Virgil van Dijk | Performances

[DannyCAFC]

yawn. well done, you managed to discuss something more than once and have been wrong each time.

OK.

Why would you put Hojlund & Havertz up as a comparison against Rooney & Drogba rather than the likes of Kane & Aguero? It's proof you have an obvious bias and can't enter into a reasoned discussion with all the facts laid out on the table.

So again, please continue with your strawman debate and maybe someone else will engage with you. I prefer to talk with actual adults.

 

[adexkola]

As someone who watched probably every single minute of Carvalho’s time at Chelsea, which was roughly 60-70% of his peak, I couldn’t disagree more. He was better on the ball, he was a smooth operator, but he was never at any point the better defender or better overall player than Terry in the period they played together.

It's the cliche "you're a better defender the more silky you look" bollocks

That's why VVD for some reason has leapfrogged Vidic

 

[rimaldo]

wenger 10 years ago (2015 from the big brains that can’t work out that van dijk joined liverpool in 2018.) it’s only got worse since then. has there been the odd good striker over the past 10 years? yes. but games between the big guns are always cagey and strikers don’t get much of a sniff at the best of times. and the quality of strikers at smaller teams is even worse. it’s easier for van dijk than it was for ferdinand.

Arsène Wenger says European football must change the way it educates players if it is to start producing top-class centre forwards again.

The Arsenal manager believes there is a diminished pool of talented strikers because of the way the game has developed - but he thinks this trend can be reversed.

“There are a few reasons [for it],” said Wenger. “One of the basic ones is that, linked with the centre forwards, we develop less centre backs in Europe. Before, when the teams practised in the park on bad pitches in winter, we had to lift the ball, we had to go behind, and today the pitches are all perfect.

“In training there is only passing so we can only develop midfielders now. All the education is about passing on the ground on perfect pitches.

“Before, when you watched training sessions and even games in the 50s, you had to kick the ball from the back to the front. You had to get in behind and fight with the centre back to win the ball to have a chance to retain it.

“That is not the case anymore and the fact that the whole conditions have changed means that we have not adapted in our education. We have just developed players who are good passers of the ball. We don’t have any more tough defenders or any more people who are willing to go into the fight.

“If we adapt our education then yes [it can change]. Maybe we have to create specific schools for strikers. You can coach it because you can coach everything.

 

[2mufc0]

No one ever tried to say they weren't as good because of that though?

Not sure if you are trying deliberately twist what i was saying but just to be clear, we are rating the best PL defenders, whilst league titles are not the only factor having won it on multiple occasions and consecutively carries extra weight when judging the players.

In my original post i did acknowledge he is one of the best.

 

[DennisReynolds]

Not sure if you are trying deliberately twist what i was saying but just to be clear, we are rating the best PL defenders, whilst league titles are not the deciding factor having won it on multiple occasions and consecutively carries extra weight when judging the players.

You're the one who said people were giving VVD an extra title or two. No one is doing that.

You're putting too much weight on team trophies in my view. Liverpool missing out on a title or two by a point doesn't make Van Dijk any worse off as a player. It's basically a lazy way of judging players who we have more than enough footage of to assess.

I'd agree if you were comparing against someone who was playing for a Europa league level team, but I don't see the trophies argument as being important.

 

[Shane88]

He will be 34 next season. Show signs of it, you cnut.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Don't disagree the chemistry was perfect. I remember when we went 14 games without conceding a goal, that's an incredible achievement, between the 3 league campaigns between 07-10 we only conceded 74 goals in 114 games.

That's an insane stat.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

Vidic is really underrated, think the whole Torres thing unfairly hit his reputation, it's not like all top defenders have not been put on their arse by tricky attackers at some point.

As for 'Virgil' it can't be denied he's one of the best, but won't ever be in the absolute top tier due to league trophies, he will probably end up with two while his counterparts are multiple winners including winning them consecutively in cases.

Vidic was also having one of the best seasons a centre-back has ever had in England before that Torres game, a higher peak than Ferdinand ever reached. He played all the games and led the team in that record for not conceding run and scored a few goals too - Ferdinand missed a lot of games that year through injury. It's mad the revisionism of that season in people's memories because one game. He then missed the next game through suspension and they lost 2-0 and nearly lost the next one too but for Macheda's stunner against Villa to make it 3-2.

