Those are rookie numbers, I reckon I could do that if I got enough starts.
Virgil van Dijk | Performances
- Thread starter Samid
- Start date
Just a thing I've read, Maldini was used to tackle quite a bit. Nesta for instance quite a lot.
I get the premise, the notion of avoiding tackling, yet it ain't entirely right.
Tackling is necessary, you just have to be better at how/when/where to use it.
Also FOULING is necessary, fouling without being noticed even more, a defender that doesn't make a foul it's not doing entirely his job.
I get the premise, the notion of avoiding tackling, yet it ain't entirely right.
Tackling is necessary, you just have to be better at how/when/where to use it.
Also FOULING is necessary, fouling without being noticed even more, a defender that doesn't make a foul it's not doing entirely his job.
It's one of those cliches that sounds smart until you analyze it, at which point it falls apart.
Some threats (a pass between the lines) can be intercepted without a tackle. Ok. Try stopping a raging bull like Drogba or Ronaldo or Haaland who has the ball, without tackling.
Defending has always been trenches work. There's an element of elegance and brain to it for sure. But you can't be a complete defender without being capable of getting in the mud. And that's no sign of being a lesser defender as it's made out to be on here. That, by the way, is how you get takes like Carvalho being better than Terry...
Absolute prick of a bloke but unfortunately the best CB in the league over the past few years. Makes it into the top 10 best CBs in PL history, but not top 5, for me.
yeah but as we’ve established, that’s like boasting that you’ve got the biggest dick in kindergarten. and that just ends with a petition from the parents to remove you from your job.
I haven't read the past few pages but I'd say Thiago Silva was the only one who came close to him during this period of dearth in quality CBs.It's not an outrageous take if you compare their peaks. Carvalho's peak was significantly shorter though, especially in the Premier League, so he obviously shouldn't be as high on the list as Terry... but I do believe that he was better than Terry at least for a few seasons when they were playing together regularly. Not by a lot though and they've complimented each other brilliantly.
Saliba has had some good periods, as has Diaz.
Poor man's David Unsworth
Best of a bad era really. It annoys me how younger people think players of of previous generations couldn't live in this era. There was so many more better players back then. There's a dearth of talent everywhere. Where are all the world class defenders and strikers? There's hardly anybody. Football has become boring.
I’ve seen it said a lot and it’s always baffled me. Carvalho was an incredible CB, but quite literally the entire time he was at Chelsea it was Terry > Carvalho.
It's become a game of athleticism and uber organisation , strong, fast and high stamina players are prioritised over flair and creativity.
The problem with today’s football is that individualism has been eradicated in favour of being a functional player within specific systems.
It’s a case of a META emerging and players having no choice than to live within it.
If you had any top player from 20 years ago, they would easily slot into todays football and quickly learn the system.
That said I honestly think if you had the peak City team from 4/5 years ago or the peak Real Madrid side from the same time, they’d win more often than not against the great sides of the 00s and 90s. That’s just sports science and years of tactical progress.
Conversely if you took someone like Van Dijk and dropped him into the 00s he’d be nowhere near the likes of Ferdinand, Nesta, Terry etc etc because he’s reliant on the system and rarely has to defend one on one. We’ve seen it, he just backs off and backs off and hopes someone else will rescue him. I can’t imagine the aforementioned defending like that, they’d be embarrassed to concede as many yards as he does shy of tackling.
Van Dijk being poor in one on ones. This forum is something else sometimes.
That's the key and I think there's space for this take. Carvalho's peak in that first team was brilliant
It's the "Terry and Vidic were plodders next to the brains of the defense in Carvalho and Rio" that get to me
Can you quote that?
“He’d be nowhere near the likes of X, Y and Z because in today’s game he barely defends one on one” implies that he’d have a problem with that in those systems back in the day.
It’s immediately explained later though — he does prefer not to engage when possible, I don’t think you can argue against that? Feels disingenuous to criticize the forum for something that hasn’t been said.
He’d have to change his style a lot (just like the defenders from the 00’s would have to adapt to today’s football). Personally I think he’s well capable of it as evading those situations is clearly a conscious choice, when he has to defend one on ones, he’s phenomenal — too big to outmuscle, too fast to outrun and agile enough to deal with nifty dribblers.
Agreed. It’s just a pointless exercise that cannot be proven either way, not just because their styles of defending differ but also because the game in itself has changed so much since then. I will never claim I watched enough Utd games in the 00s to have a good opinion on Vidic or Ferdinand but e.g. was Vidic’ passing and range even close to what Van Dijk offers in that respect? Same with playing out from the back, leading a high defensive line, stuff like that. I don’t know but don’t think he’d have to do it as often as Van Dijk currently does.
