Virgil van Dijk | Performances

[Righteous Steps]

Eras aside, there are few setups that ask more of center backs than Klopps Liverpool.

Constant high line and most attacking full backs in the league. Somewhat compensated for by a compact and combative midfield, but still, so many defensive actions to be made with no support near by and so much of the field behind you to defend.

Lovren, as an example, just couldn't hack that. Excellent defender in a compact low block with less space behind to defend and more proximity to the other defenders. A nightmare in the kind of setup Klopp preferred.

Terry in comparison had an even more compact midfield in front of him, far less attacking fullbacks, sat much deeper and relied greatly on Carvalho to chase down any runs in behind whenever they were pushed up.

Van Dijk would have been fine in Mourinho's Chelsea setup. Terry would be torn apart in a Klopp back four.

Which is why Ferdinand for me is the only center back comparable to Van Dijk.

Agree Ferdinand Is the only one you can put in any era and he’ll excel, someone like McGrath too actually going further back.

 

[Righteous Steps]

VVD hasn't led his team to enough seasons with low enough goals conceded stats. I will accept that medals cannot be used as a barometer, but when your a CB - and especially the 'leader' - your defensive line need to have super stats to be consider a great. He hasn't done this consistently enough.

A lot of that is due to setup though the Chelsea side under Mourinho which led record for minimum goals conceded in a season had legendary Cb’s but also played in one of the greatest low block systems of all time under Mourinho, plus two DMs a lot of the time in front of that back four.

 

[Bubz27]

The highest points total United achieved winning the league with Rio in the side was 90 - Liverpool have twice finished on higher points than this and yet come 2nd simply due to the dominance of City.

So Rio played in a much more competitive league then? And won more in that competitive league, seeing off threats from Chelsea and City, something Van Dijk hasn't done with any regularity.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

This is a rubbish argument. “A more difficult era”?

The likes of Terry and Ferdinand played against Ronaldo, Rooney, Drogba, Shearer, Henry, Torres, Aguero, Bergkamp, van Nistelrooy, van Persie, Owen, Tevez, Suarez….and that is JUST in the Premier League.

Nowadays, strikers like Solanke and Watkins are getting 19 goal seasons in the PL.

It’s a lot of nonsense to say it’s a more difficult era. The former greats played against far more talented strikers on a weekly basis, and that’s before even talking about the greats of the game they had to play in Europe.

Better strikers back then sure. But the overall strength of the league is clearly better now (which makes sense considering how much richer all of these clubs are relative to other leagues compared to 20 years ago)

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

A lot of that is due to setup though the Chelsea side under Mourinho which led record for minimum goals conceded in a season had legendary Cb’s but also played in one of the greatest low block systems of all time under Mourinho, plus two DMs a lot of the time in front of that back four.

Yeah I hate the goals conceded reference. Anyone who watched those Chelsea teams knew that was a collective effort and style from the entire team where if they scored they just weren’t going to bother being risky and attacking after. And then Mou would reinforce with even more defensive subs as the game went on. It was incredible cohesion from the entire team

 

[redallover87]

So Rio played in a much more competitive league then? And won more in that competitive league, seeing off threats from Chelsea and City, something Van Dijk hasn't done with any regularity.

Rio never went up against a cheating oil club that was also managed by pep and Rio was never in a team that needed to be incredibly consistant,apart from going up against chelseas 95 point side.It took a huge amount of cheating to stop van dyke from winning 3 prem titles,and he is probably far from finished.

The biggest myth in football is that the prem used to be more competetive,that is just false.It is essentially the same apart from smaller teams now have atleast 1 or 2 quality players instead of complete dross,and liverpool and man city being more relentless at winning game after game in a few specific seasons.The fight for european places,relegation battles,battle for the title etc are all incredibly tight.

 

[Maluco]

Better strikers back then sure. But the overall strength of the league is clearly better now (which makes sense considering how much richer all of these clubs are relative to other leagues compared to 20 years ago)

I am not even sure about that, to be honest. We can see clearly at United that more money doesn’t necessarily equate to more quality.

