From what I've read this morning, he's been the best defender in the world since 2010...
F**k Off!
F**k Off!
Virgil van Dijk | Performances
- Thread starter Samid
- Start date
It is well known Manchester City were in for Van Dijk, while Chelsea and Arsenal both asked the question of Southampton.
Now it transpires United did actually throw their hat into the ring and made an enquiry for Van Dijk.
They wanted to know the terms of his deal last December but, as is typical of that club now, the question was asked on the day Van Dijk was undergoing his medical at Anfield. By then it was too far late. United's loss is most definitely Liverpool's gain.
- Dom King (one of the few reliable sources at the Daily mail)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...t-Manchester-United-push-Virgil-van-Dijk.html
VVD is the world's best defender. Allison is the best GK. Keita is GOAT midfielder. Liverpool are the best team of all time. Thus says RedKOPe.
best GK in the world
Best young full backs in the world
best CH in the world
Best front 3 in the world
they should piss the league this season
Best young full backs in the world
best CH in the world
Best front 3 in the world
they should piss the league this season
I don't think individuals should be judged on what trophies they have won. Was Michael Carrick a better midfielder than Gerrard was? Circumstances play a huge role in who wins silverware, Benjamin Mendy has a PL and World Cup winners medal after spending the whole season injured.
Vert played in a side which was attack first in his first few seasons, we had very little defensive discipline as a team and were a mess under AVB. He was actually pretty poor for a small period though, but has been excellent for a few seasons now, which I would argue is enough to put him up there with some of the bigger names. Toby wasn't present last season and he was the best CB in the league.
Looking purely at goals conceded is a really bad way to judge central defenders. City conceded very few goals last season, but the likes of Otamendi and Stones aren't great central defenders, they just play in a team who often overruns their opposition and prevents them from actually threatening the backline. I'd say the best way to assess it would be to look at an individuals defensive contributions, but mostly to just actually watch them play football, because statistics for defenders I think can be particularly misleading. Toby/Vert as a partnership were the best defensive in 16/17, but going beyong the statistics we just looked so comfortable and solid in most of our games, the eye test is the most important one.
Liverpool lost 4-1 against Spurs on Oct 22nd, Van Dijk played his first game for Liverpool on Jan 22nd against Swansea. Funny how Van Dijk contributed to Liverpool defensive performance in November and December playing for Southampton.
Also after loss against Spurs, Liverpool's first loss in league was against Swansea.
Also since Van Dijk's debut, only good teams Liverpool played was against Manutd (A), Spurs (H), Chelsea (A) and conceded 5 goals. 2 lost and 1 draw, explains why defensive performance was better as you played 7 games against top 6 without VVD and 3 with him in the side.
No doubt he's a top defender but my point was he's not on the level of Godin, Ramos, Varane and Umtiti . I think Toby might be on their level but i don't think Vert is but he's very close. Obviously i don't watch Spurs all the time and i agree the eye test is the most important regarding defenders as a defender can have a perfect game only for his defensive partner to make a couple of mistakes and allow the opponent to score twice, the stats will show he conceded 2 goals but he had a perfect game.
Yeah because a couple of Liverpool fans think that , it must be true!
I'm a big fan of Godin, I'd say he's a better defender than Toby or Vert for sure, but Ramos isn't really a great central defender. He's a talisman and a winner, but his actual defensive contributions can often be so lacking. Varane/Umtiti are very good, but I wouldn't say either are consistently at a higher level, they just play for much better teams.
Not having the best squad depth in the world is a factor in a league season unfortunately
Ah like the time he punted the shit out of Lamela and gave away a pen in the 90th minute? Cost you 2pts? Ah but let me guess, you don't think it was a pen.
VVD can do no wrong lads, he might be the best of all time.
Jesus christ, I'll say one thing about Liverpool; you don't half love a good hype machine. Nobody else quite does hyperbole like some in your fanbase.
I also mentioned how Klopp changed his strategy of keeping both Trent and Roberston high up the pitch while in possession. He also changed the role of the deepest midfielder. Henderson started playing close to the CBs, instead of making the play compact. The defensive line changed as well. All these adjustments lead to a better defense, along with the arrival of VvD.