For me Van Dijk has done enough to be mentioned in the same conversation as them, both from a longevity and peak point of view. Preferences will always be different, especially on here given that two Utd defenders from a very successfull era are in the discussion.
Vidić’ passing gets underrated at times but he was similar to Terry in that regard — very reliable and fairly progressive but barely anything extraordinary. Obviously, Rio, Evra and midfielders (usually Carrick & Scholes) took most of the playmaking from the back responsibilities.
Van Dijk is on another level there, especially with his diagonals. Rio is a better comparison but van Dijk is still a better passer than him, I’d say — I’d give Rio an edge at ball control & progressive runs though.
Who’s the 5 you’d have over him?
I’d say Vidic and Rio (possibly biased), Carvalho, Campbell …. All subjective against VVD if we’re being honest.
I'd take at least 6 over him. Vidic, Rio, Terry, Carvalho, Campbell, Stam.
Tbf I think Terry's passing was very underrated, used to play some excellent balls in behind for Cole down the line or could easily switch it up and spread it to other flank.
On the flip side I feel Rio's passing was somewhat overrated, it was good for the time but wasn't anything amazing. Vidic's was solid, kept it simple and rarely gave the ball away - which is a skill in itself.
In those days - Scholes/Carrick would come and take it off your feet 5 yards away. The CB's didnt really have to come over the half way line with the ball and break the lines like we see today. Also they didn't really get pressed high - as that wasn't the trend at the time and teams rarely played out from the box (you couldn't stand in there at the time).
Terry was very good on the ball. Ancelotti really brought that out of him to good effect.
They would fall apart and wouldn't be in the top four without him. They would drop a level. He brings organisation and calmness to their play, gives confidence to the other players to play their game. That's how good he is.
I mean you're entitled to your opinion but Carvalho was never better than Terry. Terry is so incredibly underrated just because he was a dick. Also Rio had one season where he was arguably the best CB in the world in 07/08. Vidic had two in 08/09 and 10/11.
Agree, I feel like Rio has been elevated to something he just really wasn't for large swathes of his career. And he was never a truly world class ball playing defender like a Ramos, better than the very limited Vidic on the ball sure but not incredible. I'd say Terry was a better ball player than Rio. Terry had amazing long balls and had a great left foot too.
Liverpool are 15pts (with a game in hand) above 5th. If VVD is worth 15pts after 23 games then that’s beyond anything I could imagine and makes him the most important player in my lifetime.
This 'boring' narrative is being used a lot, unsurprisingly, by united fans. Never mind the PL is now seeing the most goals, overall best attacking play, than it ever has. In an era when defenders get away with a lot less, and teams have become a lot more technical than route one, centre backs playing out and being creative, it's a different type of CB now. Rio would be still doing great, Terry and Tony Adams less so. You can argue that an era with Rooney, Drogba, Henry had better attackers, but there's also been Torres, Suarez, Aguero, Kane, Salah, Halland, always a few stand out attackers. But the depth through the league is without doubt greater now in attacking terms. VVD had one average season when he seemed to get carried away with his own press, became too casual and was getting caught out a bit, he's cleaned that up the last couple of years.
Boring? League weaker? makes a lot of United fans feel better while they struggle and have to watch their old rivals doing so well.
It's just his method of defending in those one on one situations, he backs off as he likes to rely on his pace and strength to cut off the attacker, probably because he doesn't trust his tackling.
Far and away clear as the most overrated player in Premier League history. Long since overtaken the likes of Berbatov and Makalele. World class but the hype just gets ridiculous. How he even gets into the conversation of Vidic and Terry who won 5 times as many titles and were clearly better, never mind the great Italian league CBs. A result of success starved Liverpool fans/pundits, social media hysteria and an era of poor defenders.
Using that argument Henry shouldn't be seen as the greatest Pl attacker of all time, he only won 2 leagues afterall. The likes of Rooney, Giggs, Drogba, Aguero won more than twice as much yet most people on this forum would rate Henry higher.
A couple of VVD's best seasons were when he didn't win anything at all, that shouldn't take away from the performances, you judge players on their individual merit, not how many leagues they've won.
When i analyse players and compare them to each other, my go to is not how many trophies each player won because thats dependant on their teammates, situation at the time and context. For example R9 never won a CL but i post a thread on here a couple years ago that added context to that, some people would automatically use that against him and say such and such player is better than him because they manage to win a couple European cups, but it doesn't always work like that.