So Vidic had one bad day in the office that Liverpool game and in the other 33 games he played that season, he had 23 clean sheets as United's main defender! Incredible season. 70% of the time he's turning up the opposition can't score.

 

[goatmeister]

Didn't he go for like 18 month without being dribbled past or something?
Considering how high Liverpool backline is under Klopp (and still under Slot), that's insane.
That funny Lautaro Incident where he's through for 1-v-1 against VVD but he just turned around, tails behind his legs.
And they way he defended against 2-v-1 against Son and Sissoko without touching the ball.
I have never seen any CB being this dominant and impervious.

Free football on the telly has been changing in my home country.
We used to watch Serie A, then EPL and Bundesliga (for a brief moment) and La Liga and back to EPL again now.
I missed Baresi era, but we did managed to catch Maldini, Costacurta, Thuram, Nesta, Cannavaro, Vidic, Rio, Terry, Ramos, Puyol, Pique, Kompany, to Saliba, VVD now.
Again, just my opinion VVD is best.
This is coming from me who thinks Costacurta was the better CB than Maldini but Maldini is the better defender/player than Costacurta.

 

[2mufc0]

That's an insane stat.

You also have to look at in the context that they only had Carrick screening infront of them which makes it even more impressive.

Vidic was also having one of the best seasons a centre-back has ever had in England before that Torres game, a higher peak than Ferdinand ever reached. He played all the games and led the team in that record for not conceding run and scored a few goals too - Ferdinand missed a lot of games that year through injury. It's mad the revisionism of that season in people's memories because one game. He then missed the next game through suspension and they lost 2-0 and nearly lost the next one too but for Macheda's stunner against Villa to make it 3-2.

So Vidic had one bad day in the office that Liverpool game and in the other 33 games he played that season, he had 23 clean sheets as United's main defender! Incredible season. 70% of the time he's turning up the opposition can't score.

Those stats are something else and that's compared to arguably VVD's best season.

 

[CunningLinguist]

He would be by far the most damaging loss for Liverpool out of the three out-of-contract players. I've never seen strikers that consistently scared of a centre-back as they are of this guy. Pool's prospects completely changed the moment he arrived. Here's hoping he fecks off soon.

 

[Oranges038]

All this talk about Vidic, I remembered this one moment where it was a 2v1, he cut out the angle for the pass and then made the block on the shot. 2.34 in this video, it's incredible defending.




Also he did this to Kyle Walker




VVD and his invisible aura doesn't even come close.

 

[DannyCAFC]

Vidic was also having one of the best seasons a centre-back has ever had in England before that Torres game, a higher peak than Ferdinand ever reached. He played all the games and led the team in that record for not conceding run and scored a few goals too - Ferdinand missed a lot of games that year through injury. It's mad the revisionism of that season in people's memories because one game. He then missed the next game through suspension and they lost 2-0 and nearly lost the next one too but for Macheda's stunner against Villa to make it 3-2.

So Vidic had one bad day in the office that Liverpool game and in the other 33 games he played that season, he had 23 clean sheets as United's main defender! Incredible season. 70% of the time he's turning up the opposition can't score.

These stats don't really tell us anything we didn't know, though. Vidic was much more aggressive (both in nature and could somewhat afford to be with Ferdinand alongside covering) and so was always around the ball more. Hence the ridiculous number of blocks, clearances etc.

I always see this as an argument against Van Dijk with people saying he doesn't have to do much defending, but marshalling a high-line and defending space in behind is arguably one of the most difficult aspects of defending. It just doesn't lead itself to insane stats.

We can use Maguire as an example - in games where United or England have defended deep and compact he looks like a monster because he ends up getting his body in the way of shots and heading tonnes of crosses away from the box, but when he has to defend high and in space he often makes critical mistakes that lead to goals.

I'm not saying Vidic is that level of course not, he's right there alongside Van Dijk peak-for-peak for me, but simply illustrating that him and VVD are two different styles of defenders asked to play in very different ways, and so the stats can be misleading.