Also, wasn't it a major talking point of how Liverpool mess up against the mid table lower league, have a lapse in concentration and concede points ? Doesn't the number of goals conceded show a dramatic reduction in those ? This is again, a major positive. No more Burnley like performances at the back.
To address your points about games against the top 6, with VvD, you're right. We did abysmally ! Trent got bullied by players like Rashford and Zaha but he has learned now. If you watched on Monday, Zaha had a much, much quieter game against Trent. Hopefully this improvement will show itself in the games against top 6 this season. VvD has improved us massively, but the other 3 have to get in line as well. The early signs are promising.
Again, I could not care less about the debate on who is better between Virgil and Alderweireled / Vertonghnen / Ramosthemobhitter / Varane etc. He is the perfect defender for how we play. I urge anyone who watches him regularly to list his weaknesses. I'll wait.
@shirked : Indeed. Wasn't a pen.
No one is doing that. But you can't ignore a key metric directly related to one of the core competencies of a central defender: preventing goals. And you can't advocate the eye test and then state City's defensive form had literally nothing to do with their central defenders, which makes me question whether you actually watched them at all last season or the season before.
I didn't say to ignore it, please point out where I do so. I said looking purely at goals conceded is a poor way to judge central defenders, which it is, because it ignores a number of factors such as their partners, how high the fullbacks push up, how much protection they receive from midfield, playstyle etc.
Again, I never said their defensive form had nothing to do with their central defenders, you're putting words in my mouth. I said they played in a team which dominated the ball (Their defenders being comfortable with it is a big part of this, but in terms of actual defending they are not great players, and when they're exposed or outside the system this is evident) and this was a significant reason for the exceptional defensive record City boasted. In most games they were rarely tested, because the team they play for are able to choke the life out of 90% of teams they face.
If you think City's central defenders are exceptional and the key reason behind City conceding very few goals, then I'd question whether you watched them in the last two seasons.
Couldn't care less about the other arguments, you posted some stats from Oct 22nd and said defensive improvements are mostly down to VdV, ignoring he played from Jan 22nd.
Of course he is a very good CB, but he isn't good enough to improve Liverpool while playing for Southampton.
Again, you can make a direct correlation between City's defenders' form 2 years ago, where a lot of goals were conceded on relatively few shots, and their form last season, where they stepped up to the challenges of holding an extremely high line without being burnt by counter attacks and set pieces. Otamendi made the PL team of the season.
I don't like just relying on statistics to make a point; stats are only useful when you use them in a wide context, having watched the players, and understanding the situations they're performing on. Overall contribution is very hard to quantify. I'm also very, very wary of anybody stating facts and 'assuring' me of things. That said, I still disagree with you. I'm not personally all that interested in Spurs or other players, I'm interested in who the best player is for the system and the team he's playing in. Like I say, and this is just an opinion, I wouldn't swap him for those players. However, you made a statement and gave me an assurance that I think is wrong. As I attempt to be fair minded, I went and had a look at the statistical differences of these two players. It's interesting reading. They're too big to embed and I can't anyway, due to not having enough likes. So here's the links.
VVD vs TA
In the comparison, you can see a star next to the better stat. They both had injuries recently, and both played 14 games last season. 14 for Liverpool for VVD and 14 for Spurs for TA. I compared them on this basis. He absolutely does come out on top of TA here. One thing to note is the improvement from very similar passing and distribution stats to TA when he was with a poorer side like Southampton, to a significantly better set at Liverpool. His defensive stats are pretty much universally better.
17/18: Link
16/17: Link
EDIT: I'm way less concerned with these stats than it probably seems. I don't see them as particular proof of anything (other than not to trust 'assurances' on the internet), he's quality for Liverpool and, in my opinion, worth the money we paid for him. He's not a massive Carroll/Benteke type embarrassment of a signing, so that's a start. Also, I'm less interested in who is the best in the world, and more interested in who is available that's best for Liverpool. The answer to that is Van Dijk.