In fact, quite a lot of teams (Everton, Newcastle, Leicester, West Ham) would probably say they had more quality in the past. United definitely did, and teams like Spurs and Villa (who are doing well) aren’t anything special.

 

[Solius]

Rio never went up against a cheating oil club that was also managed by pep and Rio was never in a team that needed to be incredibly consistant,apart from going up against chelseas 95 point side.It took a huge amount of cheating to stop van dyke from winning 3 prem titles,and he is probably far from finished.

You could also say that Rio would have three Champions Leagues if not for Pep.

 

[redallover87]

I am not even sure about that, to be honest. We can see clearly at United that more money doesn’t necessarily equate to more quality.

In fact, quite a lot of teams (Everton, Newcastle, Leicester, West Ham) would probably say they had more quality in the past. United definitely did, and teams like Spurs and Villa (who are doing well) aren’t anything special.

Ofcourse everton had a better team in the past,they are terrible at the moment.Look at the everton side that came 4th in 2005,it was much less impressive than tottenham.Also david moyes got a club in the top 4,not exactly the sign of a strong league.Tottenham have struggled to get champions league football
some seasons while having kane,son,moura etc southampton had mane,lallana,van dyke not that long ago.

Newcastle do not have a great striker like shearer,but in other positions they are comparable,hence why they are not fighting for top 4,because other teams have taken those places.Leicesters best team was 8 years ago,that is van dykes era,not Rio's era.West ham are similar quality.Not long ago brighton came from nowhere and had MacAllister and Caecado.A team with fernandes,garnacho,rashford,mount,errikson only came 8th last year.

 

[kaiser1]

All those that take such issue with VVD being in the conversation for best CB in PL history - please explain why.

I'm not saying he is definitively the best like Carragher is (which is nonsense and smacks of bias), but the general dismissal of him on this forum also just comes across as very obvious bias with him being a Liverpool player.

He's clearly world-class still and has been for 7-8 years now, has everything you would want in a modern CB and on top of that has team honours, individual awards and a decent amount of longevity to boot (considering Jaap Stam is often put in the conversation here and he had barely 3 seasons in the PL...)

No he hasn't been for 7-8yrs

 

[kaiser1]

Rio never went up against a cheating oil club that was also managed by pep and Rio was never in a team that needed to be incredibly consistant,apart from going up against chelseas 95 point side.It took a huge amount of cheating to stop van dyke from winning 3 prem titles,and he is probably far from finished.

The biggest myth in football is that the prem used to be more competetive,that is just false.It is essentially the same apart from smaller teams now have atleast 1 or 2 quality players instead of complete dross,and liverpool and man city being more relentless at winning game after game in a few specific seasons.The fight for european places,relegation battles,battle for the title etc are all incredibly tight.

Roman Chelsea was all that and more. Yet Rio and Vidic won 3 league titles in a row

 

[Righteous Steps]

Roman Chelsea was all that and more. Yet Rio and Vidic won 3 league titles in a row

That’s a lot to do with having Ronaldo Rooney Scholes Tevez in front of them though and each other beside , VVD has been part of teams who have lost the league by 1 point while gaining 99, higher than any point tally of any team Rio or Vidic. Those marginal point differences that stops him winning the league are not down to him being the lesser of Laporte Dias or Rio and Vidic.

 

[Cassidy]

Team achievements don't matter.

Van Dijk has at least 4 seasons of GOAT level performances by now.

You are underrating today's forwards (and of the last 8+ years) and overrating players of the past. Van Dijk's played against Messi, Neymar, Suárez, Lewandowski, Kane, Son, Mbappé, Agüero, Sánchez, Ibrahimovic, Hazard, Sterling, Mahrez, Haaland, Bruno, Ronaldo, Palmer, etc.

Also, how is defending easier today? Defenses have to play a high line, press much more, play out from their own penalty area, etc.

He's also played in a much more difficult era than Rio, Vidic, Terry, and the others.

Palmer... clutching at straws much?

