Was the Casemiro signing a mistake?

[soapythecat]

Do we know when he’s back? I thought it was just a week or so.

 

[bosnian_red]

He simply isn't capable of covering the whole midfield by himself, I have been saying this since preseason - the fact ETH didn't see it as an issue and still pushed for 415 setup made me lose some faith in our manager. Because, the truth is NOBODY is capable of playing this role in our team. It's simply too much work. Prime Keane would struggle, because it's not only about positioning and energy, good teams will simply move him and then run past through the void.

Casemiro, Mainoo and Mount is the best and most balanced midfield on paper. I doubt we will ever see it though.

Yup agree (first paragraph). I like mount, but he's not better than Bruno and especially not for where our team is at. There's a ways to go until we outgrow Bruno IMO, it's a step that will be needed to transition from a good - very good team, into a top team, but he is key for us to even reach "good or very good" right now.

But generally, Ten Hag vastly overestimated what Casemiro was capable of, or vastly underestimated what is needed in deep midfield. I think hes flexible so I haven't lost hope, but faith definitely was hit as you say. We need a duo in there, and Mainoo next to Casemiro IMO can be a very strong midfield pair. But we simply need that for balance.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

The club probably saw buying Rice as bigger risk than buying 30yo Casemiro. It was a short sighted decision that was quite risky.
However, who saw THAT decline and injury record coming? It's just terrible luck again.

I stil think this wasn't a mistake and we should be able to recoup some decent money for him.

Rice wanted to stay in London, that's why he chose Arsenal. It was his choice to go there and the only question mark about the transfer was whether Arsenal would fork out the cash (9 numbers) or not. Purportedly, he's one of the two players City really wanted but failed to sign under Guardiola.

Other than that, wonder-kids and players about to enter their thirties always carry the highest amount of risk when it comes to transfers. The former because a player's development isn't linear and many youngsters actually fail to fulfil their (supposed) potential. The latter because you can never be sure if a steep decline is just around the corner. Especially those who come with a high mileage But it's not just an age thing. Spending 70 odd million on Hojlund was as risky as signing Casemiro. You want to see a club that never learns from its mistakes, consider a club that pays a king's ransom for an unproven youngster (who's doing well atm) when the previous super talent is still here collecting his 250k p/w.

Anyway, the fitness issues this season go beyond Casemiro. Last season was very taxing for the whole squad. As for the decline people think they see, i'd hold my judgement. One thing to keep in mind is that he plays in a far less dominant side than he used to. Another would be that there have always been weaknesses in his game which usually go under the radar because Real Madrid have more than enough quality all over the pitch to turn around games and because, when it comes to big ref calls, more often than not, they can also get away with murder sometimes.

I'm saying this because he wasn't the absolute beast many people believed he was last season, either.

I would also be wary of the potential Saudi cash posters on here see as candy. Especially now that the ban for loans between clubs with the same ownership didn't pass. You can never be sure to whom you are selling.

 

[Maticmaker]

KDB is 32 and played with 32 year old Gundogan last year in midfield....

Yes, they played in probably the best team in the world just now, and with plenty of young legs around them both making the runs, etc.

 

[DWelbz19]

First and foremost, not having a stupid structure in midfield is beneficial to everyone, not just Casemiro. If we want to play with two #10's they have to be hybrid #8's who are extremely comfortable in midfield and being connective deeper and after that, having the backline who support the #6 and the inversion besides that who slot in to cover spaces down outer-middle of the pitch.

Which begs the question: why did ten Hag think Mount, Fernandes and Casemiro would work? I think he was being very naive there.

A solid system and reading of play is a massive factor in controlling midfield; these days, the lose men who break free of that minefield to run at a backline are isolated and far away from goal, faced with pacey CB's and inverted fullbacks who will immediately pressure them. Until we have that, blaming a #6 makes little sense.

Definitely agree. It's already such a difficult role for a top level player like Casemiro that when an average midfielder like Amrabat plays there you see just how gigantic the drop off is.

As you've mentioned, Casemiro-Mainoo is the pairing I think many are eager to see, but I wonder whether that two #10's will be put to pasture and a double pivot utilised or even an #6, #8, #10 set up. I'd expect a massive upgrade in a midfield consisting of the aforementioned two plus someone ahead of them. In Mainoo, Casemiro would finally have a worthy partner by which he could be properly assessed.