Judge the players on their own merit, was such and such a better footballer than the other, better technique, faster, stronger, more consistent? In case of defenders, i think if i was building a team in any era, i would rather have a player that was better on the ball faster stronger and can play in a deep line or high line, VVD has this over both Terry and Vidic which is why i would go for him being better. When you look at it i can't really think of an area of the game where a Terry would better a VVD, probably just goalscoring, in the air in terms of defensive duels they would probably be neck and neck as two of the most aerially dominant cbs of the PL era.
But Rio had very very good ball control for a CB, i still remember seeing highlights of him coming through at West Ham, nutmegging opposing players, doing drag backs and flicks, the full works, he had to curb a lot of that natural ability the better the teams he played for.
People often conflate being good on the ball dribbling/ball control with passing. Ferdinand and Stones are two players that were much better at that aspect than passing whereas Terry and Van Dijk much better at passing. But Ferdinand/Stones more likely to be given the full ball-playing defender privilege because they look better on it.
Absolutely spot on, people love the idea of Ferdinand more than what he actually was, in theory he was the perfect centre back but in reality he had poor concentration and made poor decisions at times, Vidic was far more consistent at that and a better defender as a result. Ferdinand was obviously world class too but doesn’t deserve the mythical status he often gets here.
Absolutely.
Rio was quite strange in that he started off being extremely good on the ball (for a defender) but slowly declined over time. Somewhere in the middle of their careers Terry had overtaken him and towards the end even Vidic was better (both of those improved over time as is more normal). Neither were as good as a young Rio, but Rio's passing had declined so much that they'd overtaken him.
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Rio was the best in the world in 06/07 as well.
And as for the comparison with Terry, like I said in my post above a young Rio was a better ball-player than Terry ever was, but he slowly but surely declined over the years so Terry was comfortably better later on in their careers.
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This thread is now just a 00s-based chat about top CBs.
As for van Dijk, he’s having a great season. Superb performance that’s possibly a step up from recent seasons.
As for van Dijk, he’s having a great season. Superb performance that’s possibly a step up from recent seasons.
Is it really bad era in general, or is it a bad United era? I see this all the time, but I feel like its glorifying the past a bit.
Salah first beat Ronaldo and Shearer´s 31 goals in the league by scoring 33, before Haaland smashed it by scoring 36. Fair to say they can hang with Rooney, Henry and Drogba.
In the last five CL seasons, an English team has won i three times, by three different clubs. In 2000-2010, only Man Utd and Liverpool won it. Once each.
I agree that there are fewer traditional, elite number 9s, but this is partly due to Messi's success as a false 9 in a great Barcelona team, which changed the way football is played. Players like Havertz and Firmino embody this evolution. Even Manchester City won a league title with De Bruyne and Foden playing "striker".
Better technique and more consistent is crap. He’s spent some of his prime seasons having a regular nightmare and finishing as low as 5th. The two I mentioned were so imperious to the point where nobody could even score against United for 3 months and Chelsea only conceded 15 goals in an entire season. Ferdinand’s technique and style was more similar, also a superior player.
I don’t believe Henry is overrated but the league titles argument I mentioned is still relevant. Serial league title winners get massively underrated and one off winners overrated. Same with City in recent years where Stones, Mahrez and others barely get in the conversation for all time in their position but their consistency is absolutely phenomenal going year after year. Meanwhile players like Hazard who won the league a couple of times then drop off a cliff for a year are. VVD is a good example of this, he was average in 22/23 and wasn’t that consistent last season. Don’t talk to me about consistency, he’s just not as good as the players I’ve mentioned but is overrated because he’s the best CB Liverpool, a bigger club than nearly every other in the country, have ever had in the PL era.
Calling this a weak era is banality writ large. Nostalgic guff that just comes across as ‘better in my day’ (when my team were really good).
I listen to a lot of football podcasts and there’s a general consensus that this is one of the best seasons we’ve had in years because we have such a strong ‘middle class’ of sides who have broken through the glass ceiling and disrupted the conventional top end of the table. We also see City in decline which is good news for everyone, largely due to their nefarious operations.
We also have 3 sides in the top 8 of the CL league so qualify automatically because of the quality of coaching and players those sides have put together.
The PL is in rude health.
I listen to a lot of football podcasts and there’s a general consensus that this is one of the best seasons we’ve had in years because we have such a strong ‘middle class’ of sides who have broken through the glass ceiling and disrupted the conventional top end of the table. We also see City in decline which is good news for everyone, largely due to their nefarious operations.
We also have 3 sides in the top 8 of the CL league so qualify automatically because of the quality of coaching and players those sides have put together.
The PL is in rude health.