In my opinion defending is a bit easier today because teams defend more as a team and have better defensive shape and structures, I also disagree with you on the forwards but its a matter of opinion, many of the players you are mentioning like Bruno, Sterling etc are sub par players

I disagree with the last statement, Terry and Rio played against Messi and Ronaldo in their prime by the way

 

[Cassidy]

That’s a lot to do with having Ronaldo Rooney Scholes Tevez in front of them though and each other beside , VVD has been part of teams who have lost the league by 1 point while gaining 99, higher than any point tally of any team Rio or Vidic. Those marginal point differences that stops him winning the league are not down to him being the lesser of Laporte Dias or Rio and Vidic.

Salah, Mane, Firminho, Fabinho, Trent, I mean the Liverpool team Klopp built was very good. The United team was better yes including the CBs, there is a reason they had the best defensive record in Europe for around 3 years.

 

[Cassidy]

Eras aside, there are few setups that ask more of center backs than Klopps Liverpool.

Constant high line and most attacking full backs in the league. Somewhat compensated for by a compact and combative midfield, but still, so many defensive actions to be made with no support near by and so much of the field behind you to defend.

Lovren, as an example, just couldn't hack that. Excellent defender in a compact low block with less space behind to defend and more proximity to the other defenders. A nightmare in the kind of setup Klopp preferred.

Terry in comparison had an even more compact midfield in front of him, far less attacking fullbacks, sat much deeper and relied greatly on Carvalho to chase down any runs in behind whenever they were pushed up.

Van Dijk would have been fine in Mourinho's Chelsea setup. Terry would be torn apart in a Klopp back four.

Which is why Ferdinand for me is the only center back comparable to Van Dijk.

United under Fergie played a setup that asked more of the CBs

 

[redallover87]

Roman Chelsea was all that and more. Yet Rio and Vidic won 3 league titles in a row

That chelsea side never broke rules,and the man city side was more consistant,meaning there was less margin for error to compete with them.Van dyke would have 3 prem titles,only cheating robbed him of 2 titles.Let's not ignore the cheating.

 

[redallover87]

Salah, Mane, Firminho, Fabinho, Trent, I mean the Liverpool team Klopp built was very good. The United team was better yes including the CBs, there is a reason they had the best defensive record in Europe for around 3 years.

Im pretty sure that liverpools defensive record in 19/20 is second only to the park 2 buses in everygame chelsea 04/05 side.

Mane,salah and firmino is the best front 3 in terms of goals per game.Klopp's system used a much higher line that asked much morw of the centre backs and goalkeeper.It was the opposite of mourinho's approach.

If it was not for cheating,liverpool would have won 3 titles,a ucl,100 point season and gone unbeaten,including a 2019 prem and ucl double,and as much as we hate them,i cannot stand cheating far more.

 

[redallover87]

You could also say that Rio would have three Champions Leagues if not for Pep.

Pep never cheated in the ucl finals,but man city did cheat for many years in the prem.If it was not for zidane,ronaldo and the most successful ever real madrid side ever,they would have win 3 european cups too.

 

[Dave Smith]

Im pretty sure that liverpools defensive record in 19/20 is second only to the park 2 buses in everygame chelsea 04/05 side.

Mane,salah and firmino is the best front 3 in terms of goals per game.Klopp's system used a much higher line that asked much morw of the centre backs and goalkeeper.It was the opposite of mourinho's approach.

If it was not for cheating,liverpool would have won 3 titles,a ucl,100 point season and gone unbeaten,including a 2019 prem and ucl double,and as much as we hate them,i cannot stand cheating far more.

Nope.

• Chelsea, 2004-05, 15 goals
• Arsenal, 1998-99, 17 goals
• Chelsea, 2005-06, 22 goals
• Manchester United, 2007-08, 22 goals
• Liverpool, 2018-19, 22 goals
• Manchester City, 2018-19, 23 goals
• Chelsea, 2008-09, 24 goals
• Manchester United, 2008-09, 24 goals
• Chelsea, 2006-07, 24 goals
• Liverpool, 2005-06, 25 goals

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

I am not even sure about that, to be honest. We can see clearly at United that more money doesn’t necessarily equate to more quality.

In fact, quite a lot of teams (Everton, Newcastle, Leicester, West Ham) would probably say they had more quality in the past. United definitely did, and teams like Spurs and Villa (who are doing well) aren’t anything special.