I think if we want to win matches against equal or better level midfield balances, we simply have to abandon (or at least shelf for 12 months) the double no.10 proposal.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

Which begs the question: why did ten Hag think Mount, Fernandes and Casemiro would work? I think he was being very naive there.

It’s worse than naive.

Look at EtH’s signings & it quite clear he doesn’t fully understand the league he’s managing in. Mount, Eriksen, Martinez, Malacia, Antony, Onana - All small relative to their peers.

We end up signing Casemiro when de Jong fell through & have done nothing to supplement his aging legs.

Having been here a year, I am increasingly worried that EtH pinpointed Mount as a key midfield signing & is currently relying on McTominay, who he was happy to sell, for physicality.

 

[Borys]

Yup agree (first paragraph). I like mount, but he's not better than Bruno and especially not for where our team is at. There's a ways to go until we outgrow Bruno IMO, it's a step that will be needed to transition from a good - very good team, into a top team, but he is key for us to even reach "good or very good" right now.

But generally, Ten Hag vastly overestimated what Casemiro was capable of, or vastly underestimated what is needed in deep midfield. I think hes flexible so I haven't lost hope, but faith definitely was hit as you say. We need a duo in there, and Mainoo next to Casemiro IMO can be a very strong midfield pair. But we simply need that for balance.

There is one particular thing at which Bruno is better at than Mount - getting goals out of nowhere. It's quite clear ETH key for choosing players is they need to get him goals, this is also why McTominay has been core of the team (and often keeping Mount on bench). Eric seems happy to ignore that our both attacking midfielders (Bruno and McTominay) will lose the ball a lot, not help much with ball progression etc, because they give him goals out of nowhere. Mount doesn't seem capable of that at the moment so he sits.
Funny thing is, I think Mount has been quite alright for us whenever he gets on the ball, it's just he doesn't produce those moments that this team seems to rely on. And I get that decision from the manager, it's a pragmatic approach in difficult times (as no attacker seems capable of putting the ball into the net). It has worked in recent games, even if the performances have not been good, the results are there.
In the long run, I think Mount is the player that will take us forward though, as he is far better fit in terms of his profile compared to Bruno for a modern side. This is aligned with your comment I believe.

ETH is in catch 22 at the moment. The team doesn't play well and the goals are not coming, so he needs more "moments" players. We have some "moments" players but it's hard to play good football with them in key positions. Back to "the team doesn't play well". Normally it's OK to have those "moments" players if you can build a good platform for them to thrive. There has to be some balance, and it's completely off at the moment. Casemiro (paired with Mainoo?) should be able to bring that balance back. But I don't think this is what ETH is after (for a few reasons).

Which begs the question: why did ten Hag think Mount, Fernandes and Casemiro would work? I think he was being very naive there.
Definitely agree. It's already such a difficult role for a top level player like Casemiro that when an average midfielder like Amrabat plays there you see just how gigantic the drop off is.

I think if we want to win matches against equal or better level midfield balances, we simply have to abandon (or at least shelf for 12 months) the double no.10 proposal.

We absolutely have to abandon this if we want to survive the coming games against serious opposition. It doesn't matter who is the second midfielder (assuming Casemiro/Amrabat/Mainoo is the first) if we play him as a #10. ETH has been very reluctant to do so as recent evidence (McTominay as AM) shows, in fact we only play 2 man midfield when Eriksen is on the pitch as it's clear he is not catching anyone when they're off and running.

 

[Fortitude]

Which begs the question: why did ten Hag think Mount, Fernandes and Casemiro would work? I think he was being very naive there.
Definitely agree. It's already such a difficult role for a top level player like Casemiro that when an average midfielder like Amrabat plays there you see just how gigantic the drop off is.

I think if we want to win matches against equal or better level midfield balances, we simply have to abandon (or at least shelf for 12 months) the double no.10 proposal.

I'm one that's in the camp of underestimating the league, or believing his way would negate what the league stands for, despite even Pep moving away from supreme technical skills in favour of balance via size, athleticism, power allied to technical quality. Not only do they swarm, but they hit hard now, we don't swarm, and we definitely don't hit hard, and our #10's are not #8 enough to have any relevance in a true midfield dogfight, so it's just bad all round, especially so with players who are less technical than their counterparts.

