging like Thiago Silva unfortunately.
All of this. They must be a bit baffled tbh although they always give their all, no sense of arrogance in them.
To be honest I don't think we would be debating this so much if he had some more competent teammates alongside him. His biggest downsides have been the sendings off despite not having a track record of then at Real Madrid and his lack of pace being exposed (sometimes leading to those sendings off...).
These deficiencies weren't so exposed at Real Madrid because he had two fantastic midfielders alongside him who could actually share the defensive duties meaning he wasn't ever having to be a one man defensive screen, and because maybe he is also unfortunately slowing down
To go from being partnered by Modric and Kroos to being partnered by two of:
- An attacking headless chicken
- A 'defensive' headless chicken
- A faux midfielder who should have been taking Wout's role
- The resurrection
Is never going to make anyone look good!
And on the flip side I've been pleasantly surprised at how good he has been on the ball going forward at times, and also how he's probably been our biggest threat from set pieces in quite awhile. If we had someone else alongside him who could share the defensive midfield duties then maybe he would also be able to go forward more often to be an impact on crosses and he's shown he can hit them from the edge of the box.
So how Ten Hag didn't see how useful it would've been for both Casemiro and Bruno to sign a quality CM/DM as a priority is mind boggling. And surprise surprise they both have not had great starts to the season.
Honestly I see him being bypassed sometimes re lack of pace and it's simply because the midfield has been overrun and people are already charging at him so he has to turn. It's nothing to do with his individual pace it's to do with the total lack of cohesion of the team. Anyone know how quick Rodri truly is? I don't, he never has to sprint the way we're expecting Casemiro to to plug the gaps.
It's bizarre people are having a dig, saying he started slowly, given he moved country to join a new club with a new manager.
i reckon he, and a few other first teamers, had a huge chunk of change offered to them by the saudis over the summer and are playing/training like they wanted it to be accepted but were told no.
If we can recoup a large chunk of what we paid from Saudi then no, otherwise yes
Paying £60m for a 31 year old is always a mistake unless you're the complete team and you're pushing to win the league this year.
We had no one to step in for him, every time he was out we dropped significantly. Bigger and related question is could we have prioritised some competitions less last season instead of playing the core group almost every game. Momentum vs burnout
70m for 1 good season.
Because it's now impossible that Casemiro will ever play well for Utd again
Well looking at his age and how he's physically declined so much, I doubt he has much.
To be honest it was only half a season.
Hopefully he'll kick back into form, and I also do think that he's being set up to fail this season with a terribly balanced midfield around him which is playing it's part.
Latter part of last season and this season until his injury we seem to have changed the way we want him to play.
As a sitting dm he was quality for us. This new box to box role he seems to be playing highlights all his weaknesses. From a tactical point, it look like he has been given more freedom.
I would still like him sat right in front of the back four with the majority of his passes being to the other two midfielders or across to the full backs, with his main job being the destroyer.
Be a great coup for Saudi so will likely see him sold in the summer anyway and as a result making back most of the fee we paid.
As a sitting dm he was quality for us. This new box to box role he seems to be playing highlights all his weaknesses. From a tactical point, it look like he has been given more freedom.
I would still like him sat right in front of the back four with the majority of his passes being to the other two midfielders or across to the full backs, with his main job being the destroyer.
Be a great coup for Saudi so will likely see him sold in the summer anyway and as a result making back most of the fee we paid.
He was essential for last season but it's just another very short term signing. We definitely overpaid on the fee although wages were always going to be high. It is what it is, I fully expect if anyone half competent comes into run transfers we don't see this type of signing anymore.
Looking to acquiring players is no different to "having good or bad credit" when you need to buy something of value...
Great credit = You are in Champions League, you won your league or finished 2nd, what are the chances you winning the following year?
Bad credit = Not in Champions League, you did not win your League, likely doesn't have much chance of doing either in the next 2 years...
ManCity/Arsenal/RealMadrid = Great credit = Every player will accept lesser terms to go to these clubs to win Championships(One of them allowed him to leave, and the other would have payed substantially less)
Vs.
Man Utd = Bad credit = You pay more for eveything you want to buy, if a player is not going to win championships, they want longer terms and/or more money...
If we did not buy Casimiro last year, we as fans would be demanding "why" - we would be saying he's such a proven performer/a winner, etc...
Great credit = You are in Champions League, you won your league or finished 2nd, what are the chances you winning the following year?
Bad credit = Not in Champions League, you did not win your League, likely doesn't have much chance of doing either in the next 2 years...
ManCity/Arsenal/RealMadrid = Great credit = Every player will accept lesser terms to go to these clubs to win Championships(One of them allowed him to leave, and the other would have payed substantially less)
Vs.
Man Utd = Bad credit = You pay more for eveything you want to buy, if a player is not going to win championships, they want longer terms and/or more money...
If we did not buy Casimiro last year, we as fans would be demanding "why" - we would be saying he's such a proven performer/a winner, etc...
Not for his fees and wages.
We will find it tough to move him on considering his decline seems to have started
We will find it tough to move him on considering his decline seems to have started
Grrrr.....
It wasn’t good business. Was never going to be.
can only hope there is a cashed up Saudi club prepared to take him off our hands.
can only hope there is a cashed up Saudi club prepared to take him off our hands.
Hindsight yes…a great first season with most salivating that it’s great to finally have a ‘proper’ midfielder. Only for it to apparently come crashing down with a (so far) poor second season.
We need to stop doing this. Spending big on an ageing player…which basically funds the other club to go and get the younger replacement. It should be us spending the money on that younger player.
We need to stop doing this. Spending big on an ageing player…which basically funds the other club to go and get the younger replacement. It should be us spending the money on that younger player.
Nope
I think he was overplayed last season and this season, aside from his red cards suspensions, he was never rested until he got injured now.
This season he's been terrible, hopefully when he returns, he can recapture his good form from last season, but we can't have him solo the midfield on his own again.
This season he's been terrible, hopefully when he returns, he can recapture his good form from last season, but we can't have him solo the midfield on his own again.