 

[Red the Bear]

That happened a fair amount of time ago. Whenever he's the best is still an argument though — and I don't think he has the time to settle that one. Although if he does a Silva and plays at a high level in PL up until, say, 39-ish...


I generally enjoy his analysis but, as always when Liverpool is concerned, he seamlessly crosses into the full-time cringe territory.

I suppose the argument of putting him above the likes of ferdinand is whether the overall inferiority of his partnerships compared to other pl greats( ferdinand had another all time great next to him etc etc) justifies such a proposition.

 

[golden_blunder]

Didn't he go for like 18 month without being dribbled past or something?
Considering how high Liverpool backline is under Klopp (and still under Slot), that's insane.
That funny Lautaro Incident where he's through for 1-v-1 against VVD but he just turned around, tails behind his legs.
And they way he defended against 2-v-1 against Son and Sissoko without touching the ball.
I have never seen any CB being this dominant and impervious.

Free football on the telly has been changing in my home country.
We used to watch Serie A, then EPL and Bundesliga (for a brief moment) and La Liga and back to EPL again now.
I missed Baresi era, but we did managed to catch Maldini, Costacurta, Thuram, Nesta, Cannavaro, Vidic, Rio, Terry, Ramos, Puyol, Pique, Kompany, to Saliba, VVD now.
Again, just my opinion VVD is best.
This is coming from me who thinks Costacurta was the better CB than Maldini but Maldini is the better defender/player than Costacurta.

Probably in the same way that statistics say Lindelof wasn’t dribbled past

 

[harms]

Didn't he go for like 18 month without being dribbled past or something?
Considering how high Liverpool backline is under Klopp (and still under Slot), that's insane.
That funny Lautaro Incident where he's through for 1-v-1 against VVD but he just turned around, tails behind his legs.
And they way he defended against 2-v-1 against Son and Sissoko without touching the ball.
I have never seen any CB being this dominant and impervious.

Free football on the telly has been changing in my home country.
We used to watch Serie A, then EPL and Bundesliga (for a brief moment) and La Liga and back to EPL again now.
I missed Baresi era, but we did managed to catch Maldini, Costacurta, Thuram, Nesta, Cannavaro, Vidic, Rio, Terry, Ramos, Puyol, Pique, Kompany, to Saliba, VVD now.
Again, just my opinion VVD is best.
This is coming from me who thinks Costacurta was the better CB than Maldini but Maldini is the better defender/player than Costacurta.

It’s not that insane — it says just as much about his playing style as it says about his, unquestionably, outstanding one on one ability. He literally avoids take ons whenever possible. It’s not a bad thing — it works for him, but when you’re actively avoiding confrontations, you’re going to get a lot less of them.

There’s also that thing called reputation. He’s at least as strong and as fast as any striker he comes across, has great coordination and timing, so they understandably fear to even attempt to dribble past him. That’s something that was earned by merit but, again, it plays against that picture of that solitary van Dijk-shaped rock that breaks down wave after wave of opposition’s attacks as they try to dribble past him… and fail 100% of the time.

 

[Andycoleno9]

Amazes me how people don’t appreciate how good Rio was at times. The guy went something like 28 games without committing a foul and 53 games without a yellow card. Plus he was absolutely rapid and ridiculously good on the ball.

Yeah, same here.
ut on the other hand, i am not that surprised when i see how much praise get defenders who act like madman and tackle right and left.

 

[RobinLFC]

All this talk about Vidic, I remembered this one moment where it was a 2v1, he cut out the angle for the pass and then made the block on the shot. 2.34 in this video, it's incredible defending.




Also he did this to Kyle Walker




VVD and his invisible aura doesn't even come close.

I could post a clip of Van Dijk against Mbappe and it would equally as impressive. Remember another one where he canceled out an entire 2v1, think it was against Spurs.

Any top tier defender has had situations like those. I don’t think it’s even possible to put those players in a rightful order, but Van Dijk certainly has his place amongst them.

 

[adexkola]

"league titles don't matter in evaluation"

The pressure to perform in a team pushing for the title is immense. The pressure as a defender (knowing 1 mistake can prove damaging to your team's chances) is even more.