The other issue is in not getting the defensive flanks right - they were supposed to be able to invert and offer support for the lone #6, problem is, we can't control midfield long enough for that to organically occur... so by the time we've gotten the ball and tried to do something with it, literally everyone is out of position as opposed to where they are supposed to be to make anything like that work properly, which led to Casemiro having a chasm behind him that was not being filled or covered by anyone else. Basically Russian Roulette football, which was suicidal and highly unsustainable.

It's a rare thing where something proposed that is a major concern even on paper turns out to be even worse in reality.

 

[cyril C]

We wouldn't have won the title that year without RVP. That year alone he was so great that it makes him a successful transfer, also we didn't pay that much for him.

By the same argument, do you think we would have secured 3rd, reaching all the Cup finals, WITHOUT Casemiro?

If answer is yes, then paying X million for Casemiro even for 1 season, still makes him a successful transfer.

BTW, sometime cost is not just about this particular transfer, there is opportunity cost as well. Robert Lewandoski refused to renew contract with Dortmund, eventually losing to BM for free. I am not saying Robert would prefer MU over BM, but Dortmund would certainly prefer selling him aboard then losing him to domestic rival, whether for a fee or free. 1 part of the negotiation would certainly be easy. Food for thought.

 

[SAFMUTD]

By the same argument, do you think we would have secured 3rd, reaching all the Cup finals, WITHOUT Casemiro?

If answer is yes, then paying X million for Casemiro even for 1 season, still makes him a successful transfer.

BTW, sometime cost is not just about this particular transfer, there is opportunity cost as well. Robert Lewandoski refused to renew contract with Dortmund, eventually losing to BM for free. I am not saying Robert would prefer MU over BM, but Dortmund would certainly prefer selling him aboard then losing him to domestic rival, whether for a fee or free. 1 part of the negotiation would certainly be easy. Food for thought.

Are you seriously comparing RVP influence in the 2012-2013 season with Casemiro last season? also are you comparing the EPL title with reaching two cup finals?

 

[telstar96]

Mixed bag signing I think is the best way of describing it. Short term it filled a gap in midfield, improved the team and ultimately helped us in the first season to win a trophy and get top 4.

However, most knew that it was a panic buy which lacked much long term thinking. Maybe we didn't think the long term consequences would come this quickly but it was eventually going to be a problem.

To say he's been a bad signing is unfair but when you consider that a team like Madrid have basically funded a young replacement in Tchouameni and we're now stuck with an ageing player, it just shows the main issue with player recruitment at United. Short term thinking, maximum commercial impact but a lack of long term, sustainable squad planning.

 

[Dominos]

We wouldn't have won the title that year without RVP. That year alone he was so great that it makes him a successful transfer, also we didn't pay that much for him.

It was also a situation where if we didn't sign him, he'd have gone to City. So it likely would have been gifting City the title after they'd already won it the previous year too.

 

[RyRy11]

But that in turn raises the question why we bought him. Having desperately chased FDJ all summer, who was never coming, the only decent CM we could find was an aging player that RM wanted rid of. Really? With a player like Mainoo its not clear why you need someone as limited as Casemiro, whose passing is hit and miss and legs have gone.

Usually, a new manager's the first transfer window is lackluster. EtH clearly identified that position needed strengthening straight away. After failing to convince FDJ to come, Real got on the phone to us trying to offload an aging player for a good fee (because thats what well run clubs do). Murtough (also new in his role) had his job done for him and paid £70m for the satisfaction. Did he improve us? Yes, but we are extremely short term-ist when it comes to team building.

 

[RedRonaldo]

He is 31 not 34. Was our best player last season, still think he has at least 1-2 good seasons left in him.

 

[RedRonaldo]

He simply isn't capable of covering the whole midfield by himself, I have been saying this since preseason - the fact ETH didn't see it as an issue and still pushed for 415 setup made me lose some faith in our manager. Because, the truth is NOBODY is capable of playing this role in our team. It's simply too much work. Prime Keane would struggle, because it's not only about positioning and energy, good teams will simply move him and then run past through the void.

Casemiro, Mainoo and Mount is the best and most balanced midfield on paper. I doubt we will ever see it though.

Why not though? I thought ETH was originally planning to play Casemiro+Mainoo this season, as he has been trying that out in preseasons.