Completely disagree, you can just go look at squads from now and compare them to 20 years ago from a standard bottom table team and it's night and day mostly. Most PL clubs now can pay relatively big fees to get talent from any other league in Europe. West Ham's squad today blows away their counterpart from 2004/2005.

Kudus, Paqueta, Fullkrug, Alvarez, Soucek are all full fledged internationals that either start or contribute every game

Then you have players like Todibo and Summerville who are highly regarded younger players they brought in. Along with former expensive signings like Soler and Wan Bissaka who were bought at still a good age after it didn't quite work out at their old big time clubs.

The West Ham squad from 2004 had basically a young Michael Carrick (big time prospect as a player), and that's about it as far as players with any sort of pedigree.

 

[Maluco]

Completely disagree, you can just go look at squads from now and compare them to 20 years ago from a standard bottom table team and it's night and day mostly. Most PL clubs now can pay relatively big fees to get talent from any other league in Europe. West Ham's squad today blows away their counterpart from 2004/2005.

Kudus, Paqueta, Fullkrug, Alvarez, Soucek are all full fledged internationals that either start or contribute every game

Then you have players like Todibo and Summerville who are highly regarded younger players they brought in. Along with former expensive signings like Soler and Wan Bissaka who were bought at still a good age after it didn't quite work out at their old big time clubs.

The West Ham squad from 2004 had basically a young Michael Carrick (big time prospect as a player), and that's about it as far as players with any sort of pedigree.

I think you are overrating some of those players based on their reputation as internationals. Kudus and Paqueta are their only two standout players. Bowen is a quality player. The rest are similar to quality they have had in the past.

They have had Lampard, Cole, Di Canio, Wanchope, Ferdinand, Payet, Rice, Parker, Defoe, Carrick, Tevez, Johnson, Mascherano, Wright, Benayoun, Sinclair etc…

Lots of great players over the PL years. There are still no Balon D’Or winners at West Ham.

 

[roonster09]

Im pretty sure that liverpools defensive record in 19/20 is second only to the park 2 buses in everygame chelsea 04/05 side.

Mane,salah and firmino is the best front 3 in terms of goals per game.Klopp's system used a much higher line that asked much morw of the centre backs and goalkeeper.It was the opposite of mourinho's approach.

If it was not for cheating,liverpool would have won 3 titles,a ucl,100 point season and gone unbeaten,including a 2019 prem and ucl double,and as much as we hate them,i cannot stand cheating far more.

"We hate them" ?

Liverpool fans hate Liverpool FC?

 

[njred]

"We hate them" ?

Liverpool fans hate Liverpool FC?

I’m confused too. Funny though.

 

[Bubz27]

Rio never went up against a cheating oil club that was also managed by pep and Rio was never in a team that needed to be incredibly consistant,apart from going up against chelseas 95 point side.It took a huge amount of cheating to stop van dyke from winning 3 prem titles,and he is probably far from finished.

The biggest myth in football is that the prem used to be more competetive,that is just false.It is essentially the same apart from smaller teams now have atleast 1 or 2 quality players instead of complete dross,and liverpool and man city being more relentless at winning game after game in a few specific seasons.The fight for european places,relegation battles,battle for the title etc are all incredibly tight.

What were Chelsea with Roman and Jose? Cheating oil club with one of the best managers in the world? You can't just say "apart from Chelseas 95 point side."

And it's not a myth at all. In this era teams have consistently hit 95+ points. That is clear evidence it's been easier to take points from other teams for the top 2 teams.

 

[roonster09]

I’m confused too. Funny though.

It's sad, Liverpool fans pretending to be Manutd fans to praise Liverpool.

 

[DannyCAFC]

So Rio played in a much more competitive league then? And won more in that competitive league, seeing off threats from Chelsea and City, something Van Dijk hasn't done with any regularity.

Is that really true? I believe most would argue that the strength in depth in the PL is greater these days than it was 12+ years ago. City literally weren't a threat until they won the title in 11/12 so that is nonsense also.

But once again, how is this laid on Van Dijk as something 'he' hasn't achieved as an individual when we are talking about 25+ man squads? It's a silly argument to pin team success as the main criteria when discussion individual awards / rankings.