VVD has been a bit unlucky to be in 2 Liverpool teams that have missed out on titles at the last day, but I would still give him credit for pushing City all the way and ensuring Liverpool were there. But you can't put him above defenders like Rio and Vidic and Terry that went the distance multiple times having to anchor mean defenses when their team's attacks were spluttering.

Vidic marshalling that team to multiple 1-0 wins in 2009
Terry anchoring those dual Mourinho trophies, including the season they conceded only 15
Even City's 2018-19 season, that run of 18 wins was punctuated by a bunch of clean sheets where Kompany and Laporte/Stones did their part. Other trophies matter too of course.

It's a bit lazy to say, 5>2 so Wes Brown > VVD. However being a part of a defense that gets a team over the line when it comes to trophies, is not negligible when ranking at the end of the day.

 

[pascell]

I could post a clip of Van Dijk against Mbappe and it would equally as impressive. Remember another one where he canceled out an entire 2v1, think it was against Spurs.

Any top tier defender has had situations like those. I don’t think it’s even possible to put those players in a rightful order, but Van Dijk certainly has his place amongst them.

He has a place, but its a lot lower than Vidic.

Vidic has 6 PL and 1 CL to van Dijks 2 PL (after this season) and 1 CL (possibly 2 again). Does van Dijk have enough years in the tank to better Vidic PL win record given he's 34 in summer? I doubt it.

 

[Vault Dweller]

"league titles don't matter in evaluation"

The pressure to perform in a team pushing for the title is immense. The pressure as a defender (knowing 1 mistake can prove damaging to your team's chances) is even more.

VVD has been a bit unlucky to be in 2 Liverpool teams that have missed out on titles at the last day, but I would still give him credit for pushing City all the way and ensuring Liverpool were there. But you can't put him above defenders like Rio and Vidic and Terry that went the distance multiple times having to anchor mean defenses when their team's attacks were spluttering.

Vidic marshalling that team to multiple 1-0 wins in 2009
Terry anchoring those dual Mourinho trophies, including the season they conceded only 15
Even City's 2018-19 season, that run of 18 wins was punctuated by a bunch of clean sheets where Kompany and Laporte/Stones did their part. Other trophies matter too of course.

It's a bit lazy to say, 5>2 so Wes Brown > VVD. However being a part of a defense that gets a team over the line when it comes to trophies, is not negligible when ranking at the end of the day.

Agreed.

 

[antohan]

I gather people are arguing over the ranking of Rio, Vidic and Van Dijk.

My take on it is Rio-Vidic is far and away the best EPL partnership and as such walks into the All-Time XI.

When you move to them as individuals, Van Dijk compares somewhat favourably in isolation. Not as good as either at any particular strong point, but better than them at their weaker spots, those where they complemented each other so well. So overall more complete, well rounded.

Putting it differently, if you had to form a CB partnership and had no idea who the partner would be, you would likely pick VVD to be on the safe side. In real life that doesn't really happen, but you can still argue over several seasons form, injuries and suspensions make you reshuffle CB partners and VVD is a rock-solid partner for all the random shite CBs Liverpool have had.

Still, all-time it's Rio-Vidic and Van Dijk doesn't improve that. He is just about the only one that could let Terry into the conversation because he is definitely not in it next to Rio. So there's also that, arguing for Van Dijk in a roundabout way to introduce other options.

 

[RobinLFC]

He has a place, but its a lot lower than Vidic.

Vidic has 6 PL and 1 CL to van Dijks 2 PL (after this season) and 1 CL (possibly 2 again). Does van Dijk have enough years in the tank to better Vidic PL win record given he's 34 in summer? I doubt it.

There's been enough explanation in this thread on the last few pages alone that it's quite pointless to compare players based on a trophy count. It plays its part but it's not like Van Dijk is trophyless. He doesn't need to better 6 PL's to be considered a better defender than Vidic. If you're comparing them as "PL greats" or most decorated players then sure it becomes a bigger part of the puzzle, but purely from a players POV, not so important.

A better question to ask yourself is whether Utd would've won less than those 6 PL's if Van Dijk was playing instead of Vidic. In my opinion, no. But I've got a feeling you'll disagree and that's fine, agree to disagree then.