I really like VVD and I think he is quality and will show this year that he is "arguably" the best CB in the league
However the over rating on here of him having no weakness's or being comfortably the best defender in the league is insane
However the over rating on here of him having no weakness's or being comfortably the best defender in the league is insane
Basically this.
Do you genuinely believe Otamendi is a top class defender? Serious question, because I don't even think most City fans feel that way. He was very poor in his first season, and when City do face teams who are able to expose the defence, he still looks shaky. They hold a high line but keep the ball for the vast majority of the match, and most teams simply don't have the ability on the counter to threaten them, they surrender the game from the start. Look at how Conte set up vs City ffs, there was zero trouble in 90 minutes for the City defenders to deal with.
Liverpool are probably the only excellent counter attacking side in the league, and they gave the City defence a torrid time. A Mourinho team at its best too can cause issues, as we saw when they conceded 3 at home to United. It's just such occasions were rare because the rest of the team were so consistently excellent that teams gave up even attempting to take the game to them, or were just outclassed across the pitch. City's defenders are good on the ball and they aren't terrible defenders, but they also aren't exceptional. I wouldn't have any of their centre backs in the top five, and I imagine that'll be a pretty common opinion.
And this shows what? The interest from big clubs was from the last 12-18 months, not 2-3 years ago.
Indeed. He's looked very good and I'm cautiously optimistic that in a year's time he'll be widely considered the best in the league. But let's give him a full season before calling him better than Alderweireld or Godin.
I maintain that VVD is comfortably the best CB in the league. I'd think the same if he was at any club. We will find out, I suppose.
Top class, as in world class? No. Comfortably in the tier below, which is where most defenders mentioned in this thread fall. Kompany of a few years ago was WC. Haven't seen anyone reach that level since.
You keep on going back to this notion that the defense are removed from the rest of the team putting so much pressure on the opposition who give up any notion of defending. The defense is a crucial part of that pressure applied, and their feck ups are magnified. Which is why City of 2016-17 were a joke. They had the same personnel up front applying pressure to the opposition. Once the opposition (Leicester, Tottenham, Chelsea) had chances to bypass that pressure, the defense shat their pants. That didn't happen last season, because the relatively few high quality chances were for the most part snuffed out by Otamendi, Stones and Kompany.
You're a Tottenham fan. Do you honestly not see the difference in the performance of their defense between 2016-17, where you piped them at Wembley, and 2017-18, where you guys couldn't put pressure on a back line reeling from an exit in the CL and defeat in the Derby? And lost?
I think that has more to do with the improvement of their FBs and in how they're more able to keep teams pinned back than it has to do with Otamendi, Stones and a more depleted Kompany being great at snuffing out chances. Also think Ederson was a ajor upgrade as a shot stopper over Bravo.
I'd buy it if City's defense weren't under any pressure in the game last season. They were for a good amount of time (and conceded one goal). They could have improved in all those areas and still be burnt due to errors from their CB pairing.
You think Otamendi in 17/18 was on the same level as Alderweireld in 16/17, for example?
City of 16/17 were a joke because they had two ancient fullbacks getting regular gametime and constantly exposing them, they brought in Walker & Mendy (Delph later replaced him, but he was better than Kolarov who had no pace) and that made a significant difference. They also gained more control in midfield by getting rid of the likes of Fernando (who started when we beat them 2-0) and dropping De Bruyne deeper, who forces teams to play deeper due to his passing range and ability on the ball. They also improved offensively by getting rid of the useless Navas and bringing in Sane, again far more threat on the break (If you watched him vs us, he shredded Trippier) which meant our fullbacks were unable to push up high like they did when we played them in 16/17. Lastly, they signed Ederson, who is infinitely more reliable and calming than having Bravo, again making a difference.