Regardless like I said, given more points are required these days to win the PL he is very lucky to only have 1 league title in his 7 years there considering their 2nd place points totals in 18/19 and 21/22 are greater than any tally United managed during Rio's reign.

 

[Bubz27]

Is that really true? I believe most would argue that the strength in depth in the PL is greater these days than it was 12+ years ago. City literally weren't a threat until they won the title in 11/12 so that is nonsense also.

But once again, how is this laid on Van Dijk as something 'he' hasn't achieved as an individual when we are talking about 25+ man squads? It's a silly argument to pin team success as the main criteria when discussion individual awards / rankings.

Regardless like I said, given more points are required these days to win the PL he is very lucky to only have 1 league title in his 7 years there considering their 2nd place points totals in 18/19 and 21/22 are greater than any tally United managed during Rio's reign.

The points distribution in the leagues Rio played in points to a more competitive league. And maybe seeing City off is an exaggeration, but he did comfortably beat them in the title race after that.

Liverpool fans are experts at convincing people team success doesn't matter when discussing quality players. It absolutely does. If you've got two very talented players, close in terms of ability, I want the one who's got his team over the line on more occasions. I hope you can see that I'm not claiming it's the main criteria, but it's more important than Liverpool fans say.

 

[DannyCAFC]

The points distribution in the leagues Rio played in points to a more competitive league. And maybe seeing City off is an exaggeration, but he did comfortably beat them in the title race after that.

Liverpool fans are experts at convincing people team success doesn't matter when discussing quality players. It absolutely does. If you've got two very talented players, close in terms of ability, I want the one who's got his team over the line on more occasions. I hope you can see that I'm not claiming it's the main criteria, but it's more important than Liverpool fans say.

Interesting - how so? What metric are we using here exactly to come to this conclusion?

The average points scored by teams finishing bang in the middle of the table (i.e. 10th & 11th) since 17/18 is +3.3 points higher than Rio's era.

Average points needed to finish top 4 is +3.0.

Average points needed to win the league (i.e. 2nd place total) is +3.4. And this is heavily skewed by the Covid year, without that it's +5.3.

If we're talking primarily about the gap between top and bottom this doesn't point to a wholly more competitive league - what it might suggest is the teams right at the bottom are less competitive with the title challengers (and I don't even know if this would be true as arguably the 3 worst PL teams in history played during the early to mid 2000's), but this doesn't equal a greater amount of actually competitive games across the season.

 

[Solius]

Pep never cheated in the ucl finals,but man city did cheat for many years in the prem.If it was not for zidane,ronaldo and the most successful ever real madrid side ever,they would have win 3 european cups too.

Eh you don’t know about that squad. Pep doped twice as a player, then you had the Cugat Barca blood scandal. He’s muddied the waters as a manager to the point where you can’t ever fully trust anything he’s done is legit.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

This is a rubbish argument. “A more difficult era”?

The likes of Terry and Ferdinand played against Ronaldo, Rooney, Drogba, Shearer, Henry, Torres, Aguero, Bergkamp, van Nistelrooy, van Persie, Owen, Tevez, Suarez….and that is JUST in the Premier League.

Nowadays, strikers like Solanke and Watkins are getting 19 goal seasons in the PL.

It’s a lot of nonsense to say it’s a more difficult era. The former greats played against far more talented strikers on a weekly basis, and that’s before even talking about the greats of the game they had to play in Europe.

Strange argument to then use Solanke and Watkins pejoratively when Andy Johnson, Marcus Stewart and Kevin Phillips scored 20+ goals in the league. Middling strikers can score lots of goals for mid-table teams, that’s got nothing to do with the strength of the league or the ability of a centre back.

Also you’re putting Bergkamp and Aguero in the same era? Bergkamp had already played a few seasons for Ajax before Aguero was born. Aguero has surely played against Van Dijk more, only three years in age between them. Any era looks more impressive when you can add in players that are 20 years apart in age. Van Dijk also played against Ronaldo in the PL.

 

[Bubz27]

Interesting - how so? What metric are we using here exactly to come to this conclusion?