 

[LordSpud]

He's the best CB of the PL era but some of the red cards he should've had are shocking. Especially when compared to some of the piss poor ones Casemiro was getting.

Here's 5 disgraceful ones:

 

[Real Name]

He's been putting childs in place whole season.

Most other players would have got a red in a second. Richarlison does overplay it but its an elbow to the head as clear as you get.

 

[DannyCAFC]

He has a place, but its a lot lower than Vidic.

Vidic has 6 PL and 1 CL to van Dijks 2 PL (after this season) and 1 CL (possibly 2 again). Does van Dijk have enough years in the tank to better Vidic PL win record given he's 34 in summer? I doubt it.

I think you'll find Vidic has 5 PL titles.

I guess that means he's below John Stones, who does have 6 (as well as a CL).

 

[Real Name]

He's the best CB of the PL era but some of the red cards he should've had are shocking. Especially when compared to some of the piss poor ones Casemiro was getting.

Here's 5 disgraceful ones:

Is he though?

 

[adexkola]

I think you'll find Vidic has 5 PL titles.

I guess that means he's below John Stones, who does have 6 (as well as a CL).

Vidic, Rio, VVD, Stam and Terry are tier 1 and Stones along with Carragher is tier 3 (his best performances are Tier 2 but lacks the consistency of the best). Adams, Campbell, Carvalho, Kompany, Dias are Tier 2.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

I think you'll find Vidic has 5 PL titles.

I guess that means he's below John Stones, who does have 6 (as well as a CL).

Stones just about played half of the games in those six title seasons.

In the season Vidic was badly injured, we lost the title on GD.

Stones ability/quality/position vs the best CHs has always been overrated, especially by the media. A very good PL CH, not close to the elite.

 

[RobinLFC]

In the season Vidic was badly injured, we lost the title on GD.

So even without him you still were able to comfortably compete for the PL title? If anything that's an argument in favor of the opinion that trophy count holds little importance.

 

[MadDogg]

Vidic was also having one of the best seasons a centre-back has ever had in England before that Torres game, a higher peak than Ferdinand ever reached. He played all the games and led the team in that record for not conceding run and scored a few goals too - Ferdinand missed a lot of games that year through injury. It's mad the revisionism of that season in people's memories because one game. He then missed the next game through suspension and they lost 2-0 and nearly lost the next one too but for Macheda's stunner against Villa to make it 3-2.

So Vidic had one bad day in the office that Liverpool game and in the other 33 games he played that season, he had 23 clean sheets as United's main defender! Incredible season. 70% of the time he's turning up the opposition can't score.

Vidic was unbelievably good for about half that season, one of the best half seasons any player has ever had in PL history and arguably the best half season I've ever seen any defender in the world have. But his form had already been dropping for a month or two before that match against Liverpool. He wasn't bad, but he certainly wasn't as good as he'd been earlier. I specifically remember posting on this forum that I was worried going into that match and that I hoped Vidic would play more like he had earlier in the season rather than his more recent performances.

That drop in performances in the second half of the season is why I've always rated Rio's 07/08 a little higher than Vida's 08/09. Didn't quite reach the same peak (very close though), but he maintained it over the entire season bar one bad game against...some mid- or low-table striker who I can't remember now.

 

[DannyCAFC]

Vidic, Rio, VVD, Stam and Terry are tier 1 and Stones along with Carragher is tier 3 (his best performances are Tier 2 but lacks the consistency of the best). Adams, Campbell, Carvalho, Kompany, Dias are Tier 2.

Stones just about played half of the games in those six title seasons.

In the season Vidic was badly injured, we lost the title on GD.

Stones ability/quality/position vs the best CHs has always been overrated, especially by the media. A very good PL CH, not close to the elite.

This isn't an argument for John Stones, I'm merely pointing out how pointless it is to use league title wins as a ranking metric which seems to be a theme in this thread... especially when literally all the names being thrown around like Rio, Terry, Vidic, Stam, Adams, Campbell, Kompany have all won multiple already and VVD is probably about to join them.