While Mount for whatever reasons has always been ETH priority in the summer. I wouldn’t be surprise to see ETH testing out this midfield trio soon and shifting Bruno to the right again as we still don’t have anyone good on the right.

 

[the_cliff]

Why not though? I thought ETH was originally planning to play Casemiro+Mainoo this season, as he has been trying that out in preseasons.

While Mount for whatever reasons has always been ETH priority in the summer. I wouldn’t be surprise to see ETH testing out this midfield trio soon and shifting Bruno to the right again as we still don’t have anyone good on the right.

That would not surprise me at all.

I think he means there probably won't be a time this season where Case, Mainoo and Mount are fit at the same time.

 

[SAFMUTD]

It was also a situation where if we didn't sign him, he'd have gone to City. So it likely would have been gifting City the title after they'd already won it the previous year too.

Exactly, also worth to mention he was worth around 30M which was respectable money at the time but it's peanuts looking it back.

 

[daba]

Mixed bag signing I think is the best way of describing it. Short term it filled a gap in midfield, improved the team and ultimately helped us in the first season to win a trophy and get top 4.

However, most knew that it was a panic buy which lacked much long term thinking. Maybe we didn't think the long term consequences would come this quickly but it was eventually going to be a problem.

To say he's been a bad signing is unfair but when you consider that a team like Madrid have basically funded a young replacement in Tchouameni and we're now stuck with an ageing player, it just shows the main issue with player recruitment at United. Short term thinking, maximum commercial impact but a lack of long term, sustainable squad planning.

This.

I like Casemiro but I always had a feeling it would be a 2 year max signing before it went to shit, when what we needed was to properly rebuild our midfield. Admittedly we weren’t in a position to rival Madrid for Tchouameni but there were alternatives.

Palhinha would have been the perfect signing balancing an ability to instantly impact the side, only about to hit his peak so has 5+ years minimum in him, and not costing a fortune in transfer fee or wages (probably 1/3 of the cost overall).

It doesn’t even require hindsight, I and many others were calling for Palhinha at the time but we missed the boat and went for the headline grabbing signing instead. Hopefully under the new regime we start signing more Palhinha’s and less Casemiro’s.

 

[Pronewbie]

It wouldn't have been a mistake if he aged or ages like Thiago Silva. It's an intermediate risk that he won't, however. I still think he's the sort who could play till his late 30s as a CB - unfortunately at a lower level.

 

[The Siege]

I think his contract length is a mistake, especially because we're not good at managing and extending the longevity of physically declining players via the proper role adaptation.

He's a quality player and I'm glad he's in our side, but he needs to figure out the Casemiro he is now or this will go down the Matic road.

 

[MancunianAngels]

The mistake was overplaying him.

 

[stefan92]

I think if we want to win matches against equal or better level midfield balances, we simply have to abandon (or at least shelf for 12 months) the double no.10 proposal.

Yes and no... a double 10 can work fine, but not in front of a single 6. Formations that make it work successfully are usually 3421 or 4222 - so. fielding a second DM despite already playing two AMs to really control the midfield. So, back to the Rangnick days essentially who tried a 4222.

 

[Borys]

Why not though? I thought ETH was originally planning to play Casemiro+Mainoo this season, as he has been trying that out in preseasons.

While Mount for whatever reasons has always been ETH priority in the summer. I wouldn’t be surprise to see ETH testing out this midfield trio soon and shifting Bruno to the right again as we still don’t have anyone good on the right.

1. By default we play 1 DM/DLP
2. Amrabat looks terribly (slow) and I don't think he will be getting a lot of gametime here
3. McTominay is now considered an Attacking Midfielder
4. Because of points 1,2,3, it will most likely be Casemiro OR Mainoo with two attacking mids
5. McTominay is higher in the pecking order than Mount apparently, because there's a higher chance the ball will fall to his feet in some chaos inside the box
6. Bruno is captain and will always be picked, ETH had opportunities to drop him for Mount (who hasn't been bad this season, just doesn't pop up with goals and assists) and always went for Bruno

it is possible and I would love to see it, I just don't think it'll happen.

 

[sugar_kane]

He seems like a lot less of a mistake if Mainoo is as good we all hope (maybe not that good, I’m not sure any player is)

In that scenario he’s a seasoned, quality veteran who Mainoo can learn from but doesn’t have to play every minute.