The average points scored by teams finishing bang in the middle of the table (i.e. 10th & 11th) since 17/18 is +3.3 points higher than Rio's era.

Average points needed to finish top 4 is +3.0.

Average points needed to win the league (i.e. 2nd place total) is +3.4. And this is heavily skewed by the Covid year, without that it's +5.3.

If we're talking primarily about the gap between top and bottom this doesn't point to a wholly more competitive league - what it might suggest is the teams right at the bottom are less competitive with the title challengers (and I don't even know if this would be true as arguably the 3 worst PL teams in history played during the early to mid 2000's), but this doesn't equal a greater amount of actually competitive games across the season.

United were an excellent team. Liverpool have been an excellent team. Liverpool's nest seasons have accumulated more points than United's best seasons. Either the points were easier to come by or Liverpool are just much better than United have ever been under Fergie.

 

[Nevilles.Wear.Prada]

City and Liverpool have been the big rivals for about the last decade. City have 6 titles to Liverpool's 1 (soon to be 2, admittedly) and City have conceded less goals in the league in 6 of the 8 years Van Dijk has been at Liverpool, but he's portrayed as the all conquering colossus.

He's a great defender but not the best.

Someone in this very thread ranked him among nesta. Don't bother, i checked. No white texts.

 

[Yagami]

van Dijk is great (I wanted us to splash the cash for him back at Southampton) but, for me, Rio is the undisputed number one.

After him, you have van Dijk, Vidic, Stam, Terry. I wouldn't argue against any ranking of those four from spots 2-5.

 

[roonster09]

Strange argument to then use Solanke and Watkins pejoratively when Andy Johnson, Marcus Stewart and Kevin Phillips scored 20+ goals in the league. Middling strikers can score lots of goals for mid-table teams, that’s got nothing to do with the strength of the league or the ability of a centre back.

Also you’re putting Bergkamp and Aguero in the same era? Bergkamp had already played a few seasons for Ajax before Aguero was born. Aguero has surely played against Van Dijk more, only three years in age between them. Any era looks more impressive when you can add in players that are 20 years apart in age. Van Dijk also played against Ronaldo in the PL.

Saying Ronaldo played against VVD in PL is like some league one or two players saying they played with and against Edgar Davids, J league players playing against Iniesta.

 

[DannyCAFC]

Saying Ronaldo played against VVD in PL is like some league one or two players saying they played with and against Edgar Davids, J league players playing against Iniesta.

So a bit like saying Ferdinand and Terry played across Bergkamp then, given he was also basically a decade past his prime.

 

[Andersonson]

VVD is one of the best defenders the league has seen. He is up there with Sol, Adams, Kompany, Terry, Rio and the rest. Naming the best of that lot is not easy but VVD is certainly a big contender

 

[Hammondo]

The points distribution in the leagues Rio played in points to a more competitive league. And maybe seeing City off is an exaggeration, but he did comfortably beat them in the title race after that.

Liverpool fans are experts at convincing people team success doesn't matter when discussing quality players. It absolutely does. If you've got two very talented players, close in terms of ability, I want the one who's got his team over the line on more occasions. I hope you can see that I'm not claiming it's the main criteria, but it's more important than Liverpool fans say.

I don't think points distribution clearly says how competitive something is.

 

[Hammondo]

United were an excellent team. Liverpool have been an excellent team. Liverpool's nest seasons have accumulated more points than United's best seasons. Either the points were easier to come by or Liverpool are just much better than United have ever been under Fergie.

Liverpool were all about highs and lows though, Fergie was consistency.

 

[reddyornot]

In the BBC poll I put him in last place, just to even up all the Liverpool fans voting for him.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

Saying Ronaldo played against VVD in PL is like some league one or two players saying they played with and against Edgar Davids, J league players playing against Iniesta.

I agree Ronaldo was past his peak but he was still third top scorer in the league that season, so that’s a big exaggeration.

So a bit like saying Ferdinand and Terry played across Bergkamp then, given he was also basically a decade past his prime.

but this was the point. I see it all the time people adding players of massive varying age to big up the ‘era’ they’re talking about.