There's also the fact that the entire squad had still been adapting to Guardiola's methods in 16/17, whereas by 17/18 he knew the players he could rely on and the squad were more in tune with the system. The backline wasn't as exposed because the midfield and attack were pressing with more organisation and better at keeping the ball, by now Guardiola's training methods have likely been drilled in to them to the point where they are more comfortable on the ball than ever before. There's tons of improvements which can explain their improving defensive record beyond Otamendi/Stones just getting better individually, although yes they did also get better and looked less nervous, again probably because by now they're more comfortable playing in a Guardiola team.
Of course I can see the difference in performance, I just don't attribute that to their CB performances being exceptional, because they weren't IMO. There are so many other factors to consider which transformed the way that result went, and I think their improvements at CB are one of the least of those.
Anyway, this is kind of taking the thread off topic, it's a Van Djik thread not one concerning Man City, happy to continue if you wanna take it in to their thread or PM.
We really didn't put them under much sustained pressure, except for a spell at the end of the first half where we did get the goal. Our performance was very poor, they controlled the game across the pitch and we were simply outclassed. IIRC anyway it was Kompany who started this game (and in fairness, was fantastic and got an assist) next to Laporte, and not Stones/Otamendi.
Otamendi was after a wobbly first few games was by some distance City's best and most consistent defender last season. His all round play was excellent and from inside City it was accepted he was the most improved player and hence he was rewarded with a contract extension. More passes p90 than any other player in the league and also 5 goals to his name.
But this is about classic defending. If you get through to City defenders they are often very exposed in big amounts of space which is the perfect recipe for looking vulnerable and crap. However, City's defenders are subject to the same pressures as every other team in the league when defending corners and set pieces around the box. City let just 1 goal in from 99 corners all league season (another record for a PL season in absolute terms and % of goals conceded per corner). A big part of that was due to Otamendi.
Like I said, this isn't the Otamendi thread, so I'm not going to further take the thread off topic. Happy to discuss it elsewhere, but this isn't the place.
Defenders like VVD are the ones that tend to get overrated the most. Physical, aggressive centre backs that make some highlight reel tackles as well as being super fast and super strong on everyone's favourite playstation football game
He got so much better as when i saw him play for Groningen. He was good but i didnt expect him to become (one of) the best central defenders in the premier league.. still it is unbelievable no Dutch topclub tried signing him.
I believe Ajax could have signed him but they did choose to sign the more expensive Swansea (and Ajax) flop Mike van der Hoorn.
I believe Ajax could have signed him but they did choose to sign the more expensive Swansea (and Ajax) flop Mike van der Hoorn.
My 2p worth.
VVD is very good. Maybe he is the best CB in the league and maybe he isn't. But he seems to calm things down a lot in defence, which increases confidence throughout the side. He is also a leader, which is something that Liverpool lacked before him. He also has fewer mistakes in him, which counts a lot in tight games (which are incidentally the games when defenders get nervous because a single mistake can be very costly). His performance against Palace, for example, was very impressive because of the situation in the game where a single goal would have brought Palace right back in it.
As an aside, I thought Liverpool's defence, while not being the best in the league by any stretch, was quite underrated over 17/18. Liverpool's defence didn't give up too many opportunities with or without VVD. There were two absolutely shocking games (City and Spurs) which made Liverpool look a lot worse than it was.
VVD is very good. Maybe he is the best CB in the league and maybe he isn't. But he seems to calm things down a lot in defence, which increases confidence throughout the side. He is also a leader, which is something that Liverpool lacked before him. He also has fewer mistakes in him, which counts a lot in tight games (which are incidentally the games when defenders get nervous because a single mistake can be very costly). His performance against Palace, for example, was very impressive because of the situation in the game where a single goal would have brought Palace right back in it.
As an aside, I thought Liverpool's defence, while not being the best in the league by any stretch, was quite underrated over 17/18. Liverpool's defence didn't give up too many opportunities with or without VVD. There were two absolutely shocking games (City and Spurs) which made Liverpool look a lot worse than it was.
Your keeper legitimately shit his pants in the CL final. Van Dijk is a calming presence indeed.
Liverpool's defence was solid at home and abysmal away, making it average overall.
I'll give it a season but he looks the mustard. Him and Allison should help us through some stern away tests.
Heading everything coming his way.