Without Mainoo in the picture he’s a very expensive, slightly worn basket in which we’re placing all our eggs.

 

[cyril C]

Are you seriously comparing RVP influence in the 2012-2013 season with Casemiro last season? also are you comparing the EPL title with reaching two cup finals?

Striker and MF (& CB) plays different role, but in terms of influence or impact on result, is just about the same. Ask yourself what is going on when we, consistently 3 games in a row, scored early but end up conceding multiple goals.

Do you think, we would never be able to win the 2012 season, without RVP?

In terms of overall achievement, I would say winning EPL is as great as reaching 2 finals (Plus Top 4), although personally prefer winning EPL. BY the same agrument, Ole has achieved a lot. Only problem with all these managers, is on consistency. Great 1-2 seasons, then off the cliff. Had we been able to maintain Top 4 performance while reaching Cup finals consistently, I would say most fans (incl our accountant) would be pleased, just need that final push.

 

[SAFMUTD]

Striker and MF (& CB) plays different role, but in terms of influence or impact on result, is just about the same. Ask yourself what is going on when we, consistently 3 games in a row, scored early but end up conceding multiple goals.

Do you think, we would never be able to win the 2012 season, without RVP?

In terms of overall achievement, I would say winning EPL is as great as reaching 2 finals (Plus Top 4), although personally prefer winning EPL. BY the same agrument, Ole has achieved a lot. Only problem with all these managers, is on consistency. Great 1-2 seasons, then off the cliff. Had we been able to maintain Top 4 performance while reaching Cup finals consistently, I would say most fans (incl our accountant) would be pleased, just need that final push.

Hahaha what the actual feck I don't know if this is sarcasm or not.

Two cup finals plus top 4 is as great as winning the EPL? HAHAHA WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

Didn't read the rest of the post for obvious reasons.

 

[Malone_Post]

Would genuinely be delighted if he never played for United again.

One of the most overrated and bizarrely loved players we’ve ever had. Spends the whole time jogging around, throwing himself into challenges he can never win, giving the ball away trying ridiculous passes and laughing when he fecks up. Clearly here for his final pay cheque and treating it as such.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

Would genuinely be delighted if he never played for United again.

One of the most overrated and bizarrely loved players we’ve ever had. Spends the whole time jogging around, throwing himself into challenges he can never win, giving the ball away trying ridiculous passes and laughing when he fecks up. Clearly here for his final pay cheque and treating it as such.

Well I'm glad you're not the manager then. It's no coincidence that there has been an upturn in form since he came back into the team.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Just saw that @sullydnl hasn't been online since December 31st. Hope he’s doing ok. Great poster.

 

[Juice Juiced]

Casemiro doing his stuf. Unbeaten when he came back. And Varane.

 

[VincentNguyen]

I hadn't follow Madrid much on Casemiro last season in Madrid but watching the final ucl against Liverpool, he was the weakest chain of Madrid that night. Losing possession, wrong pass, etc...
He played incredibly in the first half of 22-23 season but he was never the same after the world cup, especialy after the summer when he gained too much weight.
This signing is decent but 60m for him is too much

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

Well I'm glad you're not the manager then. It's no coincidence that there has been an upturn in form since he came back into the team.

That has nothing to do with Casemiro and more to do with our attack having better chemistry

 

[SalfordRed18]

Was fantastic in his first season and solid enough since he's been back from injury, so no.

 

[stepic]

He needs replacing after barely 2 seasons so, no, not a good signing.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Classic Woodward short term signing

 

[Leftback99]

Always was. Never changed my mind.

The panic singings of him and Antony were worse than last summers business.

 

[Ole'sgunnarwin]

He has no legs. Clear as day. Looks like he'll be sent off in about half his matches. I'd trust Amrabat over him. He still has quality but he's too risky with the fouls he gives away.

 

[Bubz27]

That has nothing to do with Casemiro and more to do with our attack having better chemistry

Midfield has no influence on attack of course.

 

[pascell]

Not selling him last summer was an even bigger mistake.

 

[CloneMC16]

He's finished. Dives in constantly every game and always looks on the the edge of being sent off. Gives the ball away way too much, too.

One half season of good form wasn't worth it.