The difference between winning 5 or 6 league titles vs 2 as an individual player in a team sport is utterly irrelevant, the criteria to differentiate them should centre around peak ability, consistency and longevity given they have all checked the box of winning PL titles.

 

[Fobal]

I would never understand why we believe that at certain level the differences between the quality and talent of players it's as clear as we would like to be when we preffer someone above others.
Some will have certain different atributes better than others, or better said characteristics, yet at the Top, Elite level players are more or less in the same spectrum, we can preffer one above another, yet that's it.

Perhaps it's easier to feel these suppose gaps when a player is like George Best, when these sort of fellas "look" clearly a step above the majority of colleagues in his role, but only with these mavericks I can feel it closer to a more tangible thing.
All the players mentioned were great and pretty on pair, of course some will get more or less praise given with whom they play, in what succesfull or bad period from his clubs, injuries, bad relantionships with coaches can create stains difficult to erase, there are many nuances but at the end of the day I see more differences in style/atributes that I (anyone) might preffer above others, than cut clear levels between many of the usual comparisons among Elite players.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Van Dijk is definitely the best defender of all time. Liverpool is also a far better city than Manchester.

I'm sure the caf will agree with me.

Think VAR wouldn't have overturned a red card if given yesterday, but my God does Richarlison's entire face and neck tattoo just scream, SOMEONE ELBOW ME.

 

[Ish]

yep. just hard but fair play. like that pickford tackle.

 

[Maluco]

Vidic was also having one of the best seasons a centre-back has ever had in England before that Torres game, a higher peak than Ferdinand ever reached. He played all the games and led the team in that record for not conceding run and scored a few goals too - Ferdinand missed a lot of games that year through injury. It's mad the revisionism of that season in people's memories because one game. He then missed the next game through suspension and they lost 2-0 and nearly lost the next one too but for Macheda's stunner against Villa to make it 3-2.

So Vidic had one bad day in the office that Liverpool game and in the other 33 games he played that season, he had 23 clean sheets as United's main defender! Incredible season. 70% of the time he's turning up the opposition can't score.

This backs up something I have always thought when watching him play - how passive he is. He sits back constantly, to get more time on the ball and to rarely get one on one with defenders. His partner is always the more aggressive CB, while he, quite literally, is a further 5 metres back trying his best not to engage.

He is very good, but the very best defenders defended on the front foot and were aggressive and proactive at cutting out danger and winning their challenges. He is extremely cautious with his positioning, which sometimes serves him very well.

His much lower number of interceptions and tackles seems to back up this idea. The argument that they are a more dominant team doesn’t wash, because they are also conceding more goals.

 

[B20]

This backs up something I have always thought when watching him play - how passive he is. He sits back constantly, to get more time on the ball and to rarely get one on one with defenders. His partner is always the more aggressive CB, while he, quite literally, is a further 5 metres back trying his best not to engage.

He is very good, but the very best defenders defended on the front foot and were aggressive and proactive at cutting out danger and winning their challenges. He is extremely cautious with his positioning, which sometimes serves him very well.

His much lower number of interceptions and tackles seems to back up this idea. The argument that they are a more dominant team doesn’t wash, because they are also conceding more goals.

You can't compare the numbers of modern defenders to numbers from 15-20 years ago. The game has changed dramatically. No in the modern game is even getting close to those numbers. That's not what defending is like these days.

 

[stepic]

Kanye knows where he ranks compared to Ferninand and Vidic.

 

[Red_toad]

He will be 34 next season. Show signs of it, you cnut.

Will be playing in Saudi next season, isn't that enough

 

[Maluco]

You can't compare the numbers of modern defenders to numbers from 15-20 years ago. The game has changed dramatically. No in the modern game is even getting close to those numbers. That's not what defending is like these days.

It still doesn’t detract from his cautious playing style and his efforts to avoid exposing himself. He also still has a mistake in him even with that more passive approach, mistakes that are usually glossed over by Carragher in commentary.

He is a very, very good player, don’t get me wrong, but the praise he gets is way over the top, especially when it is often his partner doing all the hard work.

He is not in the top 50 for interceptions this season, and he isn’t in the top 100 for successful tackles (both while teammates are). It’s not all about the era he